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  1. #1
    Community Member Lagin's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Devs, A plea for Mithril

    Mithril got passed over for several reasons in the last few updates. And we were given a "reason" why.

    "There are items which are Mithril but not in the item description"

    From what I remember, this was the response we got. Ok, I can understand that.

    But... there are not that many items IMO which can keep this from being attended to.

    I'll lay out the basic idea, and hopefully the community will fill in the exact numbers and other ideas.

    Give Mithril the benefit of the next higher (medium & heavy) AC/ PRR, etc....

    Give Mithril the benefit of the next lower dex modifiers. (some have suggested removing dex cap completely)

    Mithril SHOULD be one of the best choices for armor, based on recent changes to dodge/evasion/prr/ac etc.....

    This can be a great step in helping with "balance" issue. (That speaks for itself.)

    PLEASE, at least, lets start some dialogue about this.

  2. #2
    Community Member hp1055cm's Avatar
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    Armor is one of the most underdeveloped aspects of the game, especially on heroic levels.
    Cannith crafted armor is almost pointless, and outside of a few named armors you can practically get by with plentiful random armor.

    I wear my level 14 Parasitic breastplate through level 25 because there aren't any other light armors that make a difference. Goristro maybe at 23, but named and hardly better if at all.
    (I get that some people use Dragonscale or Dragon-touched or whatever at 14...)

    I have a Mithril breastplate set I used to craft for use on TRing level 1-10 but now I don't even bother since crafting Invulnerability costs 4ML. The benefit of Mithril is offset by being not quite as good as the next armor up and its a pain to craft it - augment slots make it useless because of the ML cost. There are 10 named light armors at level 2 -6 that are all but identical and just about as good.
    Not that it matters to me anymore - I have TR accounts and heroic levels are easy.

    It is really sad how the unintended consequences of progress (game updates) don't take the strategy and relevance of the entire game into context.
    Last edited by hp1055cm; 05-13-2014 at 11:43 AM.

  3. #3
    Community Member Psiandron's Avatar
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    /signed.

    I really believe this would be a nice, albeit modest start at changing/improving the armor situation.

    Also, there's nothing that would indicate that this would be a bugger to code either. Ofc,...
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    and then dropped it like a burning kitten

  4. #4
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    Yes, its a bit silly that mithril actually reduces the PRR of armour, full plate should give normal full plate PRR regardless of material and the same for medium. Yes, mithril drops it to the class of armour one level down and there may be problems with the way its currently coded but still would be nice if mithril kept the correct PRR for the armour type and both it and adamantine were reintroduced into the random armours as well.

  5. #5
    Hopeless Romantic dunklezhan's Avatar
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    Yeah armour and weapon materials are fairly central to all DnD worlds, Eberron especially. Ironwood, Densewood, Mithril, Flametouched, Cold Iron, Byeshk and Adamantine should all appear in the random loot gen for armour and weapons of all levels, in addition to 'mountainforged' or what have you, with relevant durability, PRR, Dex, Skill adjustments as required.

    That's just my general view. Specific numbers on those adjustments would of course be subject to debate. Random half formed thoughts follow:

    Mithral would reduce requirements for wearing armour (turning medium armour into something that only counts as light) but not the actual defensive stats - so a medium mithral breastplate is exactly the same as a standard medium ordinary metal breastplate... but can be worn by those who can only wear light armour. It should have lower encumbrance, and likely greater durability, giving it at least a partial edge over standard medium armours for a medium armour wearer too. Maybe it has +1 dex and dodge cap and skill penalties are 1 better. Maybe. It should also be worth a damn fortune compared to any other metal type. It's mithril.

    Adamantine should keep the armour the same 'class' (light medium heavy) but bump up the stats - rather than AC (which I always think of as representing coverage as much as it does damage absorbing capabilities), I would say it likely should provide either a small PRR multiplier (e.g. +1% per 'class' of armour, or +.-25% per Absolute ML maybe)/or maybe a PRR flat boost based on the armour Absolute ML. I wouldn't bother with straight up DR on something as awesome as Adamantine should be, not the way damage works these days. Adamantine should also have increased durability and hardness but not weight. Adamantine should be the ultimate defensive material.

    Ironwood/Densewood would just make the armour wearable by druids, probably with decreased hardness and durability and maybe a couple of points lower AC, but basically the same as the standard metal version.

    The rest i suspect would all grant bonuses to saves and/or DR and/or PRR vs certain types of creatures' melee attacks.


    All the above is random off top of my head. i don't claim it to be right. Fundamentally, all I'm saying is that materials matter in DnD, and so they should matter in DDO - mithril and adamantine especially.
    Last edited by dunklezhan; 05-13-2014 at 01:07 PM.
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  6. #6
    Community Member Lagin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunklezhan View Post
    Yeah armour and weapon materials are fairly central to all DnD worlds, Eberron especially. Ironwood, Densewood, Mithril, Flametouched, Cold Iron, Byeshk and Adamantine should all appear in the random loot gen for armour and weapons of all levels, in addition to 'mountainforged' or what have you, with relevant durability, PRR, Dex, Skill adjustments as required.

    That's just my general view. Specific numbers on those adjustments would of course be subject to debate. Random half formed thoughts follow:

    Mithral would reduce requirements for wearing armour (turning medium armour into something that only counts as light) but not the actual defensive stats - so a medium mithral breastplate is exactly the same as a standard medium ordinary metal breastplate... but can be worn by those who can only wear light armour. It should have lower encumbrance, and likely greater durability, giving it at least a partial edge over standard medium armours for a medium armour wearer too. Maybe it has +1 dex and dodge cap and skill penalties are 1 better. Maybe. It should also be worth a damn fortune compared to any other metal type. It's mithril.

    Adamantine should keep the armour the same 'class' (light medium heavy) but bump up the stats - rather than AC (which I always think of as representing coverage as much as it does damage absorbing capabilities), I would say it likely should provide either a small PRR multiplier (e.g. +1% per 'class' of armour, or +.-25% per Absolute ML maybe)/or maybe a PRR flat boost based on the armour Absolute ML. I wouldn't bother with straight up DR on something as awesome as Adamantine should be, not the way damage works these days. Adamantine should also have increased durability and hardness but not weight. Adamantine should be the ultimate defensive material.

    Ironwood/Densewood would just make the armour wearable by druids, probably with decreased hardness and durability and maybe a couple of points lower AC, but basically the same as the standard metal version.

    The rest i suspect would all grant bonuses to saves and/or DR and/or PRR vs certain types of creatures' melee attacks.


    All the above is random off top of my head. i don't claim it to be right. Fundamentally, all I'm saying is that materials matter in DnD, and so they should matter in DDO - mithril and adamantine especially.
    /This... ALL of this and moar.
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  7. #7
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    /Signed. To all of the above. Signed, signed and signed again.

    Please make it so.

    Greetz,
    Red Orm
    Will Cannith-craft (150 levels in all schools) for free on Khyber (mail Ninevrisei) if you provide the needed materials.

  8. #8
    Community Member Grimlock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ferd View Post
    Mithril got passed over for several reasons in the last few updates. And we were given a "reason" why.

    "There are items which are Mithril but not in the item description"

    From what I remember, this was the response we got. Ok, I can understand that.

    But... there are not that many items IMO which can keep this from being attended to.

    I'll lay out the basic idea, and hopefully the community will fill in the exact numbers and other ideas.

    Give Mithril the benefit of the next higher (medium & heavy) AC/ PRR, etc....

    Give Mithril the benefit of the next lower dex modifiers. (some have suggested removing dex cap completely)

    Mithril SHOULD be one of the best choices for armor, based on recent changes to dodge/evasion/prr/ac etc.....

    This can be a great step in helping with "balance" issue. (That speaks for itself.)

    PLEASE, at least, lets start some dialogue about this.
    AC means nothing. Dodge is the new AC. Until we get another massive defensive/AC overhaul this does not matter as we have people taking 2+ levels of monk in lieu of wearing armor. Nerf monkchers. Nerf monks. Make AC mean something again.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by hp1055cm View Post
    Armor is one of the most underdeveloped aspects of the game, especially on heroic levels.
    Cannith crafted armor is almost pointless, and outside of a few named armors you can practically get by with plentiful random armor.
    Actually, Cannith crafted can be useful with armor, it's just that Invulnerability specifically isn't all that good any more.

    Warpriests get 5/- DR easily anyway and Greater Stability is a nice way to slot +4 Resistance, for the True Neutral. I just recently tried and was able to make Life Shield +1 of Greater Stability (no slots) a bit before being able to wear it... I suppose it might get less useful on second and subsequent lives if I can get "TR twink gear" or whatever you more experienced people call it, but I certainly haven't managed to get anything better than that to drop, nor have I been lucky with the AH in that regard.
    No longer completely f2p as of November 2014. Father of 3 more DDO players so far (I do have more children than that).
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  10. #10
    Founder Krell's Avatar
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    I think random loot in general is pretty boring. There are very few things that can come out of random loot that has any wow factor for me. I remember at launch that +5 mithril armor was a big deal. Finding Vorpal weapons, banishers, smiters, and disruptors were a big deal. I've played other Turbine games that had fun loot systems. Asheron's Call had more armor pieces and each could have rare "major" effects. Color combinations and styles were distinct so collecting a full set of matching colors with the right combinations of "major" effects was a great accomplishment before color dye was introduced. Not all that applies to DDO but I think there is a good opportunity to make random loot interesting again with unique effects, artwork, metal types, etc. For example what if an "Crown War" armor had an effect that was the equivalent of up to a +7 tome while equipped? What if "Dawn Age Mithril" granted stacking melee alacrity? Just random thoughts but the point is I think there is a lot of opportunity to have fun with rare effects in random loot to make it fun again, and maybe tie it to some realm history.
    Ghallanda: Save the newbie, save the world.

  11. #11
    Community Member Nestroy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunklezhan View Post
    (...)
    Mithril does not work on mittigating the amor requirements. If I can only use light armor for being able to use certain feats, a mithril breastplate (medium armor if not mithril) is stated and supposed to count as light armor, but does not. While you might be perfectly right with your suggestions, as usual, Turbine / the devs would need to do their homework first before implementing thingies that will be brooken like hell upon hitting live.

    /signed for the general idea. But my scepticism of Turbine willing or able to do this right (especially on a game that old like DDO) remains.

  12. #12
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CeltEireson View Post
    Yes, its a bit silly that mithril actually reduces the PRR of armour, full plate should give normal full plate PRR regardless of material and the same for medium. Yes, mithril drops it to the class of armour one level down and there may be problems with the way its currently coded but still would be nice if mithril kept the correct PRR for the armour type and both it and adamantine were reintroduced into the random armours as well.
    Indeed, from my uneducated view it seems like it should be as easy as:

    • Base values determined by Material Type (Skirmish, Battle, Celestial, etc.)

    • PRR is determined by name (Full Plate/Half Plate, Breast Plate/Chain)

    • Encumbrance variables like -X Skill Check, Max Dex Bonus etc. receive a category shift when tagged Mithril.

    Is that more complex to code than it sounds?

    Edit: The above would also allow for the reintroduction of the Leaf & Wood material tags, so that sober Druids will be less screwed in the armor department. I still have a set of plain +1 Darkleaf Banded Mail that I use for Druid lives until they can use the stuff from Tempest Spine.
    Last edited by PermaBanned; 05-14-2014 at 12:30 AM.
    I would still like to see... Something that tests character versatility and player adaptability rather than character focus strength and quest knowledge.
    I play the quests for the content of the quests not just as an XP/min merry-go-round.
    Actual play experience is worth infinitely more than theorycrafting...

  13. #13
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    I'll go along with this - for some reason a long while back I started collecting mithril equipment and have quite a lot of it lying around.

    It would be nice to see it being useful
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  14. #14
    Community Member Rykka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nestroy View Post
    Mithril does not work on mittigating the amor requirements. If I can only use light armor for being able to use certain feats, a mithril breastplate (medium armor if not mithril) is stated and supposed to count as light armor, but does not. While you might be perfectly right with your suggestions, as usual, Turbine / the devs would need to do their homework first before implementing thingies that will be brooken like hell upon hitting live.

    /signed for the general idea. But my scepticism of Turbine willing or able to do this right (especially on a game that old like DDO) remains.
    It doesn't? I thought I was getting the tempest no/light armor enh dodge bonus during my ranger life with a +5 mithral breastplate... I chose not to pursue mithral because I picked up Snakeskin (two of em on a single run actually), because mithral breastplates lost armor level scaling, and because they lost medium armor PRR.

    Still wouldn't mind seeing Elemental Mithral Breastplate drop some day.

  15. #15
    Community Member Nestroy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rykka View Post
    It doesn't? I thought I was getting the tempest no/light armor enh dodge bonus during my ranger life with a +5 mithral breastplate... I chose not to pursue mithral because I picked up Snakeskin (two of em on a single run actually), because mithral breastplates lost armor level scaling, and because they lost medium armor PRR.

    Still wouldn't mind seeing Elemental Mithral Breastplate drop some day.
    I can asure you that the rogue evasion is not working on mithral breastplates. I have had the problem - and with leather armor it was just working fine. Bug has been reported.

  16. #16
    Community Member Rykka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nestroy View Post
    I can asure you that the rogue evasion is not working on mithral breastplates. I have had the problem - and with leather armor it was just working fine. Bug has been reported.
    My character didn't get ranger evasion until char L12 and I'd switched to Snakeskin by then.

  17. #17
    Community Member Lagin's Avatar
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    After talking w/ quite a few people lately to get some more feedback in-game, a few points keep rising up on this.

    Evasion. By the simple description of Mithril, both light & medium armors should grant it. FP should grant it if points are spent in a tree w/ armor training.

    Armor check penalty, remove it.

    Max dex bonus, BP = 12, FP = 6. (chain should be zero)

    PRR should grant the next higher armor type (not lower)

    A trained melee character, wearing Mithril would have more agility than what is being allowed. That is the short answer to this.

  18. #18
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    The armour system was nessed up when they did the whole combat system change when the cap was raised above 20.

    They were in such a rush to meet deadlines that they had no time to take any feedback or consider any alternatives to the system they quickly improvised.

    In the process, all the special armour types got forgotten - darkleaf, adamantine, mithral - and there has been no willingness to bother to reintegrate them since.
    He left the name, at which the world grew pale.

    Math never helps solve problems, it only further complicates them.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nestroy View Post
    I can asure you that the rogue evasion is not working on mithral breastplates. I have had the problem - and with leather armor it was just working fine. Bug has been reported.
    Worked just fine when I tried, a couple of months ago. (Got the Elemental Mithral Breastplate from Tempest's Spine on a mostly-rogue, used it for a while for a lack of anything better while also not having much of a +Dex item... yes, Evasion did work.)



    Then again that is a named item which probably means it's individually typed as light armor, in the code?

    Random loot mithral breastplate is (from being a breastplate) normally medium and then should get the material-type effect to lower that to light... I wouldn't be at all surprised if the bug was in the material-type effect not happening completely, so would only affect those that need the material-type effect to work...
    Last edited by mna; 05-14-2014 at 10:12 AM.
    No longer completely f2p as of November 2014. Father of 3 more DDO players so far (I do have more children than that).
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  20. #20
    Community Member Nestroy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mna View Post
    Worked just fine when I tried, a couple of months ago. (Got the Elemental Mithral Breastplate from Tempest's Spine on a mostly-rogue, used it for a while for a lack of anything better while also not having much of a +Dex item... yes, Evasion did work.)



    Then again that is a named item which probably means it's individually typed as light armor, in the code?

    Random loot mithral breastplate is (from being a breastplate) normally medium and then should get the material-type effect to lower that to light... I wouldn't be at all surprised if the bug was in the material-type effect not happening completely, so would only affect those that need the material-type effect to work...
    I had the problem with the Mithral Breastplate from Tempest Spine, so idk... I will test the Parasitic Breastplate today, let´s see.

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