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  1. #1
    Community Member Nestroy's Avatar
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    Default Instead Epic Elite build thread - the "what works on EE" thread

    Hi @ all,

    we were discussing builds for so long, I think we forgot the most important thing - the question why certain builds work. Here is the thread where we shoudl find consensus on what works and how it can be achieved. It´s not in the build, it´s in the numbers behind the build! How to make whatever viable in EE?

    The question is not, what is best - max is best, simple! The Question is, where does a build starts to be vialble?

    What would be needed for (general build type melee, ranged, caster, thrower, specialist)?
    • AC
      PRR
      Fort Saves
      Reflex Saves
      Will Saves
      Spell DC (generaly, Necro, Evo, Enchantment)
      Tactical DCs
      Spell Power (universal, specialized element, light, force...]
      Dodge
      Double Strike
      Crit Chance
      Combat Speed
      Feat Set - Feat set combos
      EDs - which abilities are needed
      Ability Scores


    Please no tool generated builds - we do not look for the best builds here, but for what a viable EE build needs that does... (fill in melee, ranged, caster, thrower, whatever general build set you mind).

    Diskuss!
    Last edited by Nestroy; 05-30-2014 at 03:40 PM.

  2. #2
    Hopeless Romantic dunklezhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nestroy View Post
    Hi @ all,

    we were discussing builds for so long, I think we forgot the most important thing - the question why certain builds work. Here is the thread where we shoudl find consensus on what works and how it can be achieved. It´s not in the build, it´s in the numbers behind the build! How to make whatever viable in EE?

    The question is not, what is best - max is best, simple! The Question is, where does a build starts to be vialble?

    What would be needed for (general build type melee, ranged, caster, thrower, specialist)?
    • AC
      PRR
      Fort Saves
      Reflex Saves
      Will Saves
      Spell DC (generaly, Necro, Evo, Enchantment)
      Tactical DCs
      Spell Power (universal, specialized element, light, force...]
      Dodge
      Double Strike
      Crit Chance
      Combat Speed
      Feat Set - Feat set combos
      EDs - which abilities are needed


    Please no tool generated builds - we do not look for the best builds here, but for what a viable EE build needs that does... (fill in melee, ranged, caster, thrower, whatever general build set you mind).

    Diskuss!
    You probably ought to define 'viable'.
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  3. #3

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    You might add ability scores.

    A Barbarian with low STR will lack its core function as super-fighter for power crits that can remove stubborn HP bags.

    A Monk with low WIS will never stun reliably when unarmed, nor get any offensive finishing moves to stick, such as paralysis or muting.
    Editor, The Book of Syncletica: An unofficial DDO Monk Guide, and Stormreach Shadows: An unofficial DDO Stealth Guide
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    (formerly known as Spencerian)

  4. #4
    Community Member Ivan_Milic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spencerian View Post
    You might add ability scores.

    A Barbarian with low STR will lack its core function as super-fighter for power crits that can remove stubborn HP bags.

  5. #5
    Community Member Ivan_Milic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nayus View Post
    Any build can be viable in EE...

    I give this troll a 1 out of 10.

    Sweet.
    He is probably from wayfinder or cannith, dont be so hard on him.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nayus View Post
    Any build can be viable in EE...

    I give this troll a 1 out of 10.

    Sweet.
    Before the complaints even get started, I think you should change your approach. Perhaps something like "recommended EE viable classes for new players" or something. This gives us a framework to work around.

  7. #7
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    I think you have to distinguish between the different levels of epic elite.

    I was messing around with my bear tank, and i can tell you that tanking absolutely works in eberron epic elites, and motu.

    To my surprise, it also works in the gianthold walkups. To define what i mean by working: I pull the agro, and don't die from it. Other people who would die from the agro don't die instead. The dps is low for sure, but i have other toons for that, i built the tank to tank, not solo.

    Haven't tried anything higher on epic elite yet. The numbers for the bear were ~ 150-160 ac and ~ 120 prr. No displacement or even blur going, but i did have ghostly.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    Before the complaints even get started, I think you should change your approach. Perhaps something like "recommended EE viable classes for new players" or something. This gives us a framework to work around.
    new players maybe should learn the game better and not expect to be EE ready right at level 20.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridge_Dweller View Post
    new players maybe should learn the game better and not expect to be EE ready right at level 20.
    I disagree. EE is already a zergfest. There's no reason a new player can't be viable in EE. They will need a crutch build, like a shiradi caster or a monkcher, but they can do perfectly fine.

  10. #10
    Community Member Ivan_Milic's Avatar
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    New player on monkcher? lolololol

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    I disagree. EE is already a zergfest. There's no reason a new player can't be viable in EE. They will need a crutch build, like a shiradi caster or a monkcher, but they can do perfectly fine.
    We need to define "new."

    First lifer, just hits 20, no EDs. That's a new player, should not be in EE.

    Decent gear, a few EDs including a good one or two at full XP. I'm not sure you can call such a player new anymore.

    Playing the 'crutch' builds isn't good for them, you'll learn to be better not playing the easy-button builds.
    Last edited by Bridge_Dweller; 05-30-2014 at 02:51 PM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan_Milic View Post
    New player on monkcher? lolololol
    I've taught some brand new players on monkchers and they do completely fine. I'm not sure what you think is so complicated about a monkcher.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridge_Dweller View Post
    We need to define "new."

    First lifer, just hits 20, no EDs. That's a new player, should not be in EE.

    Decent gear, a few EDs including a good one or two at full XP. I'm not sure you can call such a player new anymore.
    I disagree. If a new player can allow me to complete an EE one second quicker than I can solo it, then they're worth the party slot. I find that new players seem to be able to do this.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    I've taught some brand new players on monkchers and they do completely fine. I'm not sure what you think is so complicated about a monkcher.
    Define "brand new" please.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    I disagree. If a new player can allow me to complete an EE one second quicker than I can solo it, then they're worth the party slot. I find that new players seem to be able to do this.
    With Dungeon scaling I'm not sure I believe you.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridge_Dweller View Post
    Define "brand new" please.
    First toon ever made supported by a set of +5 tomes. It only takes like an hour to max out a destiny. Maybe a day to get all twists. Less than a weekend to max all destinies. I don't know why you think this is the difference between a "new" and "experienced" player. :P

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    First toon ever made supported by a set of +5 tomes.
    LOL. Sure, new players all have +5 tomes. I know it's in the store but it's still kinda funny.

    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    It only takes like an hour to max out a destiny.
    Yes, but if it's by doing what I think you're talking about you'll need a 50%er. This again is not typical of a new player.

    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    Maybe a day to get all twists. Less than a weekend to max all destinies.
    I'm calling BS on this for a new player.

    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    I don't know why you think this is the difference between a "new" and "experienced" player. :P
    That's easy, one is new and the other is experienced. Your above story sounds like complete fiction. Name of toon or it didn't happen.

  18. #18
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    I like this thread better than the one on builds. But I guess it is inconvenient for some...is there a conspiracy not to share the key to EE? Joking! :P


    Ok, so from my many many failed melee tries. The basic building blocks (I do not claim ultimate knowledge on the topic, but I still want to contribute).


    Damage avoidance

    No melee has enough HP to be able to face EE unless it has a lot of damage avoidance. Don t try beefing up to infinity your HPs, it is a dead end. You must have damage avoidance. There are some well known damage avoidance sources. Some are more expensive to get than others, in terms of in game time. In the damage avoidance department, there are three basic stacking options.

    1. Concealment: displacement is a must. Either be very diligent about displacement scrolls, roll a class with displacement or farm displacement clickies. If you don t have any of those options, I don t recommend trying a melee. Blurr is not enough.

    2. Dodge: perhaps the most expensive to get. You have feats (dodge, mobility), enhancements and items. My suggestion would be to try to use enhancements and items as opposed to investing feats. The amount of return for a feat investment is low and the opportunity cost high.

    3. Incorporeality: you have 10% items, pale master wraith or shadow veil, a monk enhancement that requires 6 levels of monk.

    1-3 stack in the following way. It is three different to hit checks, one for each source. So to compute the end probability of getting hit, you have to multiply the independent rolls. For instance, assuming 50% conceal, 15% dodge and 10% incorp, the chances to be hit are:

    0.5*0.85*0.9=0.3825. Only 38% of the attacks mobs do will land on you.

    It is hard to pin a particular minimum number for damage avoidance, since it is related to how fast you and self healing. However, I would say that under 40% chance of getting hit is a good starting point.

    The fourth and often neglected source of damage avoidance is AC, armor class. My advise, unless you really want to play a tank, is to simply ignore AC. If you want a tank, you need to go find very specialized threads that deal with that.

    Damage mitigation

    Once you get hit, the amount of damage you suffer can be lowered by PRR, physical resistance rating. It is important to know that PRR has decreasing returns. That is, 10 extra points of PRR bring less damage mitigation when you have 100 points already than when you have 0. While PRR is obviously good to have, some builds have a much easier time getting it than others.

    I would not go out of the way too much to get PRR. Grab whatever is low hanging fruit for you. For instance, if you are a monk, you can easily get a lot of it. Do it. However, it is possible to roll builds without much PRR. Be aware that you need to compensate for that with more damage avoidance and/or better self healing.

    A final word, do not invest "too much" in PRR. Generally, PRR above 100-120 tends to be a bad idea. For most builds, a bad idea is a much lower treshold, around 60 PRR. When you are making the choice to invest in PRR, keep in mind what you are giving up in exchange.
    Last edited by BigErkyKid; 06-01-2014 at 07:34 AM.

  19. #19
    Community Member Seikojin's Avatar
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    We need some test scenarios. I typically jump into EE DA to see if I can survive trash numbers easily.

    While I ran a first life build, 32 point pure human fighter going stalwart and a few human enhancements, I was steady at 171-176 (think it was one or the other) AC, 100-126prr, and 7% dodge. I got smoked in less than 6 seconds. Went back in with 150-160 AC, 100 prr, and 21% dodge (capped) and died in wave 3 (tripped).

    Given these scenarios, I am guessing I need either AC that is unobtainable, or somehow fit all the points into balance I can, plus have a +20 item, and buffs for the skill and a tome. I will post a screenie from lam later.

    I think on EE, no ac alone would ever be considered viable.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde View Post
    Well, in theory. Any particular iteration of any build . . . not so much. And not all EE is created equal. Some bosses (Karleth) you just cannot stand in melee with. It's not going to happen.

    You can trivially kill Karleth by turning auto attack on, targeting him, and continuously walking backwards as you attack/heal so if he stops moving towards you to wind up his chain swing, you are already out of range.

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