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  1. #1
    Community Member Munkenmo's Avatar
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    Default Now that Guild Renown is relevant, how about moving COV's to chests?

    Dev's do you expect us to have to choose between guild renown and COV's every single end reward?

    The CoV cost for Epic/Iconic Reincarnations is widely considered to be too high by many of your players. This perception looks like it's only going to get worse now as players start feeling like they're forced to choose between themselves and their guild.

    Historically players would only be giving up vendor loot in order to contribute to their guild, many players didn't overly value plat and did not feel like helping their guild was preventing their own personal progress. Now that the primary way to obtain the currency required to progress a character and a guild are obtained from the same source, more players are going to feel alienated by this system.

    I know CoV's were implemented to try to slow down progression and provide a monetized means to avoid the barrier, I've seen Turbine do it before. I can't help but feel though that just like some of turbines previous attempts, the barrier has had too negative an impact.

    When I first started playing, there were tokens of leveling. These were eventually scrapped as who ever was in charge at the time decided it was better for them and their player base to be allowed to progress their characters and have a reason to continue to buy content. Eventually a similar system was re-introduced with True reincarnation and Epic Hearts of Wood. At that time, the game was much more populated, getting into epic groups was not as difficult, and players were guaranteed a token at the end of a quest. There was a barrier in place, but the cost was not widely regarded as being to great, nor was getting tokens in addition to standard loot considered to be in any way punitive.

    Fast forward to now, there are not as many players, pugs or private groups as there were at the peak of the epic token system. But now with CoV's players are not only going to be forced to choose between character progression or currency, they're also going to have to choose themselves or their guild. The perception that the CoV cost for epic hearts is too high is going to be amplified, and I expect more and more players will be put off by the mechanic. We have a player base that is in decline, I know first hand the COV gate is definitely a contributing factor.

    I speak from my own experience, I was formerly an incredibly active player who would constantly be running 30% potions, buy store consumables and had a VIP sub. I could run quests as I wanted, contribute to my guild and lead pugs on my server. I had 2 completionists, about 10 36pt builds. I've found that despite running EE bravery streaks I would still have serious COV shortages when reaching level 28. It was disheartening to say the least, but I persisted till about February this year, before finally quitting outright.

    Now here you are, with a fairly well thought out new guild system that looks compelling, it made me consider coming back to help my friends get new ships, new buffs and possibly contend for top guild titles. Then I remembered that I would have to choose between my guild and my character every single end reward list, and realized the conflict would sap the fun out of the new guild system for me completely. I won't make that choice, it's not fun, I'm not going to come back, for free or as a VIP to be frustrated by a progression gate. None of the previous Gate systems had the conflicts that CoV's do now.

    Previous gates even allowed for the Leveling token or Epic Token to be trade-able, this helped build a community, now you're actively hindering it. Turbine I think you're on the right track with the guild system, but the dislike for the current CoV system will kill it before it gets off the ground.

    Sorry that this turned ranty, however I doubt I'm the only person who feels this way,

  2. #2
    Community Member whereispowderedsilve's Avatar
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    Default I hope Producer Glin & Producer Maj are paying attention!

    Quote Originally Posted by fTdOmen View Post
    Dev's do you expect us to have to choose between guild renown and COV's every single end reward?

    The CoV cost for Epic/Iconic Reincarnations is widely considered to be too high by many of your players. This perception looks like it's only going to get worse now as players start feeling like they're forced to choose between themselves and their guild.

    Historically players would only be giving up vendor loot in order to contribute to their guild, many players didn't overly value plat and did not feel like helping their guild was preventing their own personal progress. Now that the primary way to obtain the currency required to progress a character and a guild are obtained from the same source, more players are going to feel alienated by this system.

    I know CoV's were implemented to try to slow down progression and provide a monetized means to avoid the barrier, I've seen Turbine do it before. I can't help but feel though that just like some of turbines previous attempts, the barrier has had too negative an impact.

    When I first started playing, there were tokens of leveling. These were eventually scrapped as who ever was in charge at the time decided it was better for them and their player base to be allowed to progress their characters and have a reason to continue to buy content. Eventually a similar system was re-introduced with True reincarnation and Epic Hearts of Wood. At that time, the game was much more populated, getting into epic groups was not as difficult, and players were guaranteed a token at the end of a quest. There was a barrier in place, but the cost was not widely regarded as being to great, nor was getting tokens in addition to standard loot considered to be in any way punitive.

    Fast forward to now, there are not as many players, pugs or private groups as there were at the peak of the epic token system. But now with CoV's players are not only going to be forced to choose between character progression or currency, they're also going to have to choose themselves or their guild. The perception that the CoV cost for epic hearts is too high is going to be amplified, and I expect more and more players will be put off by the mechanic. We have a player base that is in decline, I know first hand the COV gate is definitely a contributing factor.

    I speak from my own experience, I was formerly an incredibly active player who would constantly be running 30% potions, buy store consumables and had a VIP sub. I could run quests as I wanted, contribute to my guild and lead pugs on my server. I had 2 completionists, about 10 36pt builds. I've found that despite running EE bravery streaks I would still have serious COV shortages when reaching level 28. It was disheartening to say the least, but I persisted till about February this year, before finally quitting outright.

    Now here you are, with a fairly well thought out new guild system that looks compelling, it made me consider coming back to help my friends get new ships, new buffs and possibly contend for top guild titles. Then I remembered that I would have to choose between my guild and my character every single end reward list, and realized the conflict would sap the fun out of the new guild system for me completely. I won't make that choice, it's not fun, I'm not going to come back, for free or as a VIP to be frustrated by a progression gate. None of the previous Gate systems had the conflicts that CoV's do now.

    Previous gates even allowed for the Leveling token or Epic Token to be trade-able, this helped build a community, now you're actively hindering it. Turbine I think you're on the right track with the guild system, but the dislike for the current CoV system will kill it before it gets off the ground.

    Sorry that this turned ranty, however I doubt I'm the only person who feels this way,
    /Signed!!

    I hope Producer Glin & Producer Maj are paying attention!

    I'll just add my own anecdote to this as well:

    I have not nor will I ever until some things change with the CoV System have taken a single CoV on any of my 6/8 active epic toons since CoV system went active.

    #1. As FtDomen/munk as stated remove/move CoVs from end reward to chests, also code it like guild renown as chai &/or some others have mentioned so people/players can't pass to each other in the chest.

    #2. Reduce the CoV number or increase CoV drop rates also have tomes of learning impact CoV like you did for the xp boosts etc. Possibly increase the ways to earn CoVs as well.

    #3. Reduce the karma requirement as well.

    #4. Increase the Epic PLs benefit marginally, they are not worth it for me in my opinion either.

    That's all I can think of for now/the moment.

    Until all that happens I will continue absolutely not participating in CoVs & not a single 1 of my toons will pick CoVs ever.

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  3. #3
    Community Member haulindonkey's Avatar
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    Default Having to Choose CoVs or Guild Renown has been a major downer for me as well...

    My playing time has decreased and a big reason for this is the current system for earning CoVs. Not to mention the fact that the amount of CoVs to earn a heart for iconic or eTr is too high - as has been repeatedly brought up (new posts every few days) on the forums in numerous posts. It feels almost like the case, (in movies/fiction usually) where a person forces someone to choose between two of their loved ones to kill, if you don't choose then both are killed (extreme example but feels almost as bad for some of us). Here I am having to choose between advancing my toon or helping advance my guild comprised of friends that feel like family. One cannot choose both, so with the above posters they have decided to outright quit the game or to not participate in the CoV gating system at all.

    Please Devs consider how you are hurting not just the future of DDO, but also the long-term financial stability of the product as well with a system that is both discouraging and disheartening to those of us who love not just our toons, but also our guilds.

    /signed
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  4. #4
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    I never cared about random trash I'm getting at NPC for finishing quests.
    In 4 reincarnations, I've always checked all the items, there wasn't single thing worth taking look at (except for chain reward.
    If covs wouldn't be there, I would take renown, or it its not there, i would take random junk and instavendor (or destroy if vendor is not close).

    Now, I don't relly care where CoVs are, but I don't want them in chests for a simple reason: they would requrie people to get to chest, not completion of quest.
    Someone could recall, come back when quest is done and take CoVs, then farm.
    Also, if someone who finished quest couldn't get into end chest, all his/her time and effort in quest are wasted.

    CoVs can be:
    • Given automatically when quest is completed, just like challenge mats.
    • Given automatically when -1 useless dagger of worthlessness is picked in end reward list, just like phylactery, blood and that third thing in ADQ flagging quests
      or
    • Stay as are now.

  5. #5
    Community Member Munkenmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    Now, I don't relly care where CoVs are, but I don't want them in chests for a simple reason: they would requrie people to get to chest, not completion of quest.
    Someone could recall, come back when quest is done and take CoVs, then farm.
    Also, if someone who finished quest couldn't get into end chest, all his/her time and effort in quest are wasted.
    I'm sorry, I should have been clearer, I think there should be epic chests in all epic content, just like there were before motu, where people had to be in the quest prior to completion to access said chest, or else they'd get an "epic fail" error when trying to loot the epic chest.

    I also think there would be far less players who complete a quest yet be unable to access the epic chest than there would be people who get annoyed at having to choose between CoV's or Guild Renown.

  6. #6
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    I agree with the general idea, but we all know they will never move COVs to chests because of dual boxing.

    They should give you the covs as end reward if you are't on ransack without having to select it as a reward.

    Since you left the game they started giving COV bonuses for xp boosts - all kinds. So running on EE with xp pots will no longer prevent you from getting 4200 covs. I would say it's near impossible to run all EE to 28 and not get 4200 COVs. I have over 30k banked and only half of that is from COV bonus events.
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  7. #7
    Community Member niehues's Avatar
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    wasn't it relevant b4?

    oh wait.. my guild is lv100 already.. dont care abt the rest... .. so yeah..

    I have voted for this since day 1.. Covs are hard to get and they dispute with Guild renown and gear... not really fair

  8. #8
    Community Member Ivan_Milic's Avatar
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    No, leave covs, but move guild renown, make it after you complete a quest you get random number of guild renown, just like you would get from end reward, but this time you would get it automatically for completing a quest.

  9. #9
    Community Member Munkenmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    I agree with the general idea, but we all know they will never move COVs to chests because of dual boxing.

    Since you left the game they started giving COV bonuses for xp boosts - all kinds. So running on EE with xp pots will no longer prevent you from getting 4200 covs. I would say it's near impossible to run all EE to 28 and not get 4200 COVs. I have over 30k banked and only half of that is from COV bonus events.
    I've been keeping up with all changes , I think adding CoV's to epic boxes was a smart move, and I think allowing xp bonuses apply to CoV's was also a good idea. It's not enough though.

    When epic tokens and tokens of leveling were the barrier, they were both tradeable in chests, I saw plenty of groups run where people would pass tokens, the mechanic encouraged grouping and trading. The game definately seemed more social and better off for the trading aspect. CoV's are the first non tradeable barrier. This game desperately needs to keep people happy and accommodate as much social interaction as possible. I don't see the harm in dual boxers getting to farm COV's, kudos to anyone with multiple accounts who's purchased the relevant content and is willing to farm in that manner. They're not negatively impacting Turbines bottom line, or my play experience.

    I'll acknowledge that turbine has made steps to improve upon the CoV system. Compared to previous gates though, CoV's were overly punitive from the start, they didn't get better quickly enough for me. Now CoV's are still a significant barrier preventing me from returning, their distribution system is forcing me to choose between advancing myself or my guild. Like I said before, it's not a fun choice, even thinking about the conflict killed the enthusiasm I first had when reading about the guild system updates.

    Quote Originally Posted by niehues View Post
    wasn't it relevant b4?

    oh wait.. my guild is lv100 already.. dont care abt the rest... .. so yeah.
    My guild wasn't level 100, but none of us considered renown relevant once decay was removed. We had access to all buffs we could use and were happy to level up slowly. I don't mean to come across as synical, but now that guild levels can be viewed as a competition renown will be relevant for everyone, not just those less fortunate than myself.

  10. #10
    Community Member Theolin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan_Milic View Post
    No, leave covs, but move guild renown, make it after you complete a quest you get random number of guild renown, just like you would get from end reward, but this time you would get it automatically for completing a quest.
    I like this idea as a compromise

  11. #11
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    While I do get the general angst over having to make choices, I would like to point out that the end reward list is NOT the only source of renown out there. I've been watching, and I get far more inside the quests beween kills and chest drops than I do at the end list. I can quite easily collect up cov's as the end reward and still produce a large number of renown for my guild. This is more of a 'it would be nice' than a critical "we can't advance our guilds there is no other way to get renown!" issue.
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  12. #12
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    The other big source of renown in epics, sagas, is currently disabled.

    Here's the other big problem:
    Populations are smaller right now, you can't be as picky about level range as you might have been able to in the past. A level 28 won't hurt your xp at all (other than denying bb, but you don't get bb after your first etr normally anyway) in any quest level 22 or higher. If you run EH or EE, that's pretty much every epic quest. But they WILL crush the amount of renown you get from mobs and ordinary chests. Put together, a lot of TR heroic alts make bigger renown contributions than mains running epics.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ValariusK View Post
    The other big source of renown in epics, sagas, is currently disabled.
    Unless I missed something they did announce that they're going back on with U22 anyway.
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  14. #14
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Default COVs and Renown Both Need to Be Selectable

    I've been meaning to make a request similar to this one. Different types of end rewards keep getting added and the game needs to be adjusted accordingly. I was thinking that COVs and guild renown should just be combined into one end reward on the list, but if COVs were placed in the final chest, that might work as well.
    Last edited by FlaviusMaximus; 05-23-2014 at 02:35 PM.

  15. #15
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Just my two cents worth.

    I often save up end rewards to use xp pots to boost the number of coms i get. Several people i regularly run with, who did not know that xp boosts did this, are now interested in doing the same thing. Neither i, nor the other people i am referring to, regularly, or ever use xp pots for the sake of getting more xp. I know that i personally have little interest in using them to boost the xp from quests.

  16. #16
    Community Member Ivan_Milic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrinityTurtle View Post
    Unless I missed something they did announce that they're going back on with U22 anyway.
    This is 2nd time it has been disabled, and it will be disabled more times.

  17. #17
    Community Member LeoLionxxx's Avatar
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    Post -Inspiring title I didn't come up with"

    Well said. In this recent article by Ten Ton Hammer, the devs have acknowledged the importance of the guilds and the sense of community they give:

    "As a sort of high-level summary," Senior Designer Ben Schneider explained, "when we sat down to design this stuff, we decided that guilds and the guild airships that support them are really important to DDO. So this new guild system is much more generous, good-looking and overall sort of helpful than the old system. Really, we want players to be in guilds, to have a good time, and to feel powerful and rewarded for doing it. And because we're in Eberron, we've really stretched the definition of what you could normally fit on an airship. Whether or not all those visuals are glamoured, we are not at liberty to disclose...."
    It is in the interest of all to make the game more enjoyable. Back in the days I would get a great sense of pride from getting and selecting that Legendary Victory! from the end reward list. These items drop more commonly from epic end reward lists, but alwase I have been having to forgo them so as to creep steadily closer to my epic heart of wood. I can defiantly say it has decreased my sense of community with my guild, whom I have been with for almost as long as I've been playing.

    Q: What is the point of an end reward list?
    A: To give the player a nice choice of reward for slaying the dragon or saving the village. However, with CoVs as they are, that choice is next to eliminated.

    Automatically granting them is a fair and reasonable thing to do; "you saved my son, here's a trinket (/sword/magic book) and proof of your deed". Some people are uninterested in getting the hearts of wood. Fine. These people are exactly why potions and such were added to the CoV turn in list (source link search failed). Putting them in end chest does present the issue of people passing and duel-boxing, so maybe the best solution is, as suggested above, grant them automatically alongside the end reward list (somewhat like how the extra potions are awarded at the end of "Redfang the unruled").

    I guess you guys are set on the rate at which the commendations of valor drop (which is based on taking them every time as the end reward), so lets make the process more enjoyable by giving the players the appropriate reward for their efforts, be it a magic dagger or prestige for their guild.

    Thankyou for reading.
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  18. #18
    Community Member Nestroy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeoLionxxx View Post
    Well said. In this recent article by Ten Ton Hammer, the devs have acknowledged the importance of the guilds and the sense of community they give:



    It is in the interest of all to make the game more enjoyable. Back in the days I would get a great sense of pride from getting and selecting that Legendary Victory! from the end reward list. These items drop more commonly from epic end reward lists, but alwase I have been having to forgo them so as to creep steadily closer to my epic heart of wood. I can defiantly say it has decreased my sense of community with my guild, whom I have been with for almost as long as I've been playing.

    Q: What is the point of an end reward list?
    A: To give the player a nice choice of reward for slaying the dragon or saving the village. However, with CoVs as they are, that choice is next to eliminated.

    Automatically granting them is a fair and reasonable thing to do; "you saved my son, here's a trinket (/sword/magic book) and proof of your deed". Some people are uninterested in getting the hearts of wood. Fine. These people are exactly why potions and such were added to the CoV turn in list (source link search failed). Putting them in end chest does present the issue of people passing and duel-boxing, so maybe the best solution is, as suggested above, grant them automatically alongside the end reward list (somewhat like how the extra potions are awarded at the end of "Redfang the unruled").

    I guess you guys are set on the rate at which the commendations of valor drop (which is based on taking them every time as the end reward), so lets make the process more enjoyable by giving the players the appropriate reward for their efforts, be it a magic dagger or prestige for their guild.

    Thankyou for reading.
    /signed and /signed @ OP

    It´s a shame this has not been done already. We get the token frags and 12 tokens from chests too - why not CoVs. Would solve a quite a lot problems, imho.

    Added Bonus - if rare and optional chests could give 1-4 CoVs this would not hurt either.

  19. #19
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    Just my two cents worth.

    I often save up end rewards to use xp pots to boost the number of coms i get. Several people i regularly run with, who did not know that xp boosts did this, are now interested in doing the same thing. Neither i, nor the other people i am referring to, regularly, or ever use xp pots for the sake of getting more xp. I know that i personally have little interest in using them to boost the xp from quests.
    That's very important.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeoLionxxx View Post
    Q: What is the point of an end reward list?
    A: To give the player a nice choice of reward for slaying the dragon or saving the village. However, with CoVs as they are, that choice is next to eliminated.
    I never noticed any choice.
    Rewards presented on list never anything good, except for few cases where named item drops.
    In my 4 ETRs there wasn't a single item that was interesting to take, so CoV save me time browsing list of +5 worthless light maces of uselessnes.
    If there'd be a tome I'd take it over comms, but I didn't seen any on end reward list long before ERs was implemented.

  20. #20
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    Now choice is relevant. More choice. In order for a choice to meaningfull you have to give up something. so /not signed, to keep end quest reward more choice.

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