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  1. #121
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakeelala View Post
    I've edited this 7/24/14 to reflect that there is no reason to be drow anymore, just go Halfling. Since Halfling crit threat range enhancements to thrown weapons is fixed, it is the superior choice by a healthy margin.

    Stats: Dex 20, Wis 16, rest Con and Int for skillz

    Halfing
    1 Rogue: PBS
    2 Monk: Dodge
    3 Monk: Rapid Shot, Precision
    4 Monk:
    5 Monk:
    6 Monk: Shuriken Expertise
    7 Monk: 10K
    8 Wizard: Extend
    9 Wizard: Rapid Shot
    10 Wizard
    11 Wizard
    12 Wizard: Precise Shot, Quicken (Could take MT if you want)
    13 Monk
    14 Monk
    15 Monk: IC Thrown
    16 Monk
    17 Monk
    18 Monk: IPS
    19 Rogue
    20 Rogue
    Epic21: Completionist
    Epic24: Deflect Arrows
    Epic26: Who Cares
    Epic27: Epic Reflexes
    Epic28: DoubleShot
    ...
    I think you took Rapid Shot twice at 3 & 9.

    Did you mean to take Quick Draw or something else?

  2. #122
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nodoze View Post
    I think you took Rapid Shot twice at 3 & 9.

    Did you mean to take Quick Draw or something else?
    Yes good catch on the typo. Lvl 9 should be Quickdraw

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakeelala View Post
    [B]
    Epic26: Who Cares
    Does PTWF 5% doublestrike work with ranged? Shield feats did not.

  4. #124
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    Does PTWF 5% doublestrike work with ranged? Shield feats did not.
    Been wondering the same but i do not know i haven't tested

  5. #125
    Community Member Hobgoblin's Avatar
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    didnt read everything in here, but have you considered combat archery?

    not sure what you would take out, but seems like it would be a dps addition

    hob
    main toons: hauteur(silly caster) Sttomper (silly barbarian)-jammiee (Silly paladin)
    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    You are still completely free to run around like a jackrabbit on caffeine.
    quem deus vult perdere, dementat prius

  6. #126
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobgoblin View Post
    didnt read everything in here, but have you considered combat archery?

    not sure what you would take out, but seems like it would be a dps addition

    hob
    its only 1.5 damage a star. By end game with top end gear this build is around 600-700 Damage/Throw Animation (@~.63 Throws per second). While that's certainly not nothing, it's not much better than a Dex. If you need the Dodge, I say go for it.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakeelala View Post
    Been wondering the same but i do not know i haven't tested
    Would be a no.

  8. #128
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    Got 2 PM's today asking about my Shiradi layout.

    Tier 1: Stay Frosty and Dex
    Tier 2: Pinx2 and Dex
    Tier 3: Ottosx2 and Dex and Whirling Wristsx3 (can get away with x2)
    Tier 4: Dex and In the Weedsx2 (only if you need the dodge, otherwise go to 2 in Healing Spring or Stay Good)
    Tier 5: Nerve Venomx3 and Dex

    Just try to get your Dex even

    Double Rainbow is for suckers

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakeelala View Post

    Double Rainbow is for suckers
    I had been wondering about this as I like stay frosty due to its reliable consistency. Would you care to comment on your reasons?

    Also in a different post you mentioned a bard shuriken thrower which you thought on paper would be pretty awesome. Could you pm some details as I was considering trying another toon into bard thrower but couldn't decide if it would work out without the monk splash for tier two ninjas spy.

  10. #130
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakeelala View Post
    Got 2 PM's today asking about my Shiradi layout. ... Double Rainbow is for suckers
    I would agree if someone else in your party is taking the Aggro and/or CCing things that your points would be better spent elsewhere but if solo or in a group with no other CC/AoEs it is hard to put a numeric value on CC mobs that can't do anything or at least can't move fast enough to reach anyone...

    We are running 2-3 ranged characters in a group (me with 1-2 daughters on) and having the WarCannon charge in ahead of everyone grabbing all initial sight aggro and and circle kiting around IceStorm &/or Cloudkill while popping all sorts of AoE damage & CC (from Celestia/Meteoric Ruby/DoubleRainbow/Colors-of-the-Queen-Past-Life-Stance/Pin/Whistler/Nerve-Venom/etc...) helps quite a bit. When I do get caught having full reconstructs to get back to full on my own is helpful...

    In our our initial runs thus far my daughter running the Meteor Shower build is able to sneak up and so far get lots of sneak attacks in and when mobs do realize she has them targeted they typically are CC or dead before they can get to her... I haven't played on her character yet but it does look like she is doing tons of single target damage already and she still has many levels to go to fully blossom (we are both ~18 now after we both TRed)... For reference my other daughter is running a Monkcher.

  11. #131
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    I dont know about you, but I have ZERO trouble with CC with Nerve Venom, Otto, and Pin. The additional CC is totally unoticeable from Double Rainbow. It's unpredictability, in my mind, mitigates it's ability to be useful. Regular rainbow is the only exception, with 7% to do d100 (~3 damage/missile).

    I'd be willing to hear arguments for Keeping Rainbow, but Double Rainbow just doesn't bring much to the table. Dex always brings more to the table. Against bosses I feel Double Rainbow is reduced to 20-33% effectiveness based on how many of it's procs don't do anything to red or purple names. Better to take more general purpose damage options. Your CC and ability to make mobs helpless is second only to a DC caster at this point.

  12. #132
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakeelala View Post
    I dont know about you, but I have ZERO trouble with CC with Nerve Venom, Otto, and Pin. The additional CC is totally unoticeable from Double Rainbow. It's unpredictability, in my mind, mitigates it's ability to be useful. Regular rainbow is the only exception, with 7% to do d100 (~3 damage/missile).

    I'd be willing to hear arguments for Keeping Rainbow, but Double Rainbow just doesn't bring much to the table. Dex always brings more to the table. Against bosses I feel Double Rainbow is reduced to 20-33% effectiveness based on how many of it's procs don't do anything to red or purple names. Better to take more general purpose damage options. Your CC and ability to make mobs helpless is second only to a DC caster at this point.
    Different people have different play styles, objectives, and experiences and thus make different choices but their informed choices don't make them "suckers" nor otherwise mean they should be denigrated...

    It should be noted that my soloing is different than yours as I typically multi-box with up to 6 accounts on at a time and with the Dungeon Scaling it is like soloing with up to 5 pikers. I do this as I like to have many (some flavor) builds and like to multiply the benefits of my play time by having 6 toons get XP at the same time as well as I like getting 6 chances for rare loot per run/ransack. Typically I have no more than 1-2 of my 5 kids on with me at a time but even then we have increased scaling to contend with (especially when I park 3-4 pikers at the entrance)...

    Even when I don't leave any pikers at the door I am playing with my young kids and need to really control aggro for some of them to enjoy the game.

    It should be noted that Nerve Venom is also random CC and thus the only things you mentioned that I would have control of is Otto and Pin and to me those 3 just aren't enough CC. For me & our goals room CC is more important that single target DPS (or line IPS DPS)... If I were to run into a room of mobs and just have those 3 methods I don't feel I could consistently lock the room down and keep my kids from getting swarmed. I appreciate your build and insights and I am glad you have zero trouble with just those 3 but I, and others on this forum &/or playing the game, are not you and may appreciate others sharing their experiences.

    For me I want as close to total room mob lock down & aggro control for my party (which includes kids) as I can get and I find multiple layers of random CC that also do damage helpful and overall more reliable (and am sick of playing casters right now)... Bottom line is that between opening aggro & circle kiting mobs through IceStorm & Cloudkill I slow down the entire group/game and typically give plenty of time for one of the many random CC effects to proc while under IPS (Celestia/Meteoric-Ruby/Double-Rainbow/Colors-of-the-Queen-Past-Life-Stance/Nerve-Venom/etc)... If I can find more (even random) no-save/no-DC CC I will take it (especially if it is AoE)... For me I find the ones I can directly control (Whistler/Pin) most important when I get unlucky or screw up and the mobs catch me or the mobs peel out of the circle kite and head for my kids...

    For max efficiency for our current progression/fun my ideal 3 person current party would be the following (which, kudos to you, includes two people using your builds):

    - younger Kid on your 12Monk/5Wizard/3Rogue;
    - older Kid on your 9Rogue/6Monk/5Wizard;
    - me on the WarCannon 11Wizard/6Monk/3Rogue;

    I could maybe also achieve most of my objectives on the Dread Ninja 12Wiz/6Monk/2Paladin build but I also wanted to have full trap capability without switching characters... My other objective was that I wanted real self healing on my toon and while both the Dread-Ninja & WarCannon builds have real self healing, I prefer instant self full 'heals' over undead healing.

    The above being said (typed) my older kid is actually staying on her Monkcher (Elven AA 12FvS/6Monk/2Paladin) for at least for now because she likes it and, even though is may not have as much DPS as your 9Rogue/6Monk/5Wizard, it is enough for us for at least now. Our focus is on eRs but maybe if we TR her we will try the 9Rogue/6Monk/5Wizard though I would personally prefer her to try the full monk capstone first before having 2 halflings in the party...

    Again thanks for posting your build and sharing your build/experiences as I & others find them helpful. Thankfully on the forums and the multiple parties on multiple servers there is room for much variation and differences.

  13. #133
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    Do what makes you happy, its a video game.

    But nerve venom is not random like double rainbow, it does exactly the same thing at a specific rate: 7% of the time. Thats not what double rainbow does.

    If you're having trouble with CC on these builds though, I would recommend you focus more on making good use of Pin and Whistle. I would say Pin and Whistle together are 60-75% of my CC. Every encounter you should be dancing and pinning at least two mobs with each ability everytime they are off timer. If that isnt happening, imho, you are not koving enough and maximizing your IPS. Which also means you arent maxing DPS. We can argue about Tensers and Dex scores all day, but everytime you add an enemy to your IPS Line Of Sight, you increase your DPS 100%. That is by far, as in an order of magnitude, the most important part of playing a Thrower build correctly. And if youre focusing on doing that and you've hot-barred Pin/Whistle, over time CC will become unconcious, in a harmony of maximum targets from good movement, consistent Pin/Whistle, maximizing shots on Targets for Nerve Venom, and therefore hitting as many mobs and much as possible while helpless. That is the true path to CC and DPS. And greatest CC in the world, is death.

    IPS = DPS.

    The rest is details.

  14. #134
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    Default Best Thrower Build?

    Jake, which one of your throwers is best with taking care of trash, as apposed to Bosses?

  15. #135
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakeelala View Post
    Do what makes you happy, its a video game.

    But nerve venom is not random like double rainbow, it does exactly the same thing at a specific rate: 7% of the time. Thats not what double rainbow does.

    If you're having trouble with CC on these builds though, I would recommend you focus more on making good use of Pin and Whistle. I would say Pin and Whistle together are 60-75% of my CC. Every encounter you should be dancing and pinning at least two mobs with each ability everytime they are off timer. If that isnt happening, imho, you are not koving enough and maximizing your IPS. Which also means you arent maxing DPS. We can argue about Tensers and Dex scores all day, but everytime you add an enemy to your IPS Line Of Sight, you increase your DPS 100%. That is by far, as in an order of magnitude, the most important part of playing a Thrower build correctly. And if youre focusing on doing that and you've hot-barred Pin/Whistle, over time CC will become unconcious, in a harmony of maximum targets from good movement, consistent Pin/Whistle, maximizing shots on Targets for Nerve Venom, and therefore hitting as many mobs and much as possible while helpless. That is the true path to CC and DPS. And greatest CC in the world, is death.

    IPS = DPS.

    The rest is details.
    Good points and agree IPS is DPS as I do love the IPS multiplier (except when running with a fascinating bard and someone trying to blitz as sometimes IPS ends up hitting unintended targets).

    I also hotbar and like Whistler/Pin (though I like Otto's Whistler much more) and use IPS to get as many mobs as possible with them though certainly I hope to get better with them over time... Whistler/Pin definitely lend themselves to straight-line kiting (rubber-banding) while I tend to prefer circle-kiting from my past lives with Blade Barrier on my Divines and Arties. Not all rooms lend enough runway to effectively line-kit and often hallways make circle-kiting difficult so it is good to have both in one's bag of tricks...

    Good advice and thanks again for the build... My daughter is liking it very much (and I am liking that she is enjoying playing the game again)...

  16. #136
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flute136 View Post
    Jake, which one of your throwers is best with taking care of trash, as apposed to Bosses?
    Honestly in Shiradi they all excel at trash detail.

    I would say the in order from best at trash to best at red names probably
    Best at Trash:
    Meteor 1
    Meteor 2
    Artichucker (not posted yet)
    Best at Red/Purp

    But really, Meteor 1 and 2 should be basically tied, with Meteor two actually being slightly more damage with a couple points lower on saves and a few less HP from Rogue vs. Monk levels.

  17. #137
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nodoze View Post
    Good points and agree IPS is DPS as I do love the IPS multiplier (except when running with a fascinating bard and someone trying to blitz as sometimes IPS ends up hitting unintended targets).

    I also hotbar and like Whistler/Pin (though I like Otto's Whistler much more) and use IPS to get as many mobs as possible with them though certainly I hope to get better with them over time... Whistler/Pin definitely lend themselves to straight-line kiting (rubber-banding) while I tend to prefer circle-kiting from my past lives with Blade Barrier on my Divines and Arties. Not all rooms lend enough runway to effectively line-kit and often hallways make circle-kiting difficult so it is good to have both in one's bag of tricks...

    Good advice and thanks again for the build... My daughter is liking it very much (and I am liking that she is enjoying playing the game again)...
    I'm very glad to hear this. Its also nice to know it's intuitive and powerful enough that someone who maybe isn't an end game power gamer is enjoying it and able to be successful.

  18. #138
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakeelala View Post
    Honestly in Shiradi they all excel at trash detail.
    ...
    But really, Meteor 1 and 2 should be basically tied, with Meteor two actually being slightly more damage with a couple points lower on saves and a few less HP from Rogue vs. Monk levels.
    With Meteor1 at 12 Monk you also get double the Fast Movement Feats and get Abundant Step as well as Improved Evasion while the Meteor2 does not get those and for us and our objectives those are worth way more than a little extra DPS.

    Following the build you don't take your 2nd and 3rd levels of Rogue until 19 and 20 so you have extra AP to bank for (or spend that you later respec and spend into) Rogue. The build only specifies 72 AP so to try it I put 3 into Ninja Spy Stealthy (+3 hide/move silently & +1 passive Ki regeneration when sneaking) & 6 AP into Ninja Spy Faster Sneaking (+50% move speed while sneaking) while waiting for Rogue 3. This has encouraged my daughter to sneak everywhere behind me both getting her Ki back faster and making her less of a target. With the extra run speed and those AP allocated I don't feel like I am always waiting for her as she keeps up pretty well and when she gets behind she catches up pretty fast (even while sneaking).

    EDIT: Once we got to 20 we respec'ed & kept the +1 passive Ki regen while sneaking from Ninja Spy 'Stealthy' but took the 'Faster Sneaking' from the Rogue TA tree as it only costs 1AP per tier there (instead of 2 AP per tier). Since it is so easy/inexpensive to reset AP I think while Heroic leveling we would still focus on putting AP into the Ninja tree to get as high in that tree as possible while waiting for levels 19 & 20 to get our 2nd and 3rd Rogue levels. For awhile we had enough AP in Monk Ninja tree to get +30% damage to Helpless opponents (No Mercy) but unfortunately once we spread the AP into Rogue I couldn't figure out a way to keep 'No Mercy' after spending 17 AP in Halfling, 31 AP in EK, & 13 AP in Rogue TA.
    Last edited by Nodoze; 08-12-2014 at 09:43 AM.

  19. #139
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Just wanted to give you a quick update at level 18...

    We are now both wearing a Deception and Improved Deception items (both got got HE Backstabber's Gloves at 14 and Golden Guile at 17. We are mainly duoing as the third character in the trio is waiting for us at 25 and it is crazy to see the mobs stopping and turning around all the time due the the quadruple Deception procs...

    Things are working really well and when she does more damage than me on her target by the time that mob realizes it and tries to run to her the mob typically dies before it gets there (or shortly thereafter)... The deceptions really helps when she is getting chased.

    My self healing is great with full quickened reconstructs (I scroll heal when not in combat or low on mana) but she has to really watch the aggro as until epics she only has pots because her UMD isn't yet high enough to be reliable. Her self-healing should be greatly shored up and fine for her role/play-style once we hit 20 and can twist cocoon. I can see a difference in spell/trap damage with her Improved Evasion over my regular Evasion.

    Thanks again.

    EDIT: At 20 we worked on twisting Cocoon and at 22 we got her a ThunderForged Shuriken (slotted with Positive Spell power until we can slot it somewhere else) and her self healing is much improved and works well if she doesn't have too much aggro. Still not anywhere as strong as full quickened Reconstructs but greatly improved and works well if she doesn't take more than 150 HP of more damage (busting the temp HP and breaking the HoT) while the Cocoon Heal over Time (HoT) is ticking.
    Last edited by Nodoze; 08-12-2014 at 09:47 AM.

  20. #140
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    I do not know if anyone else has saw this or not but on the feat i did not see Grandmaster of forms on both of the shurikens builds meteor1 and meteor2

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