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  1. #41
    Community Member Firewall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nodoze View Post
    (...)I had read that both Obscuring Mist and CloudKill give 20% Concealment that works on red/purple-named even when Displacement/Blur don't work on those red/purples... Are you sure they stack with other types of Concealment on non-red/purples (I am normally Displaced and thought they both gave Enhancement bonuses with the difference being AoE and works against red/purple)? I was originally thinking of just using one of these for Bosses (which are immune to poison) but learning that the damage effects also proc Shiradi effects gives me even more incentive to try them for regular mobs...

    Thanks again for sharing !
    I have not tested it for a long time but as far as i know they used to stack. At least against red-nameds and monsters with true seeing it was commonly used as a damage mitigation method for end bosses in various raids and since it is a debuff for the monster whereas Blur or Displacement are a buff to yourself i supposed it would be a different type of concealment. At least one that seems to ignore True Seeing so it looks like it works differently from the other sources. I have read other sources that claim it does not stack anymore so i can't say for sure.

    I think the same question could be asked concerning blindness and displacement. One is a debuff and one is a buff and blindness cannot be negated by true seeing. I have not tested if they stack either but in this case i have never heard that they do stack.

    As for the spellpower to boost damage spells i used midwinter festival glaciation to get 120 cold spellpower which boosts the cold damage as well as the bludgeoning part of ice storm and of course shiradi cold damage from the Shiradi Rainbow Stance. You also get some force spellpower boost from the eldritch knight tree and there also are augments that you can use if you have free slots in your gear (force and sonic would be beneficial here).
    Last edited by Firewall; 07-19-2014 at 10:23 PM.

  2. #42
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firewall View Post
    I have not tested it for a long time but as far as i know they used to stack. At least against red-nameds and monsters with true seeing it was commonly used as a damage mitigation method for end bosses in various raids and since it is a debuff for the monster whereas Blur or Displacement are a buff to yourself i supposed it would be a different type of concealment. At least one that seems to ignore True Seeing so it looks like it works differently from the other sources. I have read other sources that claim it does not stack anymore so i can't say for sure.

    I think the same question could be asked concerning blindness and displacement. One is a debuff and one is a buff and blindness cannot be negated by true seeing. I have not tested if they stack either but in this case i have never heard that they do stack.

    As for the spellpower to boost damage spells i used midwinter festival glaciation to get 120 cold spellpower which boosts the cold damage as well as the bludgeoning part of ice storm and of course shiradi cold damage from the Shiradi Rainbow Stance. You also get some force spellpower boost from the eldritch knight tree and there also are augments that you can use if you have free slots in your gear (force and sonic would be beneficial here).
    Thanks for the insights & with things always changing it is hard to know for sure what is working which way today (& even if that is verified there is always question whether it will be working that way tomorrow ;-)... Even if Blindness doesn't stack it is helpful on a build that tries to keep mobs at a distance...

    Per the Wiki Blur, Displacement, & AoE Concealment are typed as Enhancement bonuses to Concealment inferring they don't stack but even if they don't the AoE spells are likely still worth it for both Bosses to give 20% mitigation when they can see though Blur/Displacement & and Shiradi procs on mobs & for the CC/slow on non-bosses... My initial testing showed that just the CC/slow really seems to help with circle kiting so just that alone is a win helping give me a relative speed boost as CC/relative-speed is life on these builds...

    Regarding spell damage lines per the wiki Ice Storm benefits as follows: "Force enhancement lines now work on this spell (as well as cold). The spell uses the highest enhancement line to determine additional damage, and does not allow multiple enhancement lines to affect the spell."

    Regarding spell lines in addition to Repair, my initial inclination was to go with Cold as unlike on my Artificer I don't really have a Force spell focus on this build & apparently cold could help both types of damage from Ice Storm, cold Shiradi procs, & Niac's biting cold (if focusing on Boss DPS). Unfortunately in testing Niac's cooldown gets too extended if I stay in Tensor's so I will have to think about that more & do more testing to see if it is worth it for Bosses...

    Interesting idea about the midwinter festival glaciation. Currently I am focusing on Epic Reincarnations going repeatedly from 20-28 & using various random ML20 or ML24 Spell-Touched Shuriken or ML24+ ThuderForged shuriken. Do you know if the festival glaciation works with any of those?

    I am currently getting +90 repair spell power from my Epic Ring of the Master Artifice & have an Orange slot available on my TF shuriken so I could put Cold in that slot if nothing really better is available.

    What do you recommend to use the Orange slot on for your builds?
    Last edited by Nodoze; 07-20-2014 at 05:58 AM.

  3. #43
    Community Member Firewall's Avatar
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    According to DDOWiki the Festival Glaciation spellpower works on

    (Armor/Robe/Shield/Cosmetic Armor/Cosmetic Helm only)
    so no weapons included.

    The interesting part is the cosmetic stuff so you will have the spellpower on a totally new item slot. Remember that it will have a minimum level after the spellpower is applied though.

    For an augment it is best to boost force/untyped damage and sonic damage since the damage from the shiradi core abilities have a higher chance to proc and force spellpower also boosts your Ice Storm damage.

    As of what to use in the orange slot depends on what you have and what you need. If the ring of the artificer is boosting your reconstruct enough for your liking slot a Meteoric Star Ruby (which also provides AOE CC) if you can get one. If not slot reconstruct there or use a TF shortsword with repair spellpower (depending on if you have Celestia and a planar focus and prefer more DPS or better repairs).
    Last edited by Firewall; 07-20-2014 at 10:51 AM.

  4. #44
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firewall View Post
    According to DDOWiki the Festival Glaciation spellpower works on "(Armor/Robe/Shield/Cosmetic Armor/Cosmetic Helm only)" so no weapons included.

    The interesting part is the cosmetic stuff so you will have the spellpower on a totally new item slot. Remember that it will have a minimum level after the spellpower is applied though.

    For an augment it is best to boost force/untyped damage and sonic damage since the damage from the shiradi core abilities have a higher chance to proc and force spellpower also boosts your Ice Storm damage.

    As of what to use in the orange slot depends on what you have and what you need. If the ring of the artificer is boosting your reconstruct enough for your liking slot a Meteoric Star Ruby (which also provides AOE CC) if you can get one. If not slot reconstruct there or use a TF shortsword with repair spellpower (depending on if you have Celestia and a planar focus and prefer more DPS or better repairs).
    Wow. I read that exact page and totally missed that focusing on the Description column thinking it had to be a weapon slot... I figured the Resistance was an armor item but not the SP boost so very good to know and I have 2 cosmetic items available so now both are on my list to add (may do multiple to cover the a couple of ML areas).

    I am currently running with Celestia (and really like the AoE procs) but, since I am also our parties trapper & for UMD, in the trinket spot from 20->25 I am using a fully upgraded 'Epic Treasure Hunter's Spyglass' and then from 26+ I am using an upgraded Manual of Stealthy Pilfering.

    I am currently finishing fully upgrading both my Epic Ring of the Master Artifice & Epic Ring of the Stalker (both just got upgraded to Tier 2 and I am now working on Tier 3). The boost to Repair SP may be lack-luster at 28 and there may be better overall gear at 28 but currently I am just ERing when I get to 28 and I like them as at least ER rings for 20->27 to cover multiple slots as I progress and swap ML gear.

    I will keep an eye out for the Meteoric Star Ruby with the AoE CC/damage proc. I was originally looking at a Ruby of Endless Night for more drains on trash or one of the AoE Damage rubies but the Meteoric sounds interesting considering I am running in and getting all & trying to keep all aggro from my ranged party members.
    Last edited by Nodoze; 07-20-2014 at 01:44 PM.

  5. #45
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Finally got Cloudkill (had to wait for it to show up on the AH) and did a guild EE run through Wheloon.

    I am enjoying all the Procs and AoE dps & CC effects from:

    - Ice Storm (+50% slow no save + dmg + Shiradi procs);
    - Cloudkill (con dmg + dmg + Shiradi procs + 20% party conceal on red/purple named);
    - Celestia procs (not sure if these AoE also proc Shiradi effects);
    - Meteoric Star Ruby (not sure if the AoE also proc Shiradi effects);
    - IPS Otto's Whistler (not AoE but still hits many mobs);
    - IPS nerve venom (not AoE but still hits many mobs);
    - IPS regular (random Shiradi procs from regular throws);

    Getting lots of aggro and occasionally caught I am liking the Arcane Barrier as it automatically kicks in when things get rough and seems to give me more time to heal... Plus occasionally I lose track of my health bar and when that pops I immediately pavlov a quickened self "heal" now... As a bonus the haste boost from Reconstructs seems to stack with haste so I feel like I am moving relatively very fast after self heals (especially when the mobs get -50% movement).

    Thanks again for posting. Very fun. I posted this feedback in the other thread as well for those that are following one but not the other...
    Last edited by Nodoze; 07-22-2014 at 07:08 AM. Reason: Tried to break out which ones for sure are procing shiradi effects and which ones may not be...

  6. #46
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    For those who also want to fill a Rogue slot with this build I thought I would give some feedback from experience thus far. Currently at level 26 self buffed (no yugo) my skills (at level 26) are:

    - Search: 80;
    - Disable Device: 77;
    - Open Lock: 75
    - Spot: 56;
    - UMD: 44 (versatility);
    - Balance: 68;
    - Tumble: 66;
    - Repair: 46 (need repair item/augment);
    - Spellcraft: 33 (may slot item/augment);
    - Concentration: 44 (may slot item/augment);

    In Wheloon on EE I was able to search and remove traps fine but my spot typically didn't find them without searching so I would risk death if I didn't know where traps are (which I don't) or didn't consult a well marked mapped (if the traps are fixed)... Thankfully in those runs guild-mates knew where the traps were (I only vaguely remembered a few) and they stopped so we (there were multiple trappers) could search/disable. I was able to get all of the traps.

    Anyway, I will try to remember to report back at what I can get at 28 for those that want trapping out of this build (though I likely will eTR quickly). Trapping & UMD are important to me so I tried to build toward them and figured I would share what info I could so far.

    EDIT at level 28: Since the above was posted I have run more EE where folk didn't know (or at least didn't warn about the traps) and with a reflex at 77+ self buffed I have been very survivable. Trap skills before I eRed from 28->20 were:

    - Search: 88; (only +19 item & no insightful Int yet)
    - Disable Device: 80 (no insightful Int yet);
    - Open Lock: 80 (only +8 dex item because I TR);
    Last edited by Nodoze; 09-12-2014 at 04:19 PM.

  7. #47
    Community Member Firewall's Avatar
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    Thank you for the feedback. I'm glad i could help with the AOE spells and always like to hear what kind of experience others have made with the build. Very nice that you have so much fun with it.

  8. #48
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    I did guild EE Storm Horns and multiple other high XP EE dungeons with this build and still like it very much. Normally all the CC and AoEs are really helpful in solo or in parties though I did have issues on the last run with a Bard & Blitzer as my Shuriken go really far damaging everything in their path and proc all sorts of AoEs which can mess up Fascination and make controlled blitzing harder...

    Lesson learned is that for future runs when there are Bard's fascinating &/or Blitzers pulling the fascinated mobs one at a time I plan to do the following:

    - Switch double Rainbow to Stay Frosty;
    - Switch out/off Colors-of-the-Queen-Past-Life-Stance;
    - Switch out Shuriken with Meteoric Ruby;
    - avoid random AoE procs from things like Spell-Touched Shuriken;
    - Switch out Celestia to a different non AoE off hand;
    - Switch out IPS to Archer's Focus Stance;
    - Any other ideas/thoughts welcome ;-).

    On a positive note once I made as many of the above changes as I could (I didn't have the best alternate weapons ready) things went much better. At the rate the Blitzer was single pulling mobs (where possible) I was often able to use Otto's Whistler & Pin to make things even easier/smoother for the Blitzer...
    Last edited by Nodoze; 07-29-2014 at 09:11 AM.

  9. #49
    Community Member Firewall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nodoze View Post
    I did guild EE Storm Horns and multiple other high XP EE dungeons with this build and still like it very much. Normally all the CC and AoEs are really helpful in solo or in parties though I did have issues on the last run with a Bard & Blitzer as my Shuriken go really far damaging everything in their path and proc all sorts of AoEs which can mess up Fascination and make controlled blitzing harder...

    Lesson learned is that for future runs when there are Bard's fascinating &/or Blitzers pulling the fascinated mobs one at a time I plan to do the following:

    - Switch double Rainbow to Stay Frosty;
    - Switch out/off Colors-of-the-Queen-Past-Life-Stance;
    - Switch out Shuriken with Meteoric Ruby;
    - avoid random AoE procs from things like Spell-Touched Shuriken;
    - Switch out Celestia to a different non AoE off hand;
    - Switch out IPS to Archer's Focus Stance;
    - Any other ideas/thoughts welcome ;-).

    On a positive note once I made as many of the above changes as I could (I didn't have the best alternate weapons ready) things went much better. At the rate the Blitzer was single pulling mobs (where possible) I was often able to use Otto's Whistler & Pin to make things even easier/smoother for the Blitzer...
    Honestly i don't think Blitzing is a party friendly way of playing. It is more suitable for soloing. In my opinion in a party they should switch to Fury instead of having the rest of the party pay attention and hold back DPS and aggro just to keep up their Blitz and have all the fun killing all the mobs. If the Blitzer cannot hold aggro himself and can also not manage to get most killing blows i certainly would not change my Epic Destiny, my gear layout, Past Life Stance, IPS and whatever just that he can play the hero. But that is just my opinion and should probably exclude some raids where it can be beneficial to have a Blitzer around. But only because of one Double Rainbow proc or one Celestia proc you will not pull aggro from someone else.

    On the other hand i'm of the opinion that whoever pulls aggro should be able to handle it either by killing the mobs with superior DPS before they kill you or by using CC or being tanky to cope with the monsters. In my opinion with this build you should be able to deal easily with the aggro you pull. Fascinate might be useful in a few quests but your Nerve Venom, Double Rainbow CC, Celestia CC, Meteoric Ruby CC, Whistler and Pin CC, (Improved) Deception CC, AOE spell CC, Blur, Displacement, Ghostly, Dodge, Eldritch Knight bonuses and whatnot should enable you to easily handle aggro if you pull it. And by the way your Nerve Venom, Pin and Whistler are superior to Fascinate in any way so maybe if the bard is a caster he should better switch to Soundburst, Shout, Greater Shout, Mass Hold, Irresistible Dance etc.

    You can still be a bit careful not to damage all fascinated mobs by targeting monsters at the edge of the spellradius if you want to but i would not change my whole gear and layout.

    I agree though that there are some quests and raids where you have to be careful not to damage friendly NPCs (e.g. Collared Slaves in some ES quests) but usually shortly switching off Double Rainbow and changing Celestia for another offhand weapon solves these problems quickly.

  10. #50
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firewall View Post
    Honestly i don't think Blitzing is a party friendly way of playing. It is more suitable for soloing. In my opinion in a party they should switch to Fury instead of having the rest of the party pay attention and hold back DPS and aggro just to keep up their Blitz and have all the fun killing all the mobs. If the Blitzer cannot hold aggro himself and can also not manage to get most killing blows i certainly would not change my Epic Destiny, my gear layout, Past Life Stance, IPS and whatever just that he can play the hero. But that is just my opinion and should probably exclude some raids where it can be beneficial to have a Blitzer around. But only because of one Double Rainbow proc or one Celestia proc you will not pull aggro from someone else.

    On the other hand i'm of the opinion that whoever pulls aggro should be able to handle it either by killing the mobs with superior DPS before they kill you or by using CC or being tanky to cope with the monsters. In my opinion with this build you should be able to deal easily with the aggro you pull. Fascinate might be useful in a few quests but your Nerve Venom, Double Rainbow CC, Celestia CC, Meteoric Ruby CC, Whistler and Pin CC, (Improved) Deception CC, AOE spell CC, Blur, Displacement, Ghostly, Dodge, Eldritch Knight bonuses and whatnot should enable you to easily handle aggro if you pull it. And by the way your Nerve Venom, Pin and Whistler are superior to Fascinate in any way so maybe if the bard is a caster he should better switch to Soundburst, Shout, Greater Shout, Mass Hold, Irresistible Dance etc.

    You can still be a bit careful not to damage all fascinated mobs by targeting monsters at the edge of the spellradius if you want to but i would not change my whole gear and layout.

    I agree though that there are some quests and raids where you have to be careful not to damage friendly NPCs (e.g. Collared Slaves in some ES quests) but usually shortly switching off Double Rainbow and changing Celestia for another offhand weapon solves these problems quickly.
    This build has been great solo or in most groups due to all the things you mentioned and though many of the effects are random there are so many that the the overall outcomes seem consistent. It pulls tons of aggro but can also handle it and I especially like it for grouping with my kids to get/keep the aggro from them but it does seem great in most situations.

    While we have often had designated blitzers in raids this was the first time I encountered the fascinate and blitz pull strategy on a guild dungeon run and wasn't prepared. Either it wasn't communicated well upfront (they may have assumed everyone had done it many times before and knew just by the characters in the group) or I must have been afk or not listening when it was discussed... With all the AoE ticks/procs and the high rate of shuriken fire I was taking the killing blow often and felt bad once I understood what they were trying to do.

    Once I stepped back to see the bigger picture I was very impressed with how the bard could basically 100% fascinate everything and make things controlled and only 1 or a few pulled at a time (in most cases) and killed by the blitzer. I followed the bard around for awhile and just watched at a reasonable distance popping a single pin/whister when I thought it may be helpful for him or the blitzer and thought it was neat to watch. I did find the blitzing pretty amazing when charged and running but it does require coordination (especially when utilizing mainly fascination). I certainly wouldn't want to play that way all the time but don't mind supporting it infrequently (especially when it lends itself well to a particular quest). I will look to put together a shuriken+off-hand to support it better next time (maybe I will just craft some simple low tier TF as I have mats to easily make some of those). Otherwise I already now know what to toggle to something else (or off) while staying in the same destiny so it isn't a big hardship/pain after the initial surprise.
    Last edited by Nodoze; 07-31-2014 at 07:04 AM.

  11. #51
    Community Member andreascott89's Avatar
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    Default Perma tensor?

    When running this build, do you normally spend points in EK to get perma tensor's? You have the levels to cast extended Tensor's for 2:12 min, which seems decent. Which do you recommend and why?

    Thanks!

  12. #52
    Community Member Firewall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andreascott89 View Post
    When running this build, do you normally spend points in EK to get perma tensor's? You have the levels to cast extended Tensor's for 2:12 min, which seems decent. Which do you recommend and why?

    Thanks!
    Of course you can also cast it as a spell but i would not recommend it. Due to so many wizard levels HP as well as BAB are relatively low on the build without Tenser's so having a permanent non-dispellable max BAB (for attack speed), +4 DEX (damage and chance to throw shuriken) and +4 CON (for hitpoints) is superior to having the Tensor's spell run out in the middle of combat and suddely leaving you with less HP and DPS in a group of angry monsters. Also keeping up Extended and Quickened Tenser's spells constantly drains your spellpoint pool which you can use for better things like Reconstruct or Displacement. 11 Levels of wizard do not leave you with as much spellpoints as a pure wizard or a sorc and your gear should be optimized first and foremost on being a shuriken thrower and only secondary on being a caster with a high spellpoint pool.

  13. #53
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firewall View Post
    Of course you can also cast it as a spell but i would not recommend it. Due to so many wizard levels HP as well as BAB are relatively low on the build without Tenser's so having a permanent non-dispellable max BAB (for attack speed), +4 DEX (damage and chance to throw shuriken) and +4 CON (for hitpoints) is superior to having the Tensor's spell run out in the middle of combat and suddely leaving you with less HP and DPS in a group of angry monsters. Also keeping up Extended and Quickened Tenser's spells constantly drains your spellpoint pool which you can use for better things like Reconstruct or Displacement. 11 Levels of wizard do not leave you with as much spellpoints as a pure wizard or a sorc and your gear should be optimized first and foremost on being a shuriken thrower and only secondary on being a caster with a high spellpoint pool.
    Agree with everything Firewall said. In addition, if I recall correctly, I only have 2 level 6 spell slots and personally I slot Reconstruct and Greater Heroism instead of Tensors (our party doesn't have another way to get GH). Spell Points are fairly tight in general and especially tight if you plan on casting lots of AoEs. I am starting most fights that have any significant number of mobs with Ice Storm (and absolutely love the no save -50% slow it gives the mobs) and also cast CloudKill when I really need AoE DPS or on end fights (even bosses get 20% miss chance).

  14. #54
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Having a blast again on my 2nd life on this build. I ended up odd in Constitution so I had some free AP and threw 1AP into ArchMage SLA I for Magic Missile (MM). I understand that MM is a primary tool for typical caster Arcane Shiradi so figured I would try it and see what I thought. The build already has quicken (and I swapped MT for Maximize) so for 1 mana I get 5 instantaneous quickened/maximzed MMs. Seems like it doesn't mess up my throwing and gives multiple extra chances for things to proc.

    I would need to do some controlled testing to know if the 5 MMs are really a net boon to the number of chances to proc things and relative DPS as compared to regular Shuriken before I could really recommend it. Unfortunately we don't have target dummies on our ship anymore so I haven't done any controlled testing on timing. None the less I am having fun with it and subjectively so far it seems to help so I thought I would share the info...

  15. #55
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Default Any thoughts as what feat would hurt the least to swap for Empower?

    One change I initially made on this build that I may have mentioned previously was that I substituted Maximize for Mental Toughness for the following goals:
    • - mainly did this because Tensor's made the Cooldown on my Reconstruct longer than I would like & I wanted a viable backup; and
    • - I wanted to try the Cold/Electric Eldar's for boss fights; and
    • - I vaguely remembered reading something about Maximize helping Shiradi procs...


    In my initial testing the Maximize didn't help with any Eldar's as the Tensor's extends their cooldowns outside a viable range but it did really help boost the Repair Critical and it may have indeed been making my Shiradi & QueenEPL procs better than what other throwers are seeing...

    Today I was doing some research to help with requests in the 'Request a Build - Get a Build' thread and think I again came across the original post where I had heard about Max/Empower helping Shiradi procs...
    Quote Originally Posted by thesnoman View Post
    ... Max/Empower are for the Shiradi Procs - makes a Boom! proc into a BIG BADABOOM!!! proc.

    Basically you run with Max/Emp turned on and then, in your bar, turn Max/Emp ALWAYS OFF on the missile spam spells (MM, CM, FM, SR) The spells cost the measly SP amount that they normally do, but the Procs tick off the maximize and empower. Plus, Max/Emp always on for DBFB, (for clearing rooms - provided they don't evade), for Ice Storm, (again - procs tick off the Max/Emp), and for Eldars Surge and Niacs Biting Cold (soloing TOR Black Dragon). ...
    If this is still working maybe I should also substitute in Empower for some other feat as well.

    Any thoughts as what feat would hurt the least to swap for Empower after already swapping Mental Toughness for Maximize?

  16. #56
    Community Member Firewall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nodoze View Post
    One change I initially made on this build that I may have mentioned previously was that I substituted Maximize for Mental Toughness for the following goals:
    • - mainly did this because Tensor's made the Cooldown on my Reconstruct longer than I would like & I wanted a viable backup; and
    • - I wanted to try the Cold/Electric Eldar's for boss fights; and
    • - I vaguely remembered reading something about Maximize helping Shiradi procs...

    (...)
    I don't know where you saw Maximize in my build in the OP in the first place. The build has always had Mental Toughness as level 17 wizard bonus feat and you can see that the initial post was last edited in may so it has always been there. In the Customization part i even recommend taking Improved Mental Toughness and epic mental toughness for people who want more spellpoints (and better crits). The build is not really meant to cast offensive spells because it lacks the spellpower and spellpoints (and the reasonable cooldowns in Tenser's) to be effective at this. That's what shiradi casters are for. Maximize increases the spellpower a bit but it also increases the cost of spells to dramatic amounts that this build cannot afford or mitigate to a reasonable amount in my opinion. Also your Reconstruct spell does not get additional punch from those feats.

    Today I was doing some research to help with requests in the 'Request a Build - Get a Build' thread and think I again came across the original post where I had heard about Max/Empower helping Shiradi procs.
    Yes Maximize and Empower boost shiradi procs. But ONLY shiradi procs that come from spells and NOT procs that occur from throwing shuriken. This has been known for a long time already. That's why it is mostly useless on this build to invest in Maximize and Empower in my opinion which is why i never recommended it in the first place. I can only advise keeping Mental Toughness since in the original build as it benefits spellpoints and also your Reconstruct criticals.

    I hope this helps.
    Last edited by Firewall; 08-19-2014 at 07:17 PM.

  17. #57
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firewall View Post
    I don't know where you saw Maximize in my build in the OP in the first place. ... Yes Maximize and Empower boost shiradi procs. But ONLY shiradi procs that come from spells and NOT procs that occur from throwing shuriken. This has been known for a long time already. ... I can only advise keeping Mental Toughness since in the original build as it benefits spellpoints and also your Reconstruct criticals.

    I hope this helps.
    Yes very helpful comments. Sorry if I was not clear as I never meant to imply that you recommended it nor that you had it in the build in the first place. I tried to be clear that I experimented with those changes for the reasons I listed above. Being new to throwers nor ever really focusing on Shiradi before (caster or otherwise) those effects of meta-magics were not known to me.

    From your understanding, would the Maximize &/or Empower help with Shiradi Procs from the following?

    - IceStorm ticks (cast with MetaMagics 'Always Off' on the spell but Active otherwise);
    - Cloudkill ticks (cast with MetaMagics 'Always Off' on the spell but Active otherwise);
    - MagicMissle SLA (cast with MetaMagics 'Always on' on the spell and Active otherwise);

    Since it seems like eternity while waiting for Reconstruct to come off cool-down with Tensors I am thinking I may keep Maximize for my backup Repair Criticals (yes is it expensive mana-wise but personally I feel it is worth it when needed). I don't mind relying on random effects/crits for many overlapping damage affects but when it comes to healing/repairs I only count on the base heals...

  18. #58
    Community Member Firewall's Avatar
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    I has been a long time since i have last heard rumors about maximize working on shiradi procs while being turned off for the spell. I have never tested it myself since it requires some effort because the shiradi procs have such a great variance in damage numbers, they proc only 7% of the time and you need to have a high spellpower and big number of procs to see a significant difference so i won't bother.

    In any case - if this worked it would be exploiting a bug since that would clearly not be as intended.

    I wonder why you need Reconstruct being off timer so often. Usually with all the defense layers and by kiting mobs you should not be hit very often at all.

  19. #59
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firewall View Post
    I has been a long time since i have last heard rumors about maximize working on shiradi procs while being turned off for the spell. I have never tested it myself since it requires some effort because the shiradi procs have such a great variance in damage numbers, they proc only 7% of the time and you need to have a high spellpower and big number of procs to see a significant difference so i won't bother.

    In any case - if this worked it would be exploiting a bug since that would clearly not be as intended.

    I wonder why you need Reconstruct being off timer so often. Usually with all the defense layers and by kiting mobs you should not be hit very often at all.
    My plan of attack in some runs is to aggro and group as many mobs up as possible and then AoE them all down and, especially in the peak of those pile-ups, I can get a lot of incoming damage... Often this can be more mobs than most people are used to as even when solo I can multibox up to 6 clients at once so with the dungeon scaling it can be like 'soloing with 5 pikers'... I am also not too proud to admit that I may not be as good a gamer as some so maybe that factors in with the multiboxing resulting in me placing more value than others on multiple heals.

    I did some testing and agree the analysis is difficult due to the variation/frequency and sadly DDO has no logging files to extract and analyze. I did some some testing on Sobrien and even with only 'Stay Frosty' on and Prism/Rainbow/x2Rainbox & 'Colors of the Queen ePL' both off I was seeing lots of extra procs due to the 'Favorable Winds' & 'Fey Power' cores... I am pretty sure I am seeing boosted damage on procs from spells like Magic Missle and Scorching Ray though not on shuriken (I was using ML2 +1 shuriken only) so it certainly is interesting.. That may explain why some of my shiradi procs/crits seemed to be so much higher than others when in regular runs...
    Last edited by Nodoze; 08-20-2014 at 03:33 AM.

  20. #60
    Community Member Caprice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nodoze View Post
    [Multiboxing & metamagics affecting Shiradi procs]
    In addition to your aggressive use of dungeon scaling you may need heals more often than most Shiradi shuriken users because my impression is that you are often prioritizing "get aggro" over "avoid damage" while you are playing with your kids.

    Maximize and Empower used to affect Shiradi procs but AFAIK that was supposed to have been changed to remove that benefit. For example see this thread. If you are seeing improvements now then that feature may have been broken again recently. I wouldn't necessarily count on it staying that way permanently, but it may also be a low priority to fix again. I'd offer to help test but I HTR'd my one Shiradi.
    Sarlona resident (PureMouse, PlushMouse, [& other little mice], Cryosite)
    Former lurker/resident of Argonessen (Shyelle, Cheyelle, Moonsparkle)

    "The first thing you need to do when considering a halfling thrower build, is learn how to bend halflings correctly so that they return." - amnota/Trelaf of Thelanis

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