- Gives Bards some appropriate protection in the form of Dodge, running speed, Reflex, Uncanny Dodge, and Slippery Mind.
- Allows pure class Bards to get Evasion. (But at too high level)
- Gives Bards a Charisma melee damage option. (But without Charisma attack, very questionable).
- Attempts to make it reasonable to fight with a single light weapon. (But COMPLETELY fails)
What's bad about Swashbuckler?
- SWF costs too many feats.
- SWF requires too much Balance skill.
- SWF's benefit is too small.
- SWF's benefit doesn't multiply with most damage sources, so it doesn't scale.
- SWF has no defensive benefit.
- SWF's benefit applies to some glancing weapons (which might prevent buffing it for regular weapons)
- Use of generic Rapiers is relatively discouraged.
- Use of non-Rapier named weapons are often encouraged.
- Use of Longsword/Scimitar not supported.
- Primary stance conflicts with wand/scroll.
- Lack of Charisma to hit.
- Too many Swashbuckler effects depend on Swashbuckler mode, even ones not tied to weapon attacks.
- Swashbuckler tree isn't good enough for TWF builds.
- En Point can turn out to weaken a natural crit roll.
- Arcane Marauder is just weak and has little reason to exist.
- Dodge as a bonus for holding a Buckler makes less sense than PPR, and is weaker because you might hit Dodge cap.
- Sonic damage isn't much in a "Swashbuckler" style, although it matches with Bard spells.
- Throwing enhancements without the possibility of Monk levels are hopeless.
- Running speed stacks with Barb (creating a risk of Bard/Bard multiclass being too fast).
- Precision feat is not a prereq for Cleave and Overwhelming Critical. (So enhancements depending on Precision are weaker)
Suggested plan to revamp Swashbuckler tree:Initially give up on a Single Weapon focus; that's too ambitious and too big a change from how melee already works.
Start with the assumption that the character is a TWF melee build. Reserve 3 icons on the left for Single-Weapon specific things, and design it to be a pretty good combat tree even without using them. Some enhancements would apply only to mainhand, meaning they give SWF a bigger boost than TWF. After that, add 3 icons that allow SWF to have about half the offense of TWF and half the defense of Monk splash.
Change SWF from 3 feats for damage to one feat for damage, attack speed, and AC.
I'd ideally like to see a cooldown timer in-line with Finger of Death. A pure 20 single-sword bard should be coupe-de-grâcing helpless enemies as quickly as a pure 20 necromancer is slaying them with his main spell.
The Precision stance idea was something I'm unsure of mechanistically,... I don't know if having the Swashbuckler stance active will de-active other stances like Precision. I also really like the idea of Precision as a prerequisite to landing the killing blow, but if that negates the Swashbuckler stance within it's signature Prestige tree, that's problematic.
The game already has a Helpless mechanic, as well, so implementing this as a Melee critical hit would be a piece of cake!
I'd love to see the enhancement capstone for pure 20 Bards add Fascinate to the list of Helpless effects, to further improve pure classing.
Getting Evasion is pretty sweet, but it's something splashing two levels will get just as easily. Coupe De Grâce killing a fascinated monster would give Bards some much needed lift.
In other words, using that "Style" line, tier 2 is worse than tier 1, and even taking both of them you are better off with a different style option all together. Until they add a rune arm which is huge sonic power with an effect thats useful even at low charge/class levels (since a mostly bard character will generally lack many of the artificer enhancements and progressions to runearms), its simply a flavor option and not a mechanically useful option. Id like to see it be both. Which is why Ive suggested (in several places) that bsword/daxe be added to stance permissions (not the crit profile mods, just stance use), and that the d6 be raised to d10. Taken together, that starts to compare with the +1-5/7% choice.
Hopefully thats a clearer way of stating things.
You see, back in time, TWF had specific attacks that procced the off-hand attack (IIRC, the first and fourth, like THF glancing blows. ITWF and GTWF gave extra attacks on the chain), but the physics engine did check for positioning at every proc twice. With tempest, that gave even more extra attacks on top of that, it had to check physical positioning of the monster two or three times per swing.
The system we have now check positioning once, and then roll the off-hand and doublestrike chances on a percent value. If they proc, the to-hit roll and damage are dealt without checking positioning again. This allegedly cut off a lot of load from the positioning system compared to before (I don't know, I haven't seen the code).
So, speed was not the problem. It was the game asking the servers "is any mob in melee range for this attack" three times more than today.
Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist (12/14) [<o>]
Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma
I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Kensai, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.
I had two previous comments about how the Swashbuckler tree strangely discourages Rapiers, and here's another:
Did you notice that tier 5 Exploit Weaknesses and tier 2 En Point favor Light Pick over other weapons? (Remember that Bards have a spell for Pick proficiency)
Which would you prefer: a 75% chance for +1x damage, or a 70% chance for +2x damage? And each time he hits, a guy with a Rapier (or other allowed weapon) has a 65% chance of +1 Exploit Weakness stack (worth +2x), while someone with a Pick has a 75% chance of +1 stack (worth +3x).
Suggested adjustment: Change those things to not involve critical hits. En Point would give a 60% chance the attack does 2x damage, while Exploit Weakness gives each attack a 5% chance for 2x to 3x damage, which accumulates until it triggers.
PS. Blow By Blow favors Pick as well.
Last edited by Scrabbler; 05-02-2014 at 01:24 AM.
Then again, we already have monk unarmed attack speed, acrobat staff attack speed, haste/alacrity, haste boost, etc., and they're not bringing the servers down. Would a moderate attack speed boost for a few SWF users really have an impact? I would guess no.
What would happen to all this if Epic Greensteels were say 5w someday?
So the GSWF bonus goes up by +5 damage compared to an existing thunder alloy weapon (15 total provided by GSWF)... that's still meaningless compared to all the other damage TWF puts out with a higher swing rate.
Since twf = 4(1d6)+7 plus strength times .80 bonuses??
I would question the need for a whole line here?
Why just one feat instead of 3?
Single Weapon Fighting
Your bonus for Improved Single Weapon Fighting increases to +12 sides.
Would that make things closer?
After all, bards cannot afford feats as well?
Or maybe it should be +12, +24, + 36??
Last edited by Silverleafeon; 05-02-2014 at 01:43 AM.
Most bizarrely of all, that Wizard who trained GSWF to improve spell damage has also accidentally learned how to Vorpalize monsters simply by slipping one item back into his pocket... wacky. (Normally it takes a lot of Rogue, Fighter, or Monk levels to learn a Vorpal ability)
thanks to put the revision of the tree and the feat line.
But what a letdown the featline is.
SHW are all about speed,staying flexible and so being able to dodge/parry a lot, finding the weak spots and wearing the opponent down when you are opposed to against a 2-hander. You don't see feel this at all in these feats.
also you choose to give it only some extra damage but so that it is no match for the other styles (some math shows us that this is even true when you use those weapons without feats....)
also this style has more potential when it complements something else. so I would even suggest to not it a 3 part chain but pour it in 1 feat with a scaling factor and leave room open for other new feats that build on this in different direction .Something for the S&B, something for the combination of SWF and Precision (Precision is very much in need of something to build anyway), and maybe one that adds some interesting debuffs. Making it more interesting for a lot of paths.
As for the improved tree, like it a lot more already.
Things I still don't like here are:
-En Pointe: Lose the SP cost (and even than I wouldn't take it but others might maybe)
- stats to Dam but not to hit ? especially for CHA and INT I would expect this
-the second tier of the swashbuckling style: it all looks promising in the first part and then you break it down with a 1 sec stun/knockdown/low gain on spellpower/ no interesting gain in a runearm because you need heavy artificier to make that one interesting anyway + on top of that a save in combination with spellpoint cost. --> it all needs something that makes it more interesting. more spellpowe or some extra crit chances. the runearm needs by a free prof in tier 1 of Swashbuckling and gets now a way to scale to something like half of the levels.
As for the 1sec +spellcost + save, you need to lose the spallcost or the save or prolong the duration. but something needs to happen there.
-Thread the needle : good on itself but still Precision not being part of some strong feat combinations still doesn't feel right to make people push to this as a prereq.
Finally something for the tree I can't get out of my mind. the pants down clicky: reducing the attack/move speed a lot as also the to hit and AC for a certain period (with cooldown and a save linked to perform)
I know that this reply is just a simplified stand of what many said before, still think it is important we voice it.
I actually wouldn't mind seeing some effect on a SWF style as part of the base Precision feat, without requiring additional SWF feats. In a similar fashion to the way that power attack doubles its value when used with a two-handed weapon.
Nothing excessive. Perhaps just an additional 10%-15% fortitude bypass.
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