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  1. #121
    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
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    Default do this

    Single Weapon Fighting
    While Single-Weapon Fighting, you gain +4 to all saves and +5% dodge and dodge cap, additionally any time you are attacked in melee combat you gain 25% double strike for 1 second

    Single Weapon Fighting: Requires fighting with a single one-handed melee weapon, and wielding only an orb, runearm, or nothing in your offhand.



    Improved Single Weapon Fighting
    Your bonus for Single Weapon Fighting increases to +6 to all saves and +10% dodge and dodge cap, additionally any time you are attacked in melee combat you gain 50% double strike for 1 second


    Greater Single Weapon Fighting
    Your bonus for Single Weapon Fighting increases to +8 to all saves and +15% dodge and dodge cap, additionally any time you are attacked in melee combat you gain 75% double strike for 1 second

  2. #122
    Community Member OverlordOfRats's Avatar
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    Default A buckler is a shield

    5 AP, class level 3: Swashbuckling: Defensive Stance: You gain 1% Doublestrike and Doubleshot as well as +1 to the Enhancement Bonus of the weapon in your main hand. Swashbuckling requires wielding a Finesseable or Thrown weapon in your main hand, wielding a Buckler or nothing in your off hand, and wearing Light Armor or no armor.

    Single Weapon Fighting
    While Single-Weapon Fighting, your weapon die gains an additional +2 sides.

    Single Weapon Fighting: Requires fighting with a single one-handed melee weapon, and wielding only an orb, runearm, or nothing in your offhand.



    Seems to me there is a disconnect here.

    You can Swashbuckle with a buckler but then you lose the SWF bonus if you do.

  3. #123
    The Hatchery dejafu's Avatar
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    Nice improvements to the Swashbuckler tree - it still seems on the weak side overall, but is at least playable. Honestly, the tree now feels like a more fun (and better synergy) alternative to Warchanter for those who pick Spellsinger as their main tree. Which is nice, but still feels lacking.

    The Single Weapon Fighting feats... these are awful. The damage increase doesn't come close to compensating for giving up a slot, much less competing with TWF or THF. If you want to make it worthwhile, add something like 5-10% doublestrike and 2% dodge per feat taken. We give up a lot to use this style, we need to gain a lot to even consider it!
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  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by geoffhanna View Post
    I do not believe the Single Weapon Fighting feats (three feats to get a total of +3 to damage) are enough to make the fighting style competitive.

    If SWF is not competitive then the Swashbuckler will not be as popular as it should be.

    You need more. How about a Dodge bonus? How about built-in Precision? Something. More.

    You need to make SWF all by itself good enough that someone who is not a Swashbuckler might still want it, instead of TWF or THF. You need SWF Rogues and SWF Fighters and even the odd SWF Barbarian.

    Once you have achieved that, once you have made SWF something that is by itself worthwhile and part of the balanced melee style discussion, only then you will have truly given Swashbuckler a reason to exist, because the Swashbuckler will be the best SWF build of all.
    +1

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  5. #125
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CeltEireson View Post
    Hmmm wont let me edit my previous posts so I'll just tack this on here.

    With regards to how poor the swf feats are - compare them to the likes of weapon focus or weapon specialisation feats. Weapon specialisation gives you a whopping +2 to damage that doesn't scale with level or weapons compared to a possible additional 4d6 for a thunderforged weapon.

    Not saying that the swf aren't a lil underpowered compared to the thf feats of twf feats, but there are a lot of feats out there that either have always been very weak or have been devalued by the introduction of new feats or enhancements that are far more powerful. Maybe something that needs addressed when looking at balance.
    The SWF feats are also better than Skill Focus: Swim.
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  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by OverlordOfRats View Post
    (snip)
    Seems to me there is a disconnect here.

    You can Swashbuckle with a buckler but then you lose the SWF bonus if you do.
    That's addressed on the tier 3 enhancement.

    Tier Three

    Swashbuckling Style (Multiselector)
    Skirmisher: Passive: While Swashbuckling with a Buckler in your off hand, you gain 7% Dodge, and you may use a Buckler and still benefit from the Single Weapon Fighting line of feats.

    So yeah, SWF line is useless with a buckler until you can take the Skirmisher selector.
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  7. #127
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    A few points:

    First, I find it strange that this tree does not give any sonic spellpower or dexterity to to-hit.

    Secondly, En Pointe shouldn't have a critical multiplier penalty. After all, most of the weapons that a swashbuckler will use have an x2 critical multiplier!

    Third, It's silly that Low Blow's stun effect only lasts *1* second! If it doesn't last at least 3 seconds, there is no point in the effect having a DC.

    Fourth, please allow SWF to work with all shields except for tower shields. Is there a reason for a shield-user to not have a good offensive option?

    Now, a question: Should I assume that, since SWF doesn't work with handwraps, it won't work with druid animal form, either?

  8. #128
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    What I don't get is why they went the "extra dice sides" route instead of a more powerful and, I would argue, more thematically correct doublestrike bonus.

    Current options for increasing damage:

    1) X[W] increases.
    2) +X Damage modifier.
    3) +to Doublestrike
    4) Crit Range Increase
    5) Crit Modifier Increase
    6) X% Damage modifier

    And now they introduce something entirely new? What the heck? Why did they need ANOTHER way to affect damage? It's similar to die stepping, but not exactly. In reality, it's basically an average of +1/+2/+3 damage for the three tiers. Why not just do to that and let everyone see exactly how disappointing it is. I guess when combined with X[W] boosts from other sources it can be magnified, but it's never going to be as good as 2WF or 2HF. It's terrible.
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  9. #129
    Developer Vargouille's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardtrick View Post
    I mean, I know we can get sarcastic sometimes, mostly because we're frustrated. (Although you get sarcastic right back, so it's probably fair.) And sometimes it seems like we keep repeating things. But we really don't know what kind of numbers you look at or simulations you run or testing you do.
    I want to clear this up; I was not trying to be in any way sarcastic in thanking you guys for many posts about the Single Weapon Fighting Feats. I see how that could have been interpreted that way, but that is in fact stuff we're interested in.

    Do you want us to try to put together numbers to show how this stacks up against TWF/THF, or are you already so far beyond our capabilities for that that there's no point? Are you just trying to see how we feel about a tree and feats that you've already confirmed are correctly balanced, or do you want us to go further?
    Nearly all of the feedback so far is useful. Sometimes we've still got ideas we're considering that we don't always run right out to you guys because we want to see the response to a simpler concept and also to not limit the discussion. There's been (at the least) suggestions relating to attack speed, doublestrike, critical profile, seeker bonuses, dodge, PRR, and other options for SWF. It's important to us to see what actually gets said by you guys (even if it's things we've thought of before), and to also see how strong and differing your collective thoughts and opinions are.

    (We do in fact pay attention to who is posting, so you aren't pulling a fast one by posting the same ideas repeatedly. We read in enough detail to be able to say, "Oh, that's just Steelstar posting about making awesome raids again.")

  10. #130
    Community Member OverlordOfRats's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HatsuharuZ View Post
    /snip
    Fourth, please allow SWF to work with all shields except for tower shields. Is there a reason for a shield-user to not have a good offensive option?
    /snip
    The answer to that question is Paladins

  11. #131
    Community Member bbqzor's Avatar
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    Lots to review.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We've tried to balance these feats against THF and TWF. We feel these will scale well into higher levels, as these bonuses from Single Weapon Fighting are multiplied by higher +(W) weapons. Our current plan allows these feats to work alongside Two-Handed Fighting if you are using a Bastard Sword or Dwarven Axe.
    Okay, although if youre allowing someone to sink SIX feats into something, one would expect a rather excessive cumulative bonus. The default feat allowance is only 7 in heroic, meaning someone could go their whole career virtually doing nothing but buying these. It would be worth ensuring such a path is not a "trap"... which right now it completely is. I rather like the idea of just having them overlap rather than forcing people to choose, it allows something like a fighter to pick and choose a bit. But in total there should be more aggregate benefit for having the whole package.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Due to both balance and technical concerns, these feats don't function with weapons that have multiple dice (as part of the base die, such as the 2d4 dagger "Agony, the Knife in the Dark"). Regular one-handed weapons and nearly all named one-handed items only have one die, but there are a few named items that won't function with Single Weapon Fighting.
    Yea, I get it, you dont want it adding +4 avg dmg instead of +2 or something, okay fine. But its completely lame because 1) You cant use some weapons which exist now, and 2) It implies future weapon design will not follow the multi-die W path, instead going for high W single die codes. Both of those are completely uninteresting to me and things which make me sad about the games future. I realize there is a balance concern here, but I suggest you go with a more "so what" approach. Two Handed Power Attack gets more benefit... why cant single weapon fighting on a multi die weapon get more benefit? Its completely parallel, and means that there will be some weapon choice difference between a 2wf and a 1wf and thats completely fine in my book. I know saying "dont worry about balance" is probably anathema to you, but seriously, a few pts of dmg isnt a concern. Fury working on all 4 arrows of a manyshot instead of 1, is a concern. Some guy using a 1hd with nothing else hitting for 5 more is just a player trying to synergize their character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Internally, we're discussing longer-range possibilities to address some issues with shield builds and thrown builds, which aren't covered by Single Weapon Fighting (except for Swashbuckler's exception where they can use bucklers with SWF).
    Okay. I will state for the record, the game does NOT need more feats at this volume. It just doesnt. Builds already struggle to fit the "required" stuff in, because right now the game pushes you very hard towards hitting specific criteria (ie, taking one spell focus feat isnt too useful, frequently you may need to take 2-3, along with a lot of other stuff, to land anything... taking one 2wf feat isnt useful, you really have to take all 3 to be functional, etc). Adding more and more feat chains, some of which will be *in addition* to existing chains (like if you add another shield style chain, and it works with 2hd for bswords and daxes, and it works with the existing shield line) it just gets to be too many required feats. I mean that situation alone basically locks Paladins out from ever utilizing their defensive stance (which still egregiously requires a shield, bleh) in the same manner as a fighter. I realize you guys dont play on live like we do but, whens the last time anyone saw a s/b paladin do as well or better than a similarly build/geared fighter? They already cant keep up with the feats, this isnt going to help. If you want to adjust or tweak feats fine, or add one or two new stand alones fine, but adding more chains is compounding an existing problem: we often dont have enough feat currency to go around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Single Weapon Fighting
    While Single-Weapon Fighting, your weapon die gains an additional +2 sides.
    Single Weapon Fighting: Requires fighting with a single one-handed melee weapon, and wielding only an orb, runearm, or nothing in your offhand.
    For instance, a 1d8 weapon instead deals 1d10 damage. This only functions for weapons with a single base weapon die (Example: This wouldn't function for weapons that do 2d4 base damage.)
    Feat Requirement: 2 ranks of Balance

    Improved Single Weapon Fighting
    Your bonus for Single Weapon Fighting increases to +4 sides.
    For instance, a 1d8 weapon instead deals 1d12 damage. This only functions for weapons with a single base weapon die (aka: This wouldn't function for weapons that do 2d4 base damage.)
    Feat Requirement: 4 ranks of Balance, Base Attack Bonus +6

    Greater Single Weapon Fighting
    Your bonus for Improved Single Weapon Fighting increases to +6 sides.
    For instance, a 1d8 weapon instead deals 1d14 damage. This only functions for weapons with a single base weapon die (aka: This wouldn't function for weapons that do 2d4 base damage.)
    Feat Requirement: 7 ranks of Balance, Base Attack Bonus +11
    Okay, Im sorry, but these are terrible. Each feat is basically +1 dmg per hit at heroic, up to a max of perhaps +4-5 dmg per hit in Epic (with a thunderholm weapon). Power attack with a 2hd weapon (perhaps the closest thing you could relate here) is +10 dmg for one feat. Handwraps with 2wf (another close thing, since its like a single 1hd weapon with empty offhand) gets 80% more hits. If +15 dmg from these is a gain of 80% to your dps, it means your hit without them was only ~19 dmg... and if youre hitting for only 19 dmg at the point you can equip thunderholm gear you have failed. I get what you are trying to do here, but use some math. This isn't even remotely adequate, and does zero to address losing a whole item slot via the offhand. Seriously what else can I say, do more math. Two handed offers 50% str, and double for power attack, and glances. Two Weapon offers 80% more swing speed. One Weapon offers... +15 dmg? Facepalm... what else is there to say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Some of the more prominent changes to the tree include allowing Single-Weapon Fighting with a Buckler, putting more into the first core ability, adding in CHA / DEX / INT to-damage enhancements (while Single Weapon Fighting), and adding max-dex bonus to armor and reflex saving throws to both core abilities and Tier 5. Some abilities have also been renamed or had tentative numbers put in for various costs or cooldowns. All names and numbers still subject to further feedback, revision, and balancing.
    Sounds good, taking a look.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Core Abilities
    • 1 AP, class level 1: Confidence: Passive: +1% Dodge, +1 Reflex Save, and +1 to the Max Dex Bonus of your Armor per Swashbuckler Core Ability you have.
    • 5 AP, class level 3: Swashbuckling: Defensive Stance: You gain 1% Doublestrike and Doubleshot as well as +1 to the Enhancement Bonus of the weapon in your main hand. Swashbuckling requires wielding a Finesseable or Thrown weapon in your main hand, wielding a Buckler or nothing in your off hand, and wearing Light Armor or no armor. (Druids cannot Swashbuckle while in animal forms.)
      • Passive: While Swashbuckling, the following weapons receive Competence bonuses to their critical profiles:
        Dagger, Shortsword, Throwing Dagger: +1 Critical Threat Range, +1 Critical Damage Multiplier
        Light Mace, Sickle, Dart, Shuriken, Throwing Axe, Throwing Hammer: +2 Critical Threat Range, +1 Critical Damage Multiplier
        Kukri, Rapier: +1 Critical Damage Multiplier
        Handaxe: +2 Critical Threat Range
        Light Pick: +1 Critical Threat Range
    • 10 AP, class level 6: Uncanny Dodge: You gain the Uncanny Dodge feat. Passive: Swashbuckling grants an additional 1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, and +1 Attack Damage.
    • 20 AP, class level 12: Panache: While Swashbuckling, you have an additional 1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, +1 Attack Damage, +1 Reflex Saving Throw, and the weapon in your main hand gains an additional +1 to its Enhancement bonus.
    • 30 AP, class level 18: Roll with the Punches: While Swashbuckling, you gain +5 Insight Bonus to Character Dodge Cap, the Slippery Mind feat, +1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, and +1 Attack Damage.
    • 41 AP, class level 20: Evasive Maneuvers: +2 CHA, +2 DEX.While Swashbuckling, you gain the Evasion feat, +1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, +1 Attack Damage, and the weapon in your main hand gains an additional +1 to its Enhancement bonus.
    Level 1: Perfect. I had considered posting that as well, very happy with that adjustment.
    Level 3: Again perfect. Allowing bucklers was a good decision, as again giving up an item slot fully is just not practical at this point.
    Level 6: Question is +1 Attack Damage mean +1 to each? (I ask because it seems you would have either typed Attack/Damage, or re-listed it like +1 Attack, +1 Damage as you did with all the other bonuses... which makes me think it might be a typo). If so, good, I think it makes a lot more sense to have it apply to both instead of just one.
    Level 12: Lost 1% dodge here, not sure what the motivation for that was. It did gain +1 atk, perhaps that was a trade?
    Level 18: Again nice, added the +1 atk in.
    Level 20: Well, again +1 atk. I still feel Evasion at this point is the wrong decision, it should be earlier (at 12). As that post has already been made, will simply state as such again here, although with the rest of the changes to the tree there is a bit less pressure on this point.

    Overall, the adjustments to the Core were good. Many of the issues were solved, the progression was made a bit more consistent, and it seems to work better with the concept. The capstone is still on the weak side, as are most (all?) capstones at this point in the game. I think the resistance to adjusting that highlights that you as devs feel differently than we as players, and are content to continue with the rather strong pro-multiclass paradigm mechanically. So be it, bards are no worse off than anyone else in this regard, the capstone is at least appealing enough to avoid punishing pure bards at epic, and that is an important distinction. Once into epics, its a meaningful ability, and frankly thats the more important issue at this point in the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Tier One
    1. On Your Toes: +1/2/3 Dodge
    2. Blow By Blow (multiselector)
      1. Melee or Thrown Attack: Make an attack with +(1/2/3) critical threat range that deals (+1/+2/+3)d6 extra Sonic damage, and reduces your threat with nearby enemies by (100/200/300). Sonic damage scales with Spell Power.
    3. Insults (multiselector)
      1. Scathing Words: Activate to reduce the Fortitude saves of nearby enemies by 3. (Costs 16/12/8 Spell Points, 20/15/10 Second Cooldown)
      2. Cutting Jibes: Activate to reduce the Will saves of nearby enemies by 3. (Costs 16/12/8 Spell Points, 20/15/10 Second Cooldown)
      3. Appalling Diatribe: Activate to reduce the Reflex saves of nearby enemies by 3. (Costs 16/12/8 Spell Points, 20/15/10 Second Cooldown)
    4. Tavern Shanties: +1/2/3 Bard Songs.
    5. Limber Up: +(1/2/3) to Balance, Jump, Swim, Haggle, and Tumble. 3rd Rank: When you Tumble, you gain +3 to saves against traps for 6 seconds. 12 second cooldown.
    One your toes: It is what it is, same as before.
    Blow by blow: About as expected, and seemingly worth taking. Whats the cooldown on this... 6s?
    Insults: Total failure, all cautionary feedback seemingly ignored. Bards have spells which are more efficient, and everyone has epic abilities which are more efficient. Not everything in a tree should be a "must have" (theres simply not enough points to sustain that approach mechanically) but in the same way, nothing should be a "never take". Thats where this is right now. It needs to be less mana and faster cooldown, and/or less AP (like a 2 pt single tier ability at the best values).
    Tavern shanties: Again, it is what it is, no change.
    Limber Up: Still a failure in that with previous analysis it was shown that the ref save really should apply to everything not just traps, due to the ref save math on a pure bard, the cooldown, and frankly the class thematics. As it stands, theres no reason to take it for the skills (hagglebot aside), and no reason to take it for the 3rd rank. I guess grats hagglebots on 3 more haggle.

    In total, the stuff that was okay stayed okay, the stuff that needed fixing still needs fixing. Tier 1 didnt really see any improvement at all, and perhaps in a way thats good since it means there wont be a lot of pressure to spend 10s of AP at the first tier.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Tier Two
    1. En Pointe: Melee Attack: Make two attacks with +4/8/12 critical threat range, but -1 Critical Multiplier. Costs 10 Spell Points to activate.
    2. Deflect Arrows: You gain the benefits of the Deflect Arrows feat, knocking aside one incoming projectile that would have struck you every 6/4/2 seconds. (Antireq Tempest Deflect Arrows)
    3. Fast Movement: You gain +1% Bardic Music bonus to movement for every Bard level you possess.
    4. Sword Dance: While Swashbuckling, when enemies miss you in combat, you deal 1d10/1d12/1d20 Sonic Damage. Scales with Spell Power.
    5. Action Boost Multiselector
      1. Action Boost: Doublestrike: You gain +10/20/30% Action Boost bonus to Doublestrike for 20 seconds. Usable 5 times per rest.
      2. Action Boost: Doubleshot: You gain +10/20/30% Action Boost bonus to Doubleshot for 20 seconds. Usable 5 times per rest.
    En Point: Okay three things. First, this entire ability is riding on the animation time it uses. Moving to two attacks was a great move, but if the animation is slow(er) than just basic attacking, youre giving up a lot of dps just activating it. Last I checked the animation speed with a 1hd was about 102 attacks/minute (at 28 with blinding speed), so this animation has to complete in about 2 seconds or less (including activation time, the animation, gcd, etc... 2s or less lost out of an autoattack animation chain) to be worth hitting. (Or if my numbers are wrong, Im going to assume you as devs have the right ones and can do the same calculation). Second, assuming the speed passes, 10 mana is a bit high. It really pushes you to have a lot of crit-based things to be worth it... not bad per se but definitely at the high end. And lastly, whats the cooldown, 10s? Thats a critical thing to know, given the above. Thanks.
    Deflect arrows: Again, same as before, if its working fantastic.
    Fast Movement: Okay, moving this to here was an interesting move. The value starts a bit low, but is obtainable at a very low level now so thats fine, and it ends exactly where it should. Great choice overall.
    Sword dance: Eh... good at level I guess. By epic, probably not useful. 1d20 even with 400 spellpower (which Im pretty sure you cant achieve that in sonic but lets assume) its only landing for ~50 damage. And assuming youre trying to fully utilize this class you probably have 30% dodge and blur or displacement (from being a bard). So this things probably only firing 1/3 to 1/2 the time, even at 50 a pop, its pointless at epic. But before you get any of that, I suppose a 1d20 guard might help in waterworks. Still, Id rather see abilities which grow with the character, and this one doesnt. Maybe you could change it to d6/d8/d10 but you get 1 die for every core ability you purchased? So when you first get it, it caps at 2d10, but at level 20 it could be 6d10?
    Action boost: Same as before, still solid.

    Tier 2 stayed about the same. En Pointe has potential, if the animation speed and cooldown fit the high costs, and getting fast movement early is very nice. The rest is about the same, but was already good. Overall good adjustments Id say, with the hope that sword dance is modified into something useful beyond level 6. Loss of Aqua Vitae is essentially unnoticed, although I think it would have been neat to see what that could turn into. Perhaps in a future Artificer PRE, where it might make more sense anyhow =)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Tier Three
    1. Elegant Footwork: When enemies miss you while Swashbuckling, they have a chance to be knocked down with no save. Cooldown: 12 seconds.
    2. Swashbuckling Style (Multiselector)
      1. Dashing Scoundrel: Passive: While Swashbuckling with nothing in your off hand, you gain +1 Attack Damage per 5 Character levels and 7% Doublestrike/Doubleshot.
      2. Skirmisher: Passive: While Swashbuckling with a Buckler in your off hand, you gain 7% Dodge, and you may use a Buckler and still benefit from the Single Weapon Fighting line of feats.
      3. Arcane Marauder: Passive: You can now Swashbuckle with an Orb in your off hand. (Does not count as a Buckler for Buckler-specific abilities). Requires Magical Training (or the Spellsinger enhancement equivalent).
      4. Cannoneer: (Requires Runearm Proficiency feat): Passive: You can now Swashbuckle with a Rune Arm in your off hand. (Does not count as a Buckler for Buckler-specific abilities).
    3. Resonant Arms: While Swashbuckling, the Finesseable or Thrown weapon in your main hand deals an additional 2d6/4d6/6d6 Sonic Damage on critical hits.
    4. Different Tack (Multiselector, Requires Single Weapon Fighting feat)
      1. Swift Strikes: You get Dexterity to Damage with weapon attacks while Single Weapon Fighting.
      2. Two Steps Ahead: You get Intelligence to Damage with weapon attacks Single Weapon Fighting.
      3. Smooth Flourishes: You get Charisma to Damage with weapon attacks Single Weapon Fighting.
    5. CHA/DEX
    Elegant Footwork: This is an improvement and may actually be a cool ability. All depends on what that "chance" actually is. At least 10% please... weve had 5% or less trip effects before and theyre always completely useless.
    Swashbuckling Style: Eh, same comments as before. Cannoneer should allow bsword/daxe in the mainhand (perhaps with no critical modifiers from the stance, but at least enable the stance with them).... otherwise its non-optimal to ever make a melee artificer/swashbuckler since their abilities are at odds with one another (swashbuckler cant use glance weapons, the point of melee runearm is added dmg fx on glances).
    Resonant arms: The damage no longer scales with sonic spellpower? Bleh, I hope thats a typo. If you want to scale it at 50% spellpower like some other things in game fine, but it needs that scaling to stay relevant.
    Different Track: Okay, this I can actually go with. Requiring one feat to open the option is fair, and its very fitting for the class and to the pnp background. The way its worded suggests you gain it in addition to str, but Im assuming its in place of like all the other abilities? May want to clean the wording up to be explicit about that.
    Cha/dex: Yep.

    Some ups and downs here. Generally some improvements, the big one being allowing dex/int/cha as damage options. But losing spellpower on resonant arms takes the wind out of the sails there, and the style options are still a bit too limiting for my tastes. But given what could have been, I guess this was a move in the right direction. Even the trip guard might be playable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Tier Four
    1. On the Mark: Passive +1/2/3 to attack rolls to confirm critical hits and damage on critical hits (before weapon multipliers)
    2. Swashbuckling Style II (Multiselector)
      1. Slap in the Face: While Swashbuckling and wielding nothing in your off hand, activate to deal 1 Bludgeon damage. Damaged enemies can't cast spells for 3/6/9 seconds and are stunned for one second (Perform + d20 saves for the Stun). 18 second cooldown. Costs 10 Spell Points.
      2. Low Blow: While Swashbuckling and wielding a Buckler in your off hand, activate to perform a shield bash with +2 Critical Threat Range and Multiplier. On hit, knock down affected enemy for one second (Perform + d20 saves for the Knockdown). Costs 10 Spell Points.
      3. Loud & Clear:Passive: While Swashbuckling with an Orb in your off hand, +20 Sonic Spell Power.
      4. Tune Arm/Music Box: Passive: While Swashbuckling with a Rune Arm in your off hand, your Rune Arm Weapon Imbue deals an additional 1d6 Sonic damage.
    3. Battering Barrage: (2 AP, 2 ranks) While Swashbuckling, critical hits inflict Destruction/Improved Destruction.
    4. Wind at my Back: +1 to the Enhancement Bonus of your equipped Throwing Weapons, plus an additional +1 for every five Bard levels.
    5. CHA/DEX
    Not going to list as its just cut/paste from last version. Stances are terrible, the rest of its average. The 3/6/9 listing in "slap in the face" is still there despite it being single tier. The effects of all style choices are lacking as before. The rune arm imbue is the exact kind of thing which should work with bswords/daxes. One second duration effects are not worth 10 sp, and AP to buy, especially when theres a save allowed. Seemingly feedback ignored or discounted.

    This tier could use some help. Generally T4 is seen as one with expensive choices (20 in tree to open it) but appealing because its the top stuff you can get without locking yourself into a single T5. This tier has none of that, except perhaps Battering Barrage given the crit driven nature of the tree, and the fact it helps the whole party out. On the mark isnt bad, but its the same thing, in the same place in the tree, as elsewhere. Those stances really need work to make this level shine. Getting to 30 pts for tier 5 likely means buying more at lower levels. Sigh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Tier Five
    1. Thread the Needle: While Swashbuckling, +5 Attack Damage while the Precision feat is active.
    2. Second Skin: While Swashbuckling, +3/6/12 to your Reflex Saves and +2/4/6 to the Max Dex Bonus of your Armor.
    3. Exploit Weaknesses:While Swashbuckling, every time you damage an enemy but do not critically hit, you gain a stacking +1 Insight Bonus to Critical Threat Range until you successfully crit.
    Thread the needle: Did this pick up +5 atk too? Wow nice.
    Second skin: Wow okay, heres a solution to some of those ref and armor dex problems. Sure, it eats 3AP, but its worth every one. Great addition... it does almost nothing "new" from a dev standpoint, but is a standout ability for players to enable their characters to do all the stuff you already wanted us to do here. Win all around.
    Exploit Weakness: I still think this should have a small secondary component as per my original post, but the way the tree is shaping up that is not as necessary as it was. That said, resonant arms being reduced also hurts it... so perhaps reinstating the sonic spellpower to that would suffice here as well.

    Tier 5 is now an actual T5, worth giving up another trees abilities for. If resonant arms is giving spell power again, that makes exploit weakness shine a bit more, thread the needle got increased to a "must have" which affects feat choices for the build, and second skin is the kind of boost which makes the tree ee viable. Nice work, I hope.

    Overall the tree looks better but still has glaring abilities. Insults and Swashbuckling Style II are easily the two worst offenders, I frankly see little reason to invest in either, ever. Resonant arms took the worst nerf, which I hope was an oversight as it was a thematic, useful, and fun ability... now its something which will likely be outgrown or simply taken to reach 41 pts in tree. Reworking Fast Movement and adding Different Track and Second Skin were easily the best changes, promoting ease of play in heroic, and viability to epic. The 1WF feats are terrible atrocities, but only requiring one for the enhancement potion of the character is a livable crime. Between that, weapon finesse, and precision, it "requires" three feats, which is perfectly parallel to taking three feats out on 2wf, its biggest competitor. Im not sure I would call them even just yet, but at least in terms of resources used they are, meaning its workable to build one and see.

    I hope this feedback was useful, and look forward to future changes (I hope). While there is a lot of good here, some of the abilities are still terrible, and with fixes/reworks to trees being a long time coming (please barbarian next... omg their enhancements make baby kobolds cry) it feels like theres a lot of pressure to get these right the first time. Thanks, cheers.

  12. #132
    DDO Trivia Champion alancarp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    (We do in fact pay attention to who is posting, so you aren't pulling a fast one by posting the same ideas repeatedly. We read in enough detail to be able to say, "Oh, that's just Steelstar posting about making awesome raids again.")
    And that is very much noted and appreciated. Cheers.

  13. #133

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    Quote Originally Posted by bbqzor View Post
    Resonant arms took the worst nerf, which I hope was an oversight
    It was, in fact. It's been re-added to the first post of this thread. Tune Arm/Music Box was also missing text saying that it scales with Sonic Spell Power, that's been added also.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HatsuharuZ View Post
    Secondly, En Pointe shouldn't have a critical multiplier penalty. After all, most of the weapons that a swashbuckler will use have an x2 critical multiplier!
    No weapon a Swashbuckler uses has a 2x multiplier: increasing the multiplier to at least 3x is one of the leading benefits of the tree.

    Quote Originally Posted by HatsuharuZ View Post
    Fourth, please allow SWF to work with all shields except for tower shields. Is there a reason for a shield-user to not have a good offensive option?
    If they want to increase the damage from S&B people, they can just add more bonuses into Shield Mastery / Shield Bash feats. The S&B guys can't afford to spend even more feats on an SWF line.

  15. #135
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Default File under "If Turbine put ME in charge..."

    How I would want to implement the SWF feats:

    Single Weapon Fighting: while you have a 1H melee weapon in your main hand and no weapon in your offhand, you gain +5% Doublestrike. If Precision is active, you reduce your target's fortification by an additional 5%. You also gain the Deflect Melee feat. [Every time you are about to be struck with a melee attack and are not helpless, there is a 5% chance of parrying that attack, taking no damage. This effect can proc once every 6 seconds.] In addition, if your offhand is:
    • Empty: you gain +0.5[W] modifier to your main-hand weapon. If Precision is active, you reduce your target's fortification by an additional 5%.
    • Shield: You gain an additional +5% parrying chance to your Deflect Melee feat.
    • Orb or Runearm: +10 Universal Spellpower and +1% spell crit chance.


    Improved Single Weapon Fighting (reqs BAB 6 & SWF): while you have a 1H melee weapon in your main hand and no weapon in your offhand, you gain +5% Doublestrike. If Precision is active, you reduce your target's fortification by an additional 5% (stacks w/SWF bonus). Your Deflect Melee feat gains an additional +5% parrying chance and can now proc once every 4 seconds. In addition, if your offhand is:
    • Empty: you gain +0.5[W] modifier to your main-hand weapon. If Precision is active, you reduce your target's fortification by an additional 5%.
    • Shield: You gain an additional +5% parrying chance to your Deflect Melee feat.
    • Orb or Runearm: +10 Universal Spellpower and +1% spell crit chance.


    Greater Single Weapon Fighting (reqs BAB 11, SWF, and ISWF): while you have a 1H melee weapon in your main hand and no weapon in your offhand, you gain +5% Doublestrike. If Precision is active, you reduce your target's fortification by an additional 5% (stacks w/ISWF bonus). Your Deflect Melee feat gains an additional +5% parrying chance and can now proc once every 2 seconds. In addition, if your offhand is:
    • Empty: you gain +0.5[W] modifier and Vorpal property to your main-hand weapon. If Precision is active, you reduce your target's fortification by an additional 5%.
    • Shield: You gain an additional +5% parrying chance to your Deflect Melee feat. You also gain the Counterattack ability: if you successfully parry a melee attack, you have a 5% chance of making an immediate counterattack on your attacker with a -5 to-hit penalty.
    • Orb or Runearm: +10 Universal Spellpower and +1% spell crit chance. You also gain a 5% Enhancement discount to the Spell Point cost of all your spells. [Does not stack with other Enhancement discounts such as Amauntor's Blessing.]


    So if you have GSWF, then your bonuses based on your offhand are:


    • Empty: +15% doublestrike, -30% Fortification w/Precision, 15% Deflect Melee chance, +1.5[W], Vorpal
    • Shield: +15% doublestrike, -15% Fortification w/Precision, 30% Deflect Melee chance, Counterattack
    • Orb or Runearm: +15% doublestrike, -15% Fortification w/Precision, 15% Deflect Melee chance, +30 Universal Spellpower, +3% spell crit chance, -5% SP cost to all spells


    I tried to include something interesting in GSWF for each offhand option. I made the numbers up; I'm sure it would take plenty of testing to decide if they should be tweaked higher or lower. I did NOT want it to depend on what armor you wear; and I wanted to keep it compatible with S&B. I also wanted it to be setup so your bonuses change based on what's in your offhand; i.e., keep it empty when you're trying to max out your melee DPS, swap in a shield if you need to fight defensively for a while, swap in an orb if you need a caster boost.

    Swashbuckling has stricter restrictions than SWF, such as light armor and Finessable weapons, but adds extra bonuses, which seems reasonable. A conventional S&B toon could benefit from SWF (for doublestrike & defensive bonuses), THF (glancing blows), and Shield Mastery (doublestrike & PRR) if they can afford that many feats. While a battlecaster might want SWF for Deflect Melee + caster bonuses.
    Last edited by unbongwah; 05-01-2014 at 05:14 PM.

  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    There are no words to describe how GARBAGE these SWF feats are.

    Let's start with the feat requirement: WHAT? 7 Ranks of Balance on a bard? Why in the world..
    It does not work with weapons with multiple dice?

    Forget the +X sides stuff and convert to increased double-strike. Seriously the +X sides stuff sounds like a mechanic just begging to be broken.

  17. #137
    Community Member OverlordOfRats's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    How I would want to implement the SWF feats:

    Single Weapon Fighting: while you have a 1H melee weapon in your main hand and no weapon in your offhand, you gain +5% Doublestrike. If Precision is active, you reduce your target's fortification by an additional 5%. You also gain the Deflect Melee feat. [Every time you are about to be struck with a melee attack and are not helpless, there is a 5% chance of parrying that attack, taking no damage. This effect can proc once every 6 seconds.] In addition, if your offhand is:
    • Empty: you gain +0.5[W] modifier to your main-hand weapon. If Precision is active, you reduce your target's fortification by an additional 5%.
    • Shield: You gain an additional +5% parrying chance to your Deflect Melee feat.
    • Orb or Runearm: +10 Universal Spellpower and +1% spell crit chance.


    Improved Single Weapon Fighting (reqs BAB 6 & SWF): while you have a 1H melee weapon in your main hand and no weapon in your offhand, you gain +5% Doublestrike. If Precision is active, you reduce your target's fortification by an additional 5% (stacks w/SWF bonus). Your Deflect Melee feat gains an additional +5% parrying chance and can now proc once every 4 seconds. In addition, if your offhand is:
    • Empty: you gain +0.5[W] modifier to your main-hand weapon. If Precision is active, you reduce your target's fortification by an additional 5%.
    • Shield: You gain an additional +5% parrying chance to your Deflect Melee feat.
    • Orb or Runearm: +10 Universal Spellpower and +1% spell crit chance.


    Greater Single Weapon Fighting (reqs BAB 11, SWF, and ISWF): while you have a 1H melee weapon in your main hand and no weapon in your offhand, you gain +5% Doublestrike. If Precision is active, you reduce your target's fortification by an additional 5% (stacks w/ISWF bonus). Your Deflect Melee feat gains an additional +5% parrying chance and can now proc once every 2 seconds. In addition, if your offhand is:
    • Empty: you gain +0.5[W] modifier and Vorpal property to your main-hand weapon. If Precision is active, you reduce your target's fortification by an additional 5%.
    • Shield: You gain an additional +5% parrying chance to your Deflect Melee feat. You also gain the Counterattack ability: if you successfully parry a melee attack, you have a 5% chance of making an immediate counterattack on your attacker with a -5 to-hit penalty.
    • Orb or Runearm: +10 Universal Spellpower and +1% spell crit chance. You also gain a 5% Enhancement discount to the Spell Point cost of all your spells. [Does not stack with other Enhancement discounts such as Amauntor's Blessing.]


    So if you have GSWF, then your bonuses based on your offhand are:


    • Empty: +15% doublestrike, -30% Fortification w/Precision, 15% Deflect Melee chance, +1.5[W], Vorpal
    • Shield: +15% doublestrike, -15% Fortification w/Precision, 30% Deflect Melee chance, Counterattack
    • Orb or Runearm: +15% doublestrike, -15% Fortification w/Precision, 15% Deflect Melee chance, +30 Universal Spellpower, +3% spell crit chance, -5% SP cost to all spells


    I tried to include something interesting in GSWF for each offhand option. I made the numbers up; I'm sure it would take plenty of testing to decide if they should be tweaked higher or lower. I did NOT want it to depend on what armor you wear; and I wanted to keep it compatible with S&B. I also wanted it to be setup so your bonuses change based on what's in your offhand; i.e., keep it empty when you're trying to max out your melee DPS, swap in a shield if you need to fight defensively for a while, swap in an orb if you need a caster boost.

    Swashbuckling has stricter restrictions than SWF, such as light armor and Finessable weapons, but adds extra bonuses, which seems reasonable. A conventional S&B toon could benefit from SWF (for doublestrike & defensive bonuses), THF (glancing blows), and Shield Mastery (doublestrike & PRR) if they can afford that many feats. While a battlecaster might want SWF for Deflect Melee + caster bonuses.
    Good ideas!

    It provides variety for non Swashbucklers and works with Swashbuckler also.

  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    How I would want to implement the SWF feats:

    Single Weapon Fighting: while you have a 1H melee weapon in your main hand and no weapon in your offhand, you gain +5% Doublestrike. If Precision is active, you reduce your target's fortification by an additional 5%. You also gain the Deflect Melee feat. [Every time you are about to be struck with a melee attack and are not helpless, there is a 5% chance of parrying that attack, taking no damage. This effect can proc once every 6 seconds.] In addition, if your offhand is:
    • Empty: you gain +0.5[W] modifier to your main-hand weapon. If Precision is active, you reduce your target's fortification by an additional 5%.
    • Shield: You gain an additional +5% parrying chance to your Deflect Melee feat.
    • Orb or Runearm: +10 Universal Spellpower and +1% spell crit chance.


    Improved Single Weapon Fighting (reqs BAB 6 & SWF): while you have a 1H melee weapon in your main hand and no weapon in your offhand, you gain +5% Doublestrike. If Precision is active, you reduce your target's fortification by an additional 5% (stacks w/SWF bonus). Your Deflect Melee feat gains an additional +5% parrying chance and can now proc once every 4 seconds. In addition, if your offhand is:
    • Empty: you gain +0.5[W] modifier to your main-hand weapon. If Precision is active, you reduce your target's fortification by an additional 5%.
    • Shield: You gain an additional +5% parrying chance to your Deflect Melee feat.
    • Orb or Runearm: +10 Universal Spellpower and +1% spell crit chance.


    Greater Single Weapon Fighting (reqs BAB 11, SWF, and ISWF): while you have a 1H melee weapon in your main hand and no weapon in your offhand, you gain +5% Doublestrike. If Precision is active, you reduce your target's fortification by an additional 5% (stacks w/ISWF bonus). Your Deflect Melee feat gains an additional +5% parrying chance and can now proc once every 2 seconds. In addition, if your offhand is:
    • Empty: you gain +0.5[W] modifier and Vorpal property to your main-hand weapon. If Precision is active, you reduce your target's fortification by an additional 5%.
    • Shield: You gain an additional +5% parrying chance to your Deflect Melee feat. You also gain the Counterattack ability: if you successfully parry a melee attack, you have a 5% chance of making an immediate counterattack on your attacker with a -5 to-hit penalty.
    • Orb or Runearm: +10 Universal Spellpower and +1% spell crit chance. You also gain a 5% Enhancement discount to the Spell Point cost of all your spells. [Does not stack with other Enhancement discounts such as Amauntor's Blessing.]


    So if you have GSWF, then your bonuses based on your offhand are:


    • Empty: +15% doublestrike, -30% Fortification w/Precision, 15% Deflect Melee chance, +1.5[W], Vorpal
    • Shield: +15% doublestrike, -15% Fortification w/Precision, 30% Deflect Melee chance, Counterattack
    • Orb or Runearm: +15% doublestrike, -15% Fortification w/Precision, 15% Deflect Melee chance, +30 Universal Spellpower, +3% spell crit chance, -5% SP cost to all spells


    I tried to include something interesting in GSWF for each offhand option. I made the numbers up; I'm sure it would take plenty of testing to decide if they should be tweaked higher or lower. I did NOT want it to depend on what armor you wear; and I wanted to keep it compatible with S&B. I also wanted it to be setup so your bonuses change based on what's in your offhand; i.e., keep it empty when you're trying to max out your melee DPS, swap in a shield if you need to fight defensively for a while, swap in an orb if you need a caster boost.

    Swashbuckling has stricter restrictions than SWF, such as light armor and Finessable weapons, but adds extra bonuses, which seems reasonable. A conventional S&B toon could benefit from SWF (for doublestrike & defensive bonuses), THF (glancing blows), and Shield Mastery (doublestrike & PRR) if they can afford that many feats. While a battlecaster might want SWF for Deflect Melee + caster bonuses.
    With ideas like those, I wish you did.

  19. #139
    Community Member Cardtrick's Avatar
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    Default Some math on the SWF feats

    Since Vargouille's response didn't outright tell us not to do math , I figured I'd give it a try. This whole post is about the SWF feats, not the Swashbuckler enhancement tree.

    Any math is necessarily limited, since there are so many character builds and pieces of equipment out there. I believe that what I'm going to post here is at least representative enough to be worth considering, but I'm interested in critiques and improvements. I am probably missing some things, but if so I hope people will point them out. I will try to make my simplifications explicit.

    * For right now, I'm just going to consider THF vs. SWF. The math is a bit easier to deal with, and it seems like overall THF is currently pretty reasonably balanced against TWF.

    * For right now, I'm just looking at the SWF feats, not the enhancement tree. (If we are supposed to only consider them together, then they should come together, and not be separate feats.)

    * Where possible, I think I'm skewing my asssumptions and choices in favor of the SWF feats. Most importantly, I'm going with Thunderforged weapons, which have very high [W] modifiers, and I'm assuming equal (and low) stat modifiers for both versions (even though in reality a strength-based THFer can get much higher here than a DEX/CHA-based SWFer).

    * I'm going for approximately an "early endgame" character, with reasonably level-appropriate gear but nothing ridiculous, and unspecified and ignored epic destiny

    Details on the example character:

    Damage stat (str/dex/cha/whatever): 60 (note that this probably too high for cha/dex to damage and definitely way too low for str to damage)

    Deadly Item Level bonus to damage: 10

    Miscellaneous Damage Bonus: 5 (probably way too low -- this is a catchall to cover bard songs/divine favor/enhancements/ED abilities/etc.)

    Seeker: 15 (10 base + 5 exceptional)

    Relevant assumed feats: improved critical, overwhelming critical, either power attack or swashbuckler precision, all 3 of either SWF or THF feats

    For weapon, let's assume Thunder-forged, Tier 2 or higher. This is giving a big advantage to SWF compared to most other weapon types, due to the 4.5 W modifier.
    Let's go with Falchion for THF (4.5[2d4], 18-20x2) and Rapier for SWF (4.5[1d6], 18-20x2). Greataxe might be a better choice for the THF weapon, but rapier is the clear choice for swashbuckling-eligible SWF weapon and the identical critical profiles make falchions and rapiers a bit easier to compare.

    Methodology:

    Consider 20 swings, one at each die roll, and assume that every swing is a hit and every critical is confirmed.

    My belief is that this simplification is extremely reasonable for self-buffed endgame characters. Note that due to Seeker's bonus to confirmation rolls and the fact that a roll of 1 on a confirmation roll is not an auto-fail the way a roll of 1 is an auto-miss in melee, I'm pretty sure the critical confirmation piece is true to a good approximation. Missing is harder to quantify, but I very very rarely miss in the real game -- infrequently enough that I think they're probably all rolls of 1. I also don't think there's any major reason that missing should benefit one of these builds more than the other (I think we can ignore the attack penalty from power attack).

    Note that I might be modeling glancing blows a bit wrong, but I don't think I am -- or at least not wrong enough to matter. My understanding is that with all 3 feats:

    1. Glancing blows will occur on 3 swings out of 4
    2. Glancing blows do not miss
    3. Glancing blows do not crit
    4. Glancing blows apply 50% of the total "base" damage

    For hits, crits, and glancing blows, I am ignoring any damage "procs" that can trigger beyond the base damage. This slightly favors SWF over THF, since in reality glancing blows have a chance to trigger these procs.

    I am not going to try to factor in the fact that glancing blows apply to more than just your current target, in a cleave-like area of effect. This is obviously a major advantage for THF, but it's too hard to model and doesn't apply all the time.

    The numbers:

    Swing Falchion (THF Feats) Falchion (No Feats) Rapier (SWF Feats)
    1 Miss: 0 Miss: 0
    2-14 Hit: 4.5 * Avg[2d4] (base)
    + 12 (enhancement)
    + 1.5*25 (stat modifier)
    + 10 (deadly)
    + 10 (power attack)
    + 5 (misc)
    + .75 * .5 * <above total> (glancing blows)
    = 97 base + 36.375 glancing blows
    = 133.375 total
    Hit: 4.5 * Avg[2d4] (base)
    + 12 (enhancement)
    + 1.5*25 (stat modifier)
    + 10 (deadly)
    + 10 (power attack)
    + 5 (misc)
    + .50 * .2 * <above total> (glancing blows)
    = 97 base + 9.7 glancing blows
    = 106.7 total
    Hit:
    4.5 * Avg[1d(6+6)] (base)
    + 12 (enhancement)
    + 1 * 25 (stat modifier)
    + 10 (deadly)
    + 5 (power attack or swashbuckler precision)
    + 5 (misc)
    = 86.25
    15-18 Crit:
    2 * (
    4.5 * Avg[2d4] (base)
    + 12 (enhancement)
    + 1.5*25 (stat modifier)
    + 10 (deadly)
    + 15 (seeker)
    + 10 (power attack)
    + 5 (misc)
    )
    + 36.375 (glancing blows, unaffected by crit)
    = 224 base + 36.375 glancing blows
    = 260.375 total
    Crit:
    2 * (
    4.5 * Avg[2d4] (base)
    + 12 (enhancement)
    + 1.5*25 (stat modifier)
    + 10 (deadly)
    + 15 (seeker)
    + 10 (power attack)
    + 5 (misc)
    )
    + 9.7 (glancing blows, unaffected by crit)
    = 224 base + 9.7 glancing blows
    = 233.7 total
    Crit:
    2 * (
    4.5 * Avg[1d(6+6)] (base)
    + 12 (enhancement)
    + 1 * 25 (stat modifier)
    + 10 (deadly)
    + 15 (seeker)
    + 5 (power attack or swashbuckler precision)
    + 5 (misc)
    )
    = 202.50
    19-20 Extra Crit:
    3 * (
    4.5 * Avg[2d4] (base)
    + 12 (enhancement)
    + 1.5*25 (stat modifier)
    + 10 (deadly)
    + 15 (seeker)
    + 10 (power attack)
    + 5 (misc)
    )
    + 36.375 (glancing blows, unaffected by crit)
    = 336 base + 36.375 glancing blows
    = 372.375 total
    Extra Crit:
    3 * (
    4.5 * Avg[2d4] (base)
    + 12 (enhancement)
    + 1.5*25 (stat modifier)
    + 10 (deadly)
    + 15 (seeker)
    + 10 (power attack)
    + 5 (misc)
    )
    + 9.7 (glancing blows, unaffected by crit)
    = 336 base + 9.7 glancing blows
    = 345.7 total
    Extra Crit:
    3 * (
    4.5 * Avg[1d(6+6)] (base)
    + 12 (enhancement)
    + 1 * 25 (stat modifier)
    + 10 (deadly)
    + 15 (seeker)
    + 5 (power attack or swashbuckler precision)
    + 5 (misc)
    )
    = 303.75
    Total 3520 3013 2539
    Per Swing 176 151 127

    This came out actually a lot worse for SWF than I expected. As you can see, based on this model, on normal swings not only is a falchion with the THF feats 38% more damage than a rapier with the SWF feats -- but using the falchion even without the feats is still 19% more damage than the rapier with all three feats.

    With my numbers, the breakeven point at which the 3 SWF feats with a rapier would come out to as much damage as just using a falchion is just about 20[W]. So no combination of Dance of flowers + Momentum Swing + whatever is going to come even close to that. (The breakeven point for the 3 SWF feats to match the 3 THF feats, including the glancing blow damage, is about 205[W] -- yes, that's two hundred and five, not twenty-five.)

    I know I'm simplifying a lot of things, but I think most of those simplifications favor the SWF approach rather than THF.

    All in all, it seems to me like the SWF feats don't go anywhere near far enough to make up for the obvious deficiencies of using a single one-handed weapon. The only characters for whom these feats might make sense to take are swashbuckler bards, although they still don't have enough feats to make taking these an easy choice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Zero View Post
    One day I just wrote "Why Do I Die So Much?" in party chat, and that is how I learned about fortification.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    It was, in fact. It's been re-added to the first post of this thread. Tune Arm/Music Box was also missing text saying that it scales with Sonic Spell Power, that's been added also.
    That is a VERY good call!

    Excellent, actually!

    Now, if it would be able to make bards proficient with rune arms /need to take that as a enchantement, in worst case scenario a feat - but dont forget, that class is terribly featstarved/, it would be even more awesome!

    Pretty please? :-)
    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    Its also a hireling, it needs buffs to figure out what end the food goes in.
    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    Oh and Lol - Fortitude 57, Reflex 64, Will 55 {Godlike Saves!}.
    Quote Originally Posted by VCB View Post
    There are players that I wish could be improved to the point of being a hire.

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