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  1. #41
    The Hatchery CThruTheEgo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maelodic View Post
    Ranged Improved Precise Shot Coup De Grace (not tested - won't have time, can somebody test if ranged coup de grace applies to imp. precise shot?):
    It was reported in another thread that it does.
    White Feather Sniper: dps focused, 62DC paralyzing arrows human ranged ranger/The Divine Cuisinart: human tempest in divine crusader/Hassan's Assassin: 81DC halfling assassin/The Count of Monte Cristo: human swashbuckler/Dubbell O'Seven: WF artificer
    Abandoned builds: Totally Bass Ackwards/Santa's Little Slayer

  2. #42
    Community Member Maelodic's Avatar
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    Update: Switched Force of Personality with Empower Healing Spell
    ~Sarlona~ - Proud Member of The Unrepentant
    Quote Originally Posted by Scraap View Post
    Praise Dog, and Maelodic, his prophet.

  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maelodic View Post
    Update: Switched Force of Personality with Empower Healing Spell
    Very good choice, and a great bard build!


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  4. #44
    Community Member Katharra's Avatar
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    Hello,

    Can I ask will this build have any problems with to-hit, since it seems str is still the stat used for it?

  5. #45
    Community Member Maelodic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katharra View Post
    Hello,

    Can I ask will this build have any problems with to-hit, since it seems str is still the stat used for it?
    In my testing I had no issues with to-hit. Precision along with a moderate strength does just fine. I was a bit worried about it too- but I was happily surprised to find I was hitting things just fine. Silverdance starts with a low STR too but does alright.
    ~Sarlona~ - Proud Member of The Unrepentant
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  6. #46
    The Hatchery CThruTheEgo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katharra View Post
    Hello,

    Can I ask will this build have any problems with to-hit, since it seems str is still the stat used for it?
    With the changes to AC and to-hit, you only need your to hit stat (str, dex, etc.) in the 30s to hit reliably even in EE. There's really no reason why to-hit should be a problem for any build anymore.
    White Feather Sniper: dps focused, 62DC paralyzing arrows human ranged ranger/The Divine Cuisinart: human tempest in divine crusader/Hassan's Assassin: 81DC halfling assassin/The Count of Monte Cristo: human swashbuckler/Dubbell O'Seven: WF artificer
    Abandoned builds: Totally Bass Ackwards/Santa's Little Slayer

  7. #47
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    How much would you lose/gain from losing capstone and adding 2 rogue levels instead? Perhaps more importantly, how would the build have to be changed in order for it to work if I wanted to do this?

    I'm guessing i'd have to increase my INT somehow in order to get enough skill points to add trapping skills to the build? If so where would i best be taking the stat points from to increase INT? Assuming a +4 INT tome and 36pt build i'd guess I should dump STR entirely to increase my INT?

  8. #48
    Community Member Maelodic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orberron View Post
    How much would you lose/gain from losing capstone and adding 2 rogue levels instead? Perhaps more importantly, how would the build have to be changed in order for it to work if I wanted to do this?

    I'm guessing i'd have to increase my INT somehow in order to get enough skill points to add trapping skills to the build? If so where would i best be taking the stat points from to increase INT? Assuming a +4 INT tome and 36pt build i'd guess I should dump STR entirely to increase my INT?
    You'd lose:
    2 CHA
    2 DEX
    1 Doublestrike
    1 Attack Damage
    1 Enhancement Bonus to Weapon
    Improved Inspire Courage +3
    50 Spell Points
    1 Fourth level spell
    1 Fifth level spell
    2 Sixth level spell

    You'd Gain:
    1d6 Sneak Attack
    Trap Skills
    (In enhancements)
    Possible Haste Boost, Venomed Blades, Damage Boost, and 2d6 more Sneak Attack

    For Search/disable device while still leveling perform/balance/UMD, you'd need 10 INT as a human, or 12 INT as any other race. For open lock, you'd need an extra 2 INT or just a +2 tome at 7 for enough points for most content.

    Worth it? Probably. Am I going to do it? Nope.
    ~Sarlona~ - Proud Member of The Unrepentant
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maelodic View Post
    Worth it? Probably. Am I going to do it? Nope.
    I wasn't criticizing the build or anything like that and i apologize if it seemed like i was. I'm tring my toon soon and wanted to take advantage of the trapping gear i have in my bank.

  10. #50
    The Hatchery CThruTheEgo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maelodic View Post
    Worth it? Probably. Am I going to do it? Nope.
    I'm not sure I would say it's probably worth it. If you want trap skills, then yes, it's not too much sacrifice. But that's the only real benefit you get out of it. The rogue enhancements you mentioned are also valuable but will take points away from the bard trees, which have a lot to offer, so they definitely have a cost and it really depends on the goals of the build whether that cost is worth it or not.

    I wouldn't do it either but that's mainly because I play plenty of trap capable builds already and it's nice to have a break from the inventory/hotbar management that comes along with that job.
    White Feather Sniper: dps focused, 62DC paralyzing arrows human ranged ranger/The Divine Cuisinart: human tempest in divine crusader/Hassan's Assassin: 81DC halfling assassin/The Count of Monte Cristo: human swashbuckler/Dubbell O'Seven: WF artificer
    Abandoned builds: Totally Bass Ackwards/Santa's Little Slayer

  11. #51
    Community Member Kalevor's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    I really like this build, seems very powerful and funny. Nice break down too.

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    Come play Dungeons and Dragons! In heroic play you will face the evil minions of Demons... When and if you make it to Epic levels you face even greater threats. Threats like... giant rats and wolves!

  12. #52
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    Taking 2 Rogue levels for Trapper skills is best choice for me. Also take Weapon Finesse feat to get DEX to hit with any Swashbuckler enchanted weapon (Of course Weapon Finesse alone gives DEX to hit already but no damage). It seems DEX or CHA is best stat for damage rolls. But STR gives nothing at all (depends on your build but generally no effect (unless you go for Overwhelming Critical)). DEX is better choice in my opinion.

    Also 2 Rogue levels gives access to Bleed Them Out and Venomed Blades. I find Bleed is useful at the end. Also you occasionally render enemies helpless. So, taking Sneak Attack dices isn't a bad idea at all. Sickles and Rapiers good things to have. New Epic 3BC Sickle is nice. Icerazor can help with some added CC and there is nice Rapiers around. Of course both needs different sort of Improved Critical feat but Fred is lovely guy lol.

    Great build by the way.

    Edit: Fixed some wrongs.
    Last edited by Rodosto; 06-13-2014 at 02:45 PM.

  13. #53
    Community Member Maelodic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodosto View Post
    DEX is better choice in my opinion.
    This build actually works similarly as DEX based - if you want no-fail reflex saves then something like this would be the way to go. You get so much from DEX and you get so much from CHA- going either with this build works rather well. DEX Based Dragonmarked Halfling would give you some sweet heals for no downside (other than not being able to carry as much) and give you a cheap way to get DEX to damage on throwing weapons- something that synergies automatically with Swashbuckler- Exploit Weakness and the stance make throwing potent even without feats.

    It's hard to find feat placement for Weapon Finesse as a race other than Human- though it's not hard to get reliable to-hit with STR in the 30s and precision on all the time.

    Great build by the way.
    Thank you very much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orberron View Post
    I wasn't criticizing the build or anything like that and i apologize if it seemed like i was. I'm tring my toon soon and wanted to take advantage of the trapping gear i have in my bank.
    I wasn't seeing it as criticism- I was happy to provide you with an alternative.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalevor View Post
    I really like this build, seems very powerful and funny. Nice break down too.

    Kal
    Thank you very much Kal.

    Quote Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo View Post
    I'm not sure I would say it's probably worth it. If you want trap skills, then yes, it's not too much sacrifice. But that's the only real benefit you get out of it. The rogue enhancements you mentioned are also valuable but will take points away from the bard trees, which have a lot to offer, so they definitely have a cost and it really depends on the goals of the build whether that cost is worth it or not.
    I think more than anything, haste boost is the big thing that Rogue 2 gives that is the real kicker there. Having three different action boosts should allow you to keep them going constantly through quests- especially if you twisted in Extra Action Boost. Haste Boost feels like awesome-mode to me- I can't really see it as anything else.

    I wouldn't do it either but that's mainly because I play plenty of trap capable builds already and it's nice to have a break from the inventory/hotbar management that comes along with that job.
    Yeah, yeah. Bards get tons of skill points so fitting traps in is rather easy- I like being pure though, and I'm glad I have an avenue to do that on such a diverse character.
    Last edited by Maelodic; 06-14-2014 at 12:45 AM.
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  14. #54
    Community Member Maelodic's Avatar
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    Default Halfling Dragonmarked Throwing Varient

    A lot of people have been requesting variants of my build- I'll be posting these here as they will be using the same concept. I don't really want to do a full write up or do as much gear planning- but I would like to give people a reference point or something to refer back to, I don't really want to write up things a hundred times over.

    This first one is how I would make a pure bard thrower- I call this a variant because the focuses are the same: Survivability, physical damage, instakill, fascinate


    True Neutral Halfling 20 Bard
    ......28 | 32 | 34 | 36 Point
    STR 8 | 10 | 10 | 10
    DEX 18 | 18 | 20 | 20 + Levels
    CON 16 | 16 | 15 | 16
    INT 8 | 8 | 8 | 8
    WIS 8 | 8 | 8 | 8
    CHA 14 | 15 | 14 | 14

    Feats (In Order)
    Point Blank Shot
    Precise Shot
    Dragonmark of Hjeals
    Proficiency: Shuriken
    Improved Critical: Throwing
    Improved Precise Shot
    Shuriken Expertise
    Quicken
    Combat Archery
    E-Lasting Inspiration
    Inspire Excellence
    E-Doubleshot

    Skills (5 Points per level)
    Perform, Use Magic Device, Heal, Balance, Haggle

    Enhancements
    Halfling - 15 Points
    Cores 1-3
    Skillful Thrower
    Dragonmarks
    Break out the Leaches

    Swashbuckler - 42 Points
    All Cores
    On Your Toes 1
    Tavern Shanties 3
    Deflect Arrows 2
    Fast Movement
    Sword Dance
    Doubleshot
    Skirmisher
    Resonant Arms
    Wind At My Back
    Second Skin 3
    Exploit Weakness
    Coup De Grace

    Spellsinger - 17 Points
    All cores up to Music of the Dead
    Magical Studies 3
    Lingering Songs 3
    Wand Heightening 3
    Wand and Scroll Mastery 3

    Warchanter - 6 Points
    2 Cores
    The Poetic Edda 2
    Enchant Weapon

    Epic Destiny
    Shiradi Champion
    At least the following:
    Whirling Wrists
    Prism/Rainbow/Double Rainbow
    Otto's Whistler
    Nerve Venom

    You could put the rest into DEX if you want- you get tasty reflex saves and even tastier higher chance to do extra shuris.

    Twists:
    Brace for Impact
    Reign
    Dance of Flowers (nothing in offhand) or Unearthly Reactions


    Commentary/FAQ
    Drow vs Halfling?
    Halfling is the only way a Bard can get DEX to Damage with throwing- sitting at something around 54 DEX at max level, you'll really want DEX to damage and the two feats are definitely worth it. Thrower builds aren't nearly as feat starved

    Dragonmarks?
    Since you're already investing in the halfling tree for Skilled Thrower- a single feat gives you some pretty nice healing power. You already do pretty well with Cure Critical but you'll do even better when you get a ton of free stuff.
    Break Out The Leaches alone is quite honestly worth the feat and AP cost. It's a wonderfully amazing ability.

    Dance of Flowers?
    You will be able to qualify for this twist if you make two changes, and follow one rule:
    1. Do not wear a buckler (switch enhancement around to gain +10% Doubleshot and -10% Dodge)
    2. Wear a Robe/Outfit instead of light armor (-15 PRR, similar AC)
    Rule- Always use Shurikens
    1.5[W] is one of the best twists out there- using this is basically dropping a ton of your defensive power for a DPS increase- which may be okay because you're ranged and can fascinate in a pinch. You get +10% doubleshot for not wearing anything in your offhand- so this can't be all bad.

    How play?
    Early:
    Earlier levels just use whatever thrower you can get your hands on. When you get to level 8- farm out a Nightforge Spike as it's the best throwing item for a long while. Until you get your DEX up and have Shuriken Expertise, you don't really care if it's a shuriken or your mother's ashes you are throwing.

    Mid Levels:
    Keep using you Nightforge Spike- you won't find anything better. Put in augments to match your level in you'll be in better shape. By this point you have Coup De Grace but if you've noticed- your ability to crowd control is a bit lacking. I'd recommend finding or (probably) crafting a paralyzer so you have a way to insta-kill multiple mobs after controlling them with paralyze. You could also switch into a sword/buckler combo using the 1-2 combo to insta-kill when it's off cooldown, and then switching back.
    Or you could just ignore Coup De Grace entirely until epics. Up to you.

    Late:
    Otto's Whistler is your crux here. Line everybody up and watch as they run toward you. Throw an Otto's Whistler and watch as they dance before you. Kill them all at the same time with a single, wonderful, coup de grace. This will work in Epic Elites- and as long as you have a +15-20 perform item, your Coup De Grace DC will still be no-fail.
    You're going to want to use Shurikens at this point- where you have a lot of DEX you'll see Shuriken Expertise come into play and it will start being good. You're not going to do as much ranged damage as, say, the Shuricannon but you will have heals, buffs, songs, an absolutely gross Reflex save- and most importantly, a CC>Insta-kill combo that will work reliably in Epic Elites on a line of waiting mobs.

    (Reflex save on this build will be around 70- 76-78 with unearthly reactions)
    Last edited by Maelodic; 06-14-2014 at 02:56 AM.
    ~Sarlona~ - Proud Member of The Unrepentant
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    Praise Dog, and Maelodic, his prophet.

  15. #55
    Community Member Maelodic's Avatar
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    Build Update:
    Sense Weakness>Soundburst SLA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scraap View Post
    Praise Dog, and Maelodic, his prophet.

  16. #56
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    I'd debate the usefulness of Dance of Flowers on a shuriken build. While 1.5[W] is generally pretty sweet, it doesn't do all that much when [W] is 1d2.

  17. #57
    Community Member Maelodic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwonbush View Post
    I'd debate the usefulness of Dance of Flowers on a shuriken build. While 1.5[W] is generally pretty sweet, it doesn't do all that much when [W] is 1d2.
    I suppose your right. I forget that TF Shuri is 1d2 and not 1d4. Sometimes I question whether using Shurikens is really the best way- throwing axes get 18-20 / 4x with swashbuckling.

    Shuriken expertise probably still pulls ahead but possibly not.
    ~Sarlona~ - Proud Member of The Unrepentant
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    Praise Dog, and Maelodic, his prophet.

  18. #58
    Community Member drsmooth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maelodic View Post
    I suppose your right. I forget that TF Shuri is 1d2 and not 1d4. Sometimes I question whether using Shurikens is really the best way- throwing axes get 18-20 / 4x with swashbuckling.

    Shuriken expertise probably still pulls ahead but possibly not.

    I have been trying to think of a good way to do an axe throwing swashbuckler, as the crit range and multiplier you can get on throwing axes is pretty good.

    Throwing axes with a str-based build (with enough dex for combat archery) and the brutal throw feat might be worth looking at.

    12 ftr-str-based
    -power surge
    -lots of feats
    -allows you to be centered for dance of flowers
    -overwhelming critical for x5 on 19-20

    5(at least)-bard-coup de grace
    -wind at my back
    -blow by blow

    My problem is deciding what class to finish off the split with.

    1-3 Cleric/Favoured Soul will give you access to divine might which equals more to hit and damage via brutal throw, and some positive spell power

    2 Rogue will get you evasion, which I love, and some SA damage

    2 Ranger will get you free rapid shot, wand use and some SA

    Just some thoughts

  19. #59
    The Hatchery CThruTheEgo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drsmooth View Post
    12 ftr-str-based
    -power surge
    -lots of feats
    -allows you to be centered for dance of flowers
    -overwhelming critical for x5 on 19-20

    5(at least)-bard-coup de grace
    -wind at my back
    -blow by blow
    You can't get one with the blade (centered non monk weapons) and coup de grace since they are both tier five.
    White Feather Sniper: dps focused, 62DC paralyzing arrows human ranged ranger/The Divine Cuisinart: human tempest in divine crusader/Hassan's Assassin: 81DC halfling assassin/The Count of Monte Cristo: human swashbuckler/Dubbell O'Seven: WF artificer
    Abandoned builds: Totally Bass Ackwards/Santa's Little Slayer

  20. #60
    Community Member Maelodic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drsmooth View Post
    I have been trying to think of a good way to do an axe throwing swashbuckler, as the crit range and multiplier you can get on throwing axes is pretty good.

    Throwing axes with a str-based build (with enough dex for combat archery) and the brutal throw feat might be worth looking at.

    12 ftr-str-based
    -power surge
    -lots of feats
    -allows you to be centered for dance of flowers
    -overwhelming critical for x5 on 19-20

    5(at least)-bard-coup de grace
    -wind at my back
    -blow by blow

    My problem is deciding what class to finish off the split with.

    1-3 Cleric/Favoured Soul will give you access to divine might which equals more to hit and damage via brutal throw, and some positive spell power

    2 Rogue will get you evasion, which I love, and some SA damage

    2 Ranger will get you free rapid shot, wand use and some SA

    Just some thoughts
    I can't see Dance of Flowers being all that important- definitely not important enough to sacrifice CDG and Exploit Weakness. Exploit Weakness DOES use ranged, and is hyper powerful with it. As CThru said, you can't take both T5s.

    Honestly- the only two competitors I can see with this would be FvS vs Rogue. You can easily hit attack speed cap without rapid shot or even quick draw, so I wouldn't worry about that at all.
    For me- I'd take FvS if you're planning on playing mostly a party, and Rogue if you're planning on mostly soloing. Your reflex save will be fairly reliable for most content so Evasion is nice to have, but CHA to STR is also super fantastic and helps things along quite a bit.
    ~Sarlona~ - Proud Member of The Unrepentant
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