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  1. #1
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    Default Hands off my Archon

    "Most spells (and the Favored Soul's Angel of Vengeance summoned archon) no longer emit light. This change has been made to improve game performance."

    Really? I mean, really?

    The fvs archon has been in the game for nearly 3 years now and if you've only just found issues with it then I'd suggest you fix the area with the problem and not just rip out anything that can cause that problem to manifest. Especially when when it's 'area', singular :

    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    This change came out of an investigation into ways to improve performance in the Thunderholme raid area. The Lantern Archon was indeed having an impact on game performance due to its environmental lighting effect.
    It's impressive really, Turbine will quite likely be the first company ever to *reduce* the amount of eye candy in their games. Personally I'm looking forward to next year when we should be back to isometric graphics and 2017 when I'd think we'll be seeing "DDO, Gauntlet Edition"

    If you absolutely have to screw around with this then why not simply add another graphical option (or tell people about the existing ones) for the 3 affected players. Or perhaps you should just stop testing this stuff on 10 year old laptops?
    Last edited by Megahurtz; 05-17-2014 at 06:07 AM. Reason: I'm an idiot that can't spell.

  2. #2
    Community Member Ykt's Avatar
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    Remove all light sources so we can play completely blind and not affect performance.

    Remove all servers to reduce the server load.

  3. #3
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    It kind of makes sense because crystals emitting light has always been a source of lag - e.g., master artificer.

    I don't care that much really.

  4. #4
    Community Member TheGuyYouKnow's Avatar
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    this does not change anything
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  5. #5
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    Ohh so sorry you actually have to run Rainbow the way it was intended now...

    Quote Originally Posted by Megahurtz View Post
    If you absolutely have to screw around with this then why not simply add another graphical option (or tell people about the existing ones) for the 3 affected players. Or perhaps you should just stop testing this stuff on 10 year old laptops?
    Its not a client performance issue, its a server performance issue. I imagine its a problem with having to calculate all the various lighting values at all angles as the light source is constantly moving around, on top of all the other ambient lighting values. If its taking an extra 30% of the flops just to have "eye candy", I'm fine without it.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Ohh so sorry you actually have to run Rainbow the way it was intended now...



    Its not a client performance issue, its a server performance issue. I imagine its a problem with having to calculate all the various lighting values at all angles as the light source is constantly moving around, on top of all the other ambient lighting values. If its taking an extra 30% of the flops just to have "eye candy", I'm fine without it.
    It would be pretty dumb to calculate the light effects on the server... That's what client is for.

    I think it has to do with decision making of what the archon is agroed on. Apart from it being another piece on the board...
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  7. #7
    Community Member MalkavianX's Avatar
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    I agree that lag is bad and that if something is causing lag then it should be fixed. That being said, just how is the archon causing lag? Isit the light that it emits? Or is it the aggro it draws from pewpewing baddies?
    If it's just the light causing the lag, by all means, remove the light.
    But if it's just the aggro, give the archon threat reduction.
    Quote Originally Posted by grodon9999 View Post
    This game has been such an absurd grind that I’d rather stick my junk in a beehive than make another toon.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by MalkavianX View Post
    I agree that lag is bad and that if something is causing lag then it should be fixed. That being said, just how is the archon causing lag? Isit the light that it emits? Or is it the aggro it draws from pewpewing baddies?
    If it's just the light causing the lag, by all means, remove the light.
    But if it's just the aggro, give the archon threat reduction.
    The game engine struggles after a certain threshold of light sources is introduced into an area. So, combine all of the in-quest or in-raid light sources, then add the archons, rune arms (yes, a rune arm could have five separate lights on it every time it's launched), spells, etc, and the end result was a significant drag on the game engine. Now, instead of a regular party, double it for a raid. When investigating issues with "lag" in Thunderholme, we tested out what would happen with the removal of the archons and other things as a light source, and saw significant improvements that led us to make this change (after further testing and other considerations.)

    In many ways, there will be almost no impact from this change other than an improvement in game performance. You'll still see the magic missiles shoot out, archons will still glow, etc, but they will not be an independent light source. So, if you look closely, you'll not see the lights being shone on the ground, for example. The only place it really matters is in Rainbow in the Dark, but since the quest already has an intended method to provide a light source, it was a decision we decided was important enough to make that even if it causes a minor inconvenience there, it's worth it.
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  9. #9
    Community Member Lauf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    The game engine struggles after a certain threshold of light sources is introduced into an area. So, combine all of the in-quest or in-raid light sources, then add the archons, rune arms (yes, a rune arm could have five separate lights on it every time it's launched), spells, etc, and the end result was a significant drag on the game engine. Now, instead of a regular party, double it for a raid. When investigating issues with "lag" in Thunderholme, we tested out what would happen with the removal of the archons and other things as a light source, and saw significant improvements that led us to make this change (after further testing and other considerations.)

    In many ways, there will be almost no impact from this change other than an improvement in game performance. You'll still see the magic missiles shoot out, archons will still glow, etc, but they will not be an independent light source. So, if you look closely, you'll not see the lights being shone on the ground, for example. The only place it really matters is in Rainbow in the Dark, but since the quest already has an intended method to provide a light source, it was a decision we decided was important enough to make that even if it causes a minor inconvenience there, it's worth it.
    If you're looking into reducing lag, try the black loch for a case study.
    when entering the area that has a heightened stage with a sorcerer on it, where you can see all the way to the ship from, there's always heavy lag. leading me to assume it has to do with the rendering of the large space.
    if you can understand what is causing the lag there and solve it, you could probably apply the same solution across the board to reduce overall server lag (wishful thinking, but it's worth a shot).

  10. #10
    The Hatchery CaptainSpacePony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauf View Post
    If you're looking into reducing lag, try the black loch for a case study.
    when entering the area that has a heightened stage with a sorcerer on it, where you can see all the way to the ship from, there's always heavy lag...
    That's lag in the cavern? I'd always assumed it was a pre-EvS spell ward with the time-stop effect.
    Cilon can be found on Orien.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    The game engine struggles after a certain threshold of light sources is introduced into an area. So, combine all of the in-quest or in-raid light sources, then add the archons, rune arms (yes, a rune arm could have five separate lights on it every time it's launched), spells, etc, and the end result was a significant drag on the game engine. Now, instead of a regular party, double it for a raid. When investigating issues with "lag" in Thunderholme, we tested out what would happen with the removal of the archons and other things as a light source, and saw significant improvements that led us to make this change (after further testing and other considerations.)

    In many ways, there will be almost no impact from this change other than an improvement in game performance. You'll still see the magic missiles shoot out, archons will still glow, etc, but they will not be an independent light source. So, if you look closely, you'll not see the lights being shone on the ground, for example. The only place it really matters is in Rainbow in the Dark, but since the quest already has an intended method to provide a light source, it was a decision we decided was important enough to make that even if it causes a minor inconvenience there, it's worth it.
    Makes sense and seems reasonable.

    Does disco ball still emit light? That's one of the cool effects of that spell, and I would be minorly (trivially) disappointed to see it go away.

  12. #12
    Community Member Flavilandile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauf View Post
    If you're looking into reducing lag, try the black loch for a case study.
    when entering the area that has a heightened stage with a sorcerer on it, where you can see all the way to the ship from, there's always heavy lag. leading me to assume it has to do with the rendering of the large space.
    if you can understand what is causing the lag there and solve it, you could probably apply the same solution across the board to reduce overall server lag (wishful thinking, but it's worth a shot).
    Turn off video post processing... it helps a lot...
    And that leads me to think that a good part of the lag comes from the rendering engine.

    In Thunder Peak I just made a test... and the number of mob I see makes my FPS move between 1 FPS and 30 FPS. ( the less mob the more FPS )
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  13. #13
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    It won't make the slightest bit of difference to performance. It is all GPU based on the client side. It will not eliminate any of the actual lag issues. I don't know what they are thinking over there. It's just another kick to the crotch for FVS.

  14. #14
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katie_Seaglen View Post
    It won't make the slightest bit of difference to performance. It is all GPU based on the client side. It will not eliminate any of the actual lag issues. I don't know what they are thinking over there. It's just another kick to the crotch for FVS.
    It will make a lag difference only...

    Someone is using an archon around you and you have a lower end machine.

    The OP is also late to this party as we have already hashed all of this out before.

    At the same time they need to remove the lighting effects from several spells. Dancing sphere, acid splash, finger flame, nimbus of light are just some I can think in under 5 seconds.

    Honestly, I figure the aura of menace causes more issues for lag than the lighting calculations do. After all, you've suddenly told mobs where you are, and they in turn have shouted out to their people who shout it out again, and keep shouting.
    Last edited by Missing_Minds; 05-17-2014 at 05:25 PM.

  15. #15
    Community Member Dawnsblood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    The only place it really matters is in Rainbow in the Dark, but since the quest already has an intended method to provide a light source, it was a decision we decided was important enough to make that even if it causes a minor inconvenience there, it's worth it.
    Yeah that is kinda the point. I really do wish you could allow it to work in that one quest. I am assuming it isn't that easy. The 'single light source' idea behind that quest is kinda stupid. I have always thought it was stupid to make the entire party depend on that one 'torch' that could only be carried by one character. I cannot count how many times a party I am in was forced to turn back and find someone who got lost or had to make the torch holder stand at various places to help party members jump. What kind of party doesn't carry its own sources of illumination? The archon made the quest a bit easier in that the whole party didn't have to turn around and waste time. Lets try a compromise. A few more 'torches' in the quest would probably be a good thing to consider.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dawnsblood View Post
    Yeah that is kinda the point. I really do wish you could allow it to work in that one quest. I am assuming it isn't that easy. The 'single light source' idea behind that quest is kinda stupid. I have always thought it was stupid to make the entire party depend on that one 'torch' that could only be carried by one character. I cannot count how many times a party I am in was forced to turn back and find someone who got lost or had to make the torch holder stand at various places to help party members jump. What kind of party doesn't carry its own sources of illumination? The archon made the quest a bit easier in that the whole party didn't have to turn around and waste time. Lets try a compromise. A few more 'torches' in the quest would probably be a good thing to consider.
    I rather like it as a quest mechanic, but I agree more torches would be good. Why not just put six of those scepters there and then anyone who wants one can take one, including late arrivals. That quest is the worst to join IP.

  17. #17
    Community Member Thumbed_Servant's Avatar
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    Default Please put your hands ON the archon

    We as a forum community ask for, beg for, plead for, demand a reduction in lag as often as we ask for all other things combined. Now, Turbine says they have a means of reducing the lag; this reduction in lag will have a very minor negative effect for us the players of removing a light source useful in one quest, but as it will reduce lag it will have beneficial results for us across the entire game, and we are complaining? :O

    For those who play Favored Souls: Is the removal of one special *trick* for one quest out of all the quests really a slight against you? Be honest, have you really suffered something irreparable? Your archon will still attack things for you, but won't allow you to run off alone in Rainbow in the Dark. Ok, so, time to work WITH the party for once. I play clerics, I've summoned an archon to help in Rainbow in the Dark, and I am not upset in the least that this is going away.

    Yes, Rainbow in the Dark has a unique mechanic. I have never NOT understood it. I could be wrong, but my understanding of the intent behind Rainbow in the Dark's design is this: to make us HAVE to work together as a team. DDO is built on D&D, and D&D was built on the premise of the whole being greater than the sum of the parts: A team of different characters of different classes bringing unique abilities working together would be stronger than several individuals working independently. Are some of our players SO anti-social that they can NOT cooperate with and stay physically near a party of other players for the duration of even ONE quest? DDO is a Mass MULTI-PLAYER Online Role Play game. If this change bothers you because you cannot now run off alone in Rainbow in the Dark, or must wait for others, or stand still to provide the illumination for another player, then I submit that you are missing the point of the MULTI-PLAYER part of MMORPG. Think about it...and next time you are in quest, ANY quest, with other people maybe you can stop yourself from running ahead and proving to yourself how ubber you are and instead slow down, offer some of your experienced advice to the newer/less talented players lagging behind, maybe even ask them, "Is there something I can do to help you out friend?" It might take you longer to run the quest, it might not, but if you do it with sincerity and compassion you will make some friends.
    Last edited by Thumbed_Servant; 05-17-2014 at 06:50 PM.
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  18. #18
    Community Member Dawnsblood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thumbed_Servant View Post
    We as a forum community ask for, beg for, plead for, demand a reduction in lag as often as we ask for all other things combined. Now, Turbine says they have a means of reducing the lag; this reduction in lag will have a very minor negative effect for us the players of removing a light source useful in one quest, but as it will reduce lag it will have beneficial results for us across the entire game, and we are complaining? :O

    For those who play Favored Souls: Is the removal of one special *trick* for one quest out of all the quests really a slight against you? Be honest, have you really suffered something irreparable? Your archon will still attack things for you, but won't allow you to run off alone in Rainbow in the Dark. Ok, so, time to work WITH the party for once. I play clerics, I've summoned an archon to help in Rainbow in the Dark, and I am not upset in the least that this is going away.

    Yes, Rainbow in the Dark has a unique mechanic. I have never NOT understood it. I could be wrong, but my understanding of the intent behind Rainbow in the Dark's design is this: to make us HAVE to work together as a team. DDO is built on D&D, and D&D was built on the premise of the whole being greater than the sum of the parts: A team of different characters of different classes bringing unique abilities working together would be stronger than several individuals working independently. Are some of our players SO anti-social that they can NOT cooperate with and stay physically near a party of other players for the duration of even ONE quest? DDO is a Mass MULTI-PLAYER Online Role Play game. If this change bothers you because you cannot now run off alone in Rainbow in the Dark, or must wait for others, or stand still to provide the illumination for another player, then I submit that you are missing the point of the MULTI-PLAYER part of MMORPG. Think about it...and next time you are in quest, ANY quest, with other people maybe you can stop yourself from running ahead and proving to yourself how ubber you are and instead slow down, offer some of your experienced advice to the newer/less talented players lagging behind, maybe even ask them, "Is there something I can do to help you out friend?" It might take you longer to run the quest, it might not, but if you do it with sincerity and compassion you will make some friends.
    Yes it is based on D&D. Have you played a proper game? It is a very multi-player type game. But I have never played an entire adventure where: a) The party went into a dungeon where they did not bring multiple torches or light spells and b) Did not at time split up. I was delighted when the archons lit the place up because it made it a bit easier to fetch the laggards and made the jumps less of a pain. Stationing a FVS on one side and the 'torchbearer' on the other of the chasms made bad jumps a rarity because everyone could actually see regardless of how bad their individual computer setups were.

    I still think the best compromise is the one we would have had in a tabletop game: A) Like Ellis said, place more torches at the beginning, B) Allow players to purchase and bring their own torches (This one is very D&D) or c) Allow spellcasters to do that whole light spell thing (another very D&D thing).

  19. #19
    Community Member PsychoBlonde's Avatar
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    You guys really need to distinguish between lag (which is a CONNECTION issue) and framerate drops which are a PERFORMANCE issue. The two are not necessarily related and referring to ANY kind of slowdown as "lag" is really not productive.

  20. #20
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    I actually found a way to entirely get rid of lag. It has a 100% guarantee of working also. If you consistently use it, you will never experience lag again. What is this method you ask? Why it's Alt-F4, the magic key combination!
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