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  1. #1
    Community Member ferd's Avatar
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    Default Are YOU happy with the current AC/PRR/Evasion system

    Discuss.

    Certain builds can prevail in the "new" system, most can't at higher levels.

    We have had little feedback from the developers in countless threads about this. So it must be they are.

    I for one see a need to change some aspects of it.
    Last edited by ferd; 06-02-2014 at 11:52 AM.


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  2. #2
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    No. While I like the idea of the layered defense I think it's stupid that armor class is the least important layer. I question why Dodge even exists as it's no different from what your DEX bonus is supposed to represent in your AC.

    PRR is a good concept but it's current implementation is bad. Heavy armor should be a lot better than it is. We have too much adding to PRR from other sources, it waters down the value of armor.

    The game needs another defensive pass, hopefully done before a developer who hates monks.
    Last edited by Bridge_Dweller; 06-02-2014 at 11:02 AM.

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    We actually have had quite a bit of feedback from the developers. They know about the problems with heavy armor builds on epic elite. When the class balance survey was going on they mentioned it. And in last week's DDOcast Cordovan said something along the lines of "we're aware that traditional tanking in Epic Elite is a bit off" and "the best builds on epic elite are those that take the least amount of hits possible".


    That being said, no of course I'm not happy about it. I don't think anyone is. Right now AC and PRR are pretty much useless on EE, while Dodge/Incorpeality/Evasion are effective on all difficulties. It's totally imbalanced. There's 1 or 2 builds that are heads above everyone else on epic elite. Everyone else is sub-par. That's bad for the game because it vastly limits character customization...DDO's best attribute.

    Heavy armor should allow you to shrug off some hits on epic elite. Robed casters shouldn't be more survivable than heavy armored toons.

    And heavy armor toons still have basically have no way to reduce spell damage. This is a huge problem, they need some kind of spell mitigation to rival evasion. Possibly inherent elemental resists that come with wearing heavy armor. Heavy/medium armor wearers could get X amount of stacking bonuses to elemental resistence which is tied to the enhancement bonus of the armor worn.

    Oh and mountain stance must be nerfed, sorry monk lovers I hate nerfs too but it's ridiculous that a monk gets to be awesome at every single defensive category, get evasion, AND get a +1 crit multiplier with absolutely no downsides.
    Last edited by axel15810; 06-02-2014 at 11:17 AM.

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  4. #4
    Community Member Nestroy's Avatar
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    No.

    Long story short - AC is near-to senseless. You either get it up to 220-240 AC or forget it completely. PRR as a system is OK, but on EE looses out against evasion/dodge/ghostly/blur... Taking hits and reducing damage 40% means getting hit 120 instead of 200 damage on EE. Ghostly/Blur/Evasion/Dodge and respective feats, ED additives and action points set get a toon to only get hit 25% of the time - basically reduces the sustained damage from 200 to 50 points... As long as PRR / AC in combination does not do the same, the system is just plain worse than the evasion/dodge/ghostly/blur one. With the addition that the later also saves against traps and spells. -> The whole damage mitigation system is unblanaced in favor of those with evasion.

  5. #5
    Community Member haulindonkey's Avatar
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    Default Why wear heavy armor or have adamantine body??

    Quote Originally Posted by Bridge_Dweller View Post
    No. While I like the idea of the layered defense I think it's stupid that armor class is the least important layer. I question why Dodge even exists as it's no different from what your DEX bonus is supposed to represent in your AC.

    PRR is a good concept but it's current implementation is bad. Heavy armor should be a lot better than it is. We have too much adding to PRR from other sources, it waters down the value of armor.

    The game needs another defensive pass, hopefully done before a developer who hates monks.
    ^^^^ So much this.... Heavy armor and adamantine body should give at least double (maybe triple) the amount of PRR that they currently grant. And AC should count for something in EE quests/raids. /signed for another dev pass on defense
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by ferd View Post
    Discuss.

    Certain builds can prevail in the "new" system, most can't at higher levels.

    We have had zero feedback from the developers in countless threads about this. So it must be they are.

    I for one see a need to change some aspects of it.

    For any system, this will always be the case. Dodge/Displacement/Blur with PRR are (currently) all much more important than AC for EE content. I run around with evasion, 25% dodge (75% with uncanny dodge clickie), 25% incorporeal, 20% (or 9 mins of 50%) blur, 100-110 AC, and 109 PRR as a rogue and take very little damage. I have +36 AC from epic Past lives, and this AC (100-110) seems to be very helpful on EN or EH content. Keep in mind mobs have a maximum miss chance due to AC, so the "perfect" tank will still get hit.

    I think the dev's may already looking into making heavy armor (and med) more useful. I doubt they will scrap the current system, as that will cause new problems (and a thousand nerf complaints) for certain builds.

  7. #7
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    No. I'm annoyed that I always see vastly more robed characters in EE content than I do heavy armor-wearing characters. AC takes the most effort to aquire, but it's the least useful and I greatly dislike that.

  8. #8
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    To be fair, I DID saw heavy plated tank stand his ground for 15 minutes in Red/Green light entrance room with 3 mobs attacking him (as he was very slowly taking them down) while he waited for the rest of the wiped party to reenter (EE - deathwyrm).

    Problems were:

    1. He was absolutely end game high end elite player. completionist, all the gear you can have, all the stats, past lives, you name it.
    2. His damage output was terrible. To even get to the numbers where AC matters in these situations, you have to invest heavily and in the end - you are left with very low attack. He was killing the battlerager for like 10 minutes (and the rager was on 60% when he started). That is just way too long.


    If you specialize in dodge/incorp/displ/evasion, you dont have to sacrifice almost NONE of your dmg output. And you get some PRR on the way.
    If you specialize in AC/PRR, you have to sacrifice most of your dmg. Or you simply dont get any good number. And one way or the other, you loose evasion.

    So, signed - Defense systems in DDO need rebalancing badly.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post
    Oh and mountain stance must be nerfed, sorry monk lovers I hate nerfs too but it's ridiculous that a monk gets to be awesome at every single defensive category, get evasion, AND get a +1 crit multiplier with absolutely no downsides.
    There is a huge downside, they cant use shields. Shields are the best defense in the game.

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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by viktorserak View Post
    And one way or the other, you loose evasion.
    I think this is the real dealbreaker right now. AC already comes with more opportunity cost than Dodge to achieve less effective mitigation...but then its only mitigation against physical attacks, whereas Dodge+Evasion gives you protection against most magical attacks too. AC is going to have to have some kind of "ERR" (elemental resist rating), separate from and stackable with the active-blocking feats for shields and the new ship buffs, or else there's going to be a huge hole in their defensive abilities and they wont be able to tank if any mob does magic damage (ie, every single boss fight).

  11. #11
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridge_Dweller View Post
    No. While I like the idea of the layered defense I think it's stupid that armor class is the least important layer. I question why Dodge even exists as it's no different from what your DEX bonus is supposed to represent in your AC.

    PRR is a good concept but it's current implementation is bad. Heavy armor should be a lot better than it is. We have too much adding to PRR from other sources, it waters down the value of armor.

    The game needs another defensive pass, hopefully done before a developer who hates monks.
    I can agree with this, but not the monk hating part.

    I think different defensive sources should be a little more exclusive. Dodge should be monk builds AC with limited PRR for certain defensive attacks. AC should scale up from 0 with rags to max base for heavy armor with tank builds able to increase it higher through enhancements while PRR would be dependent on how much AC you have. Blur/incorporeal/invisibility should be something that rogue type builds are able to acquire through enhancements while its limited to find in game. DR should be scaled better for barbarians through enhancements and based on class levels.

    What bothers me, instead of fixing the AC system, dodge/blur/PRR/etc is the best defensive system. There is no loss in DPS and doesn't require tons of twists, specific enhancements, gear or anything unlike it does with AC to get it to be anything meaningful. It adds to the power creep and a necessity for survivability for every build.

  12. #12
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Dodge comes with a cap and PRR does not. Capping dodge but not PRR allows for the pajama builds to gain similar benefits from prr as plate wearers, but the plate wearer cant have the same dodge as pajama builds. Plate also sacrifices more to get their defenses.

    PRR should be capped due to what armor/shield combo is worn. Higher PRR should only be acheived through wearing plate and holding a shield.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  13. #13
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    No I'm not happy, if anything I am flat out pee'd off with it all!

    It would help if the devs would stop making content that REQUIRES Evasion/crazy saves/massive self healing/etc. They are making the content and they are the ones who have created the problem by making the monsters in EE the way they have so far. Having a system where somebody in pajama's has more AC than somebody in heavy armor is out right stupid beyond belief! All armor types need massive increases in the amount of PRR they grant and how much AC they give (Flawless Black Dragon should give something like 100AC imho not a poxy 30 ish).

    For gods sake Turbine make it so that every decent build is viable at end game and restore one of the best things about DDO... CHARACTER CUSTOMISATION! The ability to create so many builds is one of the big reasons that people come to DDO because they can make the character they want to play, then they get to epics and get royally <insert name for female dog here> slapped!

    EDIT - Oh and another thing would you stop with the frickin' undead already! I am bored poo-less with undead at end game

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  14. #14
    2015 DDO Players Council Seikojin's Avatar
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    I am not happy with it. It needs some major work.
    AC: Current: Proven that even nearing 250-350 is pretty much the same, and even then it isn't viable since you would be in the quest longer than an hour (or 6 if you have u22 buffs).
    Needs: AC needs to provide benfits in other areas more aggressively than it currently does. Without decreasing the abilities of mobs, AC of 175 -275 should be the range of immortality for EE. Meaning at 175 you start seeing a difference. And every 10 points in AC = 10% more misses in EE. And 275 ac should be the top end you can hit by taking the best gear+pas lives put together on top of most, if not all the AC based abilities.
    PRR: Current: It helps mitigate some physical damage and has a curve that makes getting 50% reduction tough.
    Needs: It needs to get a boost from Heavier types of armor. Just rebalance the curve or have armor tiers add a basic boost Like medium offers 5PRR per armor tier, and heavy offers 10PRR per tier.
    Evasion (Dodge): Current: Per point, can provide more than any form of mitigation for physical attacks (ranged or otherwise). Caps at 25%.
    Needs: More cap boosting options in heavier armor. Like Dex can increase dodge cap for every 3 from its bonus? Or Existing Stances adding dex bonus to dodge cap?
    Absorption: Current: Doesn't exist outside of stoneskin options.
    Needed: Medium and Heavy armor could provide some. However this would be an additional layer. If they did, I would say 5% per tier for mediums, and 10% per tier for heavies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Dodge comes with a cap and PRR does not. Capping dodge but not PRR allows for the pajama builds to gain similar benefits from prr as plate wearers, but the plate wearer cant have the same dodge as pajama builds. Plate also sacrifices more to get their defenses.

    PRR should be capped due to what armor/shield combo is worn. Higher PRR should only be acheived through wearing plate and holding a shield.
    While this is true, the problem is beyond dodge.

    Good AC means losing DPS and achieving an overall mediocre defense, given the prevalence of elemental damage.

    Dodge/incorp + evasion reaches similar if not better damage avoidance levels at no cost and it is a good all around defense.

  16. #16
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    While this is true, the problem is beyond dodge.

    Good AC means losing DPS and achieving an overall mediocre defense, given the prevalence of elemental damage.

    Dodge/incorp + evasion reaches similar if not better damage avoidance levels at no cost and it is a good all around defense.
    Dodge isnt the issue. PRR is the issue. Allowing pajama builds higher dodge but similar PRR benefits is a major error.

    Capping PRR much lower for pajama builds fixes most if not all issues youre bringing up here. When a Dodge/incorp+evasion build gets hit in melee it would take considerably more damage, just get hit less.

    Or they could uncap dodge for plate wearers (meaning getting the same cap as a pajama build) - and then give them more DPS as well so they can be on par with monks wearing three molecule thick robes.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoner81 View Post

    It would help if the devs would stop making content that REQUIRES Evasion/crazy saves/massive self healing/etc.
    The massive amounts of AOE spell damage we see since Fall of Truth is kinda stupid. I agree with you.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post

    Heavy armor should allow you to shrug off some hits on epic elite. Robed casters shouldn't be more survivable than heavy armored toons.
    It does, and they're not. The primary problem with heavy armor is not (primarily) that it doesn't protect you against physical damage enough (although this is A problem). I know plenty of people with tank type characters who can just SIT in groups of mobs on eE and not take an appreciable amount of damage. The primary problem is with EVASION and SPELL DAMAGE. You can have all the resistance against physical damage you want, it won't help you when 3 casters spam you with 400+ damage fireballs or you get hit with 900+ damage from a trap. Even if you have a spectacular reflex save you're still taking 200+ damage a hit. If you're not a tank in a tank stance with 2000+ hp you're dead.

    When it comes to physical damage resistance, heavy armor is the bomb. Until you get nuked to death. THIS is why monks are so popular right now--they can soak up an acceptable amount of melee damage while IGNORING the Massive Nukage.

    And Turbine keeps boosting up tanks--and ONLY tanks--while ignoring heavy armor DPS builds who DON'T WANT TO BE STUCK USING A SHIELD AND A TANK STANCE AS THEIR ONLY SURVIVAL OPTION.

    Let's see, what other brilliant ideas have they had, oh yeah, how about the "we'll give monsters epic destiny spells that can one-shot people and then not put any kind of saving throw on it". Brilliant! How long did that one last, two weeks? And rightfully so, because it was a HORRIBLE idea.

    Here's some GOOD ideas:

    Get RID of the MOB SPAM. Notice how in the old Eberron quests a "large group" of mobs is like . . . 4 mobs. Then do Friends in Low Places in Wheloon. A SMALL group of mobs is FIFTEEN MOBS. This stuff makes zero difference to casters with AOE damage and CC. It makes a HUGE difference to people with MELEE toons. It also makes a huge difference to people with older computers so they're not getting massive framerate drops every time a group of mobs spawns! (Heck, people with NEWER computers have this issue in this game!) If you just HAVE to have more mobs in a quest then have MORE GROUPS not BIGGER GROUPS. Oh, but casters will just breeze through yadda yadda . . . no, they won't. More groups of fewer mobs will actually be limiting on casters because of that whole "spell points" thing. Killing occasional big groups of mobs is MORE SP-efficient for casters than having to kill lots of small groups. Oh, they'll just invis past? Monsters can HEAR you now. Drop a cleric or shaman-type with a huge Listen and have that mob throw True Seeing or See Invis on itself the second it hears something. Boom, it sees you. Boom, it starts spamming you with stuff. One good Cometfall or a Flesh To Stone and that formerly invisible caster is HOSED. Yet an actual stealth-based character can sneak on by.

    Oh, and while you're at it, start getting rid of some of the shrines. There are too many dang shrines in a large majority of the new quests. I've done EE runs with a BRAND NEW FIRST LIFE CRAPPY UNDERGEARED CASTER and I still skipped half the shrines. This should not happen. Or start putting some of those shrines behind strength levers and ultra-high-DC locks/traps/secret doors so you at least need someone else to open them for you.

    So simple, yet it accomplishes so much. Melees aren't spammed with way more mobs than they can deal with at once. Casters are actually looking at SP attrition again which makes it more efficient to support melees than just spam-nuke everything. Stealth characters actually get a significant benefit (they can skip a lot of that stuff). And heavy armor DPS builds once more become viable because they can rush in, murderize the one caster, then CLEAVE THE HECK out of the 3 melee mobs before those mobs can return the favor. Get a quick heal and it's off to the next group.

    The large majority of the older quests WERE designed this way--and they were a LOT better for it, too.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Dodge isnt the issue. PRR is the issue. Allowing pajama builds higher dodge but similar PRR benefits is a major error.

    Capping PRR much lower for pajama builds fixes most if not all issues youre bringing up here. When a Dodge/incorp+evasion build gets hit in melee it would take considerably more damage, just get hit less.

    Or they could uncap dodge for plate wearers (meaning getting the same cap as a pajama build) - and then give them more DPS as well so they can be on par with monks wearing three molecule thick robes.
    Capping PRR would fix all issues except one. If AC was to be fixed to be useful in EE there would still be an issue since monks could still get super high AC like plate wearers but not have to give up evasion or dodge.

    They could go a couple ways with this. Let monks have the best of both defensive systems as they do now but incorporate some major downside into earth stance like melee DPS penalty or movement speed restriction.

    Or keep mountain stance as is but cap the AC and PRR bonuses to a certain number that when maxed would not exceed what a full plate sword and board tank could achieve.

    Either way I think the +1 crit multiplier should be moved to fire stance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde View Post
    Get RID of the MOB SPAM. . . .
    Oh come on . . . don't you know them dozen of respawning red-name mobs is the key to an enjoyable gaming experience?

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