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Thread: Swashbuckler

  1. #361
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    Default Haggle please?

    When the enhancement trees first came out I was surprised and disappointed that bards did not have any Haggle enhancements. Inconceivable.

    I don't see any Haggle abilities here either. Inconceivable.

    Could we get a +2/+4/+6 enhancement please? Hagglebards are iconic ddo characters. If they don't get a boost while a pass is being made to their PRE's it would be, well,

  2. #362
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    This sounds like a flavor option that will surely be delightful for those very much into that style, but it is hardly a solution for other shield builds.


    At first side, I wouldn-t multiclass my shielder into this. It is too much of a bard. No dwarf worth his name would use this either :P


    Since you mention 1h fighting feats, why not making them real feats and available outside of enhancement trees? Right now the damage output of a shielder is FAR behind that of a twfer or THfer whereas the defensive boost is really small.

    What we shielders need, aside from narrow flavor options, is a general line of S/B enhancements. Some thoughts.

    1. Glancing blows don-t make the cut in epics, and this is the only addition to damage for a shielder wrt to everyone else.

    -> THF line: must increase damage substantially, I would say that if the current difference between a DPS build and a shielder is around 2/3 damage down, it should go up to 1/3.

    A simple way could be increasing threat ranges and or increasing crit multipliers. Adding +1d8 simply doesnt cut it where it currently hurts, EE.

    2. The defense gain / damage loss ratio is just so detrimental to shielders right now.

    Together with 1, PRR curve has way too high decreasing returns. AC needs to be tuned to work...

    As particular suggestions, give more PRR for a shield.

    I apologize if I miss any answer to my concerns, the thread was just pointed out to me by a guildy.

    PS - Since it is a good opportunity to revitalize the melee scene in EE; please do not hold back on giving feats to increase damage for 1h weapons.
    Last edited by BigErkyKid; 04-26-2014 at 04:09 PM.

  3. #363
    Community Member Hilltrot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbqzor View Post
    I have to agree that I think people are asking for too much in one tree. This is a great tree to multiclass with. If you want dex to atk/dmg, go 17 bard 3 rogue. You lose the 30% dodge cap and slippery mind, but gain dex to atk/dmg, 2d6 sneak attack, and trap skills. Thats perfectly reasonable, especially on a class with a lot of ways to ensure precision damage hits. If you want cha to atk/dmg, use PDK with shortswords, thats the races defining thing. Or Elyd Edge, a great swashbuckler choice and good bard weapon in general. It doesnt have to do everything "in house" so to speak.

    Obviously, per my other posts, I think it needs some adjustments but things so drastic as weapon stat changes are probably unrealistic, and issues the game can already solve the same way any other build solves them. People will offer what feedback they will, but its worth keeping in mind that 20 bard isnt the only combination that can or will use the tree. Bard 15, Rogue 3, Fighter 2 seems especially good for this tree, while Bard 20 seems nice for what it can do with all three trees together. Its a nice PRE to work with, but needs some adjustments and probably more T5 things (cant think of any other trees which have just 2 off the top of my head)... and thats okay, this is a first draft on paper, without even going to Lam yet. Cheers.
    I disagree wholeheartedly. If the tree requires you to use only weapons which can be finessed, then it makes sense to make improved weapon finesse part of the tree. There should be no need to dual class to get an obviously required part of the character. People shouldn't be forced to play a drow to not have to multiclass.

    Improved weapon finesse in the DWS sniper tree also has a feat requirement which would make this balanced by reducing the number of Feat slots. They could add additional requirements like you have to be in swashbuckling stance.

    If you want to play a rogue/bard, you can play one now! If you want to play a ranger/bard, you can play one now! This is a different character than those are. Being able to multi-class is fine, but if you HAVE to multi-class your character to make it work, then the class is broken. I shouldn't have to play an Elf in order to single-class semi-effectively.

    You are right in that the tree is pretty crowed, except at the top. Moving one of them up is one option.

    However, I would simply get rid of Aqua Vitae. Especially if it were on a long cooldown. That ability is worthless and makes no sense.

    Another option is to make improved weapon finesse a feat. They were asking for some feats to add and this, I think, would be an obvious one.

  4. #364
    Community Member Hilltrot's Avatar
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    No one will take tavern shanties when you can take Poetic Edda for 1 more point and +3 to attack and the ability to skaldic rage. Or they will take Musical studies for 1 more point and +4 universal spell power, +2 spell crit, +1 to skills.

    Adding some positive spell power to tavern shanties would make it worthwhile. Or have tavern shanties do something else.

    (this is getting long . . . is Turbine still reading this?)

  5. #365
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    My thoughts after reading all bajillion pages.

    1. This strikes me as a very dex-based tree...except for the lack of dex for hit and damage. Stat points include dex, evasion, finessable weapons, all scream for weapon finesse. I would add the weapon finesse feat into the first core ability. This is comparable to the first core abilities for assassin and ninja spy, so there's no real argument it's overpowered. I would then offer improved weapon finesse somewhere high in the tree (tier 3 or 4). Tier five is too high, just because it would be miserable to play 11 levels through without dex for damage. This solves the dps issue (as far as you can solve it for bards), it makes the tree more cohesive, and it helps with the reflex saves you'd need to make the evasion viable.

    This also solves a bit of a feat crisis. For a swashbuckler, I would want to take empower healing, quicken, imp crit, all three SWF feats, precision, and weapon finesse. That's 8 feats, and I only get 7. (I'd also love to take things like heighten, spell focus, etc., but this is a melee toon and choices have to be made.) If you grant weapon finesse with the tree, it allows swashbucklers to build a reasonable decent melee toon with self-healing capabilities, which is what it should be.

    2. Speaking of saves, I would replace the aqua vitae (which not one person has said they liked) with a bard song giving a significant boost to saves. Saves are the thing that seem to be missing here. AC and PRR are good too, but I can grab some of that in tier one of warchanter. Maybe not as much as I would like, but as much as I am likely to get. Maybe the third tier of that song could also add your charisma modifier to saves, AC, or PRR. This would also add in a bard song for this tree. Frankly, it's unconscionable for a bard tree to have no songs.

    3. Regarding the debate on where evasion falls on the tree, I don't think it should be too low level. If the most you are willing to give bards is evasion, it belongs in the capstone to reward people staying pure. I can also see giving evasion at lvl 12 core and improved evasion at capstone. I'm not generally a fan of tossing around evasion/improved evasion to everyone, but it would fit the feel of a swashbuckler, and it would be great for epic levels. The capstone serves as both the cap to heroics and the gateway into epics. These are also still high level enough to not take away from the benefits of rogue, monk, or ranger.

    4. Swashbuckler stance absolutely positively must work with scrolls. As others have said, it would be a mess if every time a bard went to scroll, they have to again click the stance. Bards have UMD as a class skill and wand and scroll mastery elsewhere in spellsinger. They are meant to use them, so don't hurt them for doing so.

    5. I agree with those that say that this will rise or fall on the SWF feats. Since we don't know what those are, we're kind of driving blind. I do feel strongly that the line needs to be equivalent in dps as the other two lines. If it isn't, there is no point, no matter how much dodge and AC you put in it. If you make it heavily defensive, it falls into the paladin trap - you can't be killed, but you can't kill anything either. Nothing like an hour long standoff with a regenerating boss while you wait for a friend to come in and rescue you...on their halfling thrower barbarian.

    I like that each line seems to have a slightly different flavor or way to do damage. A straight damage percentage increase isn't the way to go, because that will only address base damage and not effects, etc. Personally, I would go with each feat applying 20% more doublestrike. It's clean and easy to figure out, much like the TWF. (I'm assuming there will be three SWF like in the other lines). It's not overpowered, because it's still 20% less than you can get TWF. That means you can either 1) use a shield for more defense (not limited to bards, obviously), 2) take 9+ druid levels and add natural fighting to get up to 78% doublestrike, which is still just below TWF but with the advantage of wolf speed if that's the way you go, or 3) take Dashing Scoundrel and full swashbuckler levels for 73% doublestrike.

    Again, for anyone that pauses at 20% doublestrike each feat, you forget that each TWF feat allows exactly the same benefit ON TOP OF the inherent 20%, for a total of 80% extra damage. I see no reason why SWF can't approximate this with a combination of that and other feats/enhancements.

    6. The penalty to En Pointe is not a good idea. I'd prefer to see a moderate cooldown. I recognize that it is a fairly large bonus, so I don't think it should be spammed, but the penalty means few people would use it.
    Last edited by Grace_ana; 04-26-2014 at 06:14 PM.
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  6. #366
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    I like the overall idea of the Prestige - opens up a new type of fighting style. The major flaw I see right now is the same one that plagues the other Bard trees and Bard in general...an unwillingness to "specialize" enough to be viable as a standalone fighting style. 1HF should be comparably in the ballpark to the DPS you can achieve with 2HF/TWF/Monk unarmed. To compare, look at Rogue Acrobat - which really made Stickfighting legit again - and compare the kind of bonuses you get there to the kind of bonuses you're giving out here...

    -Dodge: You get 5% dodge from the tree, plus Uncanny Dodge (is this Char Lvl based or Bard Lvl based?), plus 7% if you go Skirmisher, for 17% if you're pure 20 Bard Skirmisher. I think that's a little low...you cant add Monk (the major other source of stacking Dodge) to Bard, and you already have Uncanny so Rogue/Barb splashes wont benefit you. I think every Core should have a passive 1% Dodge to go with it. Swashbucklers, especially Scoundrels who have to eschew one of their gear slots entirely, should be able to hit their (elevated) Dodge cap relatively easily.

    -Doublestrike: Definitely way too low to compensate for half the ROF of TWF and half the base damage of THF. There either needs to be way more doublestrike (I'm imagining something around 50% sustained for a T5 Swashbuckler), or something like the Thief-Acrobat skill that gives you a serious stacking melee speed bonus. *This is a potential class-breaking issue*. If your DPS is not comparable to other fighting styles, this whole tree is DOA. The Sonic damage is going to be negligible by endgame, even with spellpower, and the inherent CC is not strong enough to make up for the lost DPS. Yes, you get a slew of defensive bonuses, but if combat takes 50% longer because you're doing weak DPS, then that negates any defensive advantage.

    -I think the tree needs, basically, a Bard version of Divine Might - Make It Look Easy: While Swashbuckling, you gain half your CHA bonus as a bonus to damage. Same tiers and cooldowns as Divine Might. Again, that's to keep it competitive with other melee builds, and also to give some benefit to keeping CHA up on melee Bards.

    -Aqua Vitae: 1d6 HP x 4? Whoop-de-****. Especially with a "long cooldown". I get its supposed to be like a "Cocoon Lite", but unless its affected by Metas and Spellpower like Cocoon is, its extremely lackluster, especially considering Bard already has self-heals. And extend the duration a bit longer (20s?)...those temp HP probably aren't going to last long in combat (60 HP, at L20 and above, is maybe 1-2 hits), so if you CAN keep them going, you should be rewarded with more healing.

    -Sword Dance: Like all "Thorns" effects, this needs to be scaled WAY up. Monster's ROF is *SLOW* compared to what players can achieve with on-hits, so 1d20 * Spellpower is a negligible increase to your DPS.

    -Elegant Footwork - make it a passive like Sword Dance.

    -Dashing Scoundrel - make it 25% Doublestrike. You can get +7% Doublestrike on a buckler already, cant you? And then go Skirmisher and get the Dodge as well

    -Cannoneer: Bastard Sword (and Dwarven War Axe, for Dwarves) are now considered Finesse weapons for the purpose of Swashbuckler enhancements. If you're going to create Bard-Arti synergy, then don't gate them out of Arti's focus melee weapons. Arti-Bard doesn't leave you much flexibility for anything else, anyway.

    -Resonant Arms: I like this, this is going to be one of the defining core skills, especially with the expanded Crit profiles from Swashbuckler. I think it needs to scale by the Crit Mult on the weapon as well, though, or else Rapiers are going to be head and shoulders above all the other Finesse weapon choices (as they already are). Picks might actually be a viable choice for Swashbucklers, so don't bury them again by making Range more useful than Mult.

    Evasion: I think Evasion should be in the L6 Core and Improved Evasion should be in the capstone. I don't see why you'd go pure Bard for the capstone for Evasion instead of going 18/2 Rogue for Evasion and getting trapping and Assassin enhancements alongside.

    ====

    Basic TLDR Summary: Don't be afraid you're making Bards too strong! Don't be afraid to toss a lot of strong benefits into Swashbuckler!

    Bards need the help, and there's not the danger of creating another hybrid Monk monster - and since its a unique fighting style, it wont synergize too strongly with other classes, either.
    Last edited by droid327; 04-26-2014 at 06:32 PM.

  7. #367
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    I wanted to add a couple things to my initial post and change an idea that was expressed a bit.

    First, I forgot to mention that I really like that finesse weapons are being emphasized because it encourages the use of weapon types that aren't normally used, like light picks, hand axes, and so on. Kudos on that.

    I had mentioned that I thought a lot more doublestrike needed to be added to bring the weapon damage up to par and had suggested that it all be spread out among the core abilities. After some thought, I think the doublestrike would be best spread out between the core abilities, the different enhancement tiers of Swashbuckler, and also spread out among the soon to come single weapon fighting feats to allow for more build flexibility.

    On the topic of doublestrike, I thought of an important additional reason that the existing abilities in the tree need a lot of augmentation, specifically added doublestrike, to bring the DPS up to par. A great deal of endgame DPS will be (or already is) coming from the Thunder Forge weapon procs. Thunder Forge weapon abilities like Crippling Flames and Mortal Fear add so much to what a character puts out that if the number of attacks a character gets is severely reduced, they can't possibly keep up on the DPS front. For this reason, a Swashbuckler is going to need a lot of additional doublestrike (to be utilized by Swashbucklers or single weapon fighters only, otherwise the doublestrike is a wash if available to all) in order to allow them to get closer to getting as many weapon procs as say a two weapon fighter gets.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oliphant View Post
    I would love a new (quicker) 1HF fighting animation sequence for this PRE, a fighting style with the flair of a legendary pirate

    Make it look the coolest!
    Good idea. A faster attack sequence would help them get up to speed on the DPS front. It also makes sense that a character would attack faster with a smaller weapon in one hand than they would with a large weapon or while concentrating on attacking with two weapons at a time. Plus, a new attack style absolutely deserves a new animation
    Last edited by FlaviusMaximus; 04-26-2014 at 11:53 PM.

  8. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    [Aqua Vitae] is meant to be a viable, non-magical emergency self-heal. From feedback so far, it sounds like the healing is too low at the very least. We'd love to know where you all think the healing should be, or what changes would make this ability interesting/"worth taking". Do bear in mind, it can be taken at level two.
    I think this is a philosophical mistake. If Swashbuckler was a Fighter tree then yes, but Bards are inherently a magical class. While it might not actually cost SP, I think that Vitae (like I mentioned above) should be considered Bardic magic, and benefit from everything that Cocoon benefits from (metas+spellpower), since its essentially the same skill (bubble+HOT).

    I think that would go most of the way to assuaging everyone's problems with it as originally described here, since main-class Bards are going to have Emp Heal and Positive spellpower already.

  9. #369
    2015 DDO Players Council Sebastrd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde View Post
    1. Tier 3 ability (toggle): Throw Anything. You can throw your one-handed melee weapon as if it were a returning weapon. While this toggle is active, the weapon is treated as a throwing weapon and only throwing-related feats, abilities, etc. apply to it.
    I love this idea. Of course, the first time someone throws a named weapon and it doesn't come back, there will be an uproar. However, I think it fits the Swashbuckler concept beautifully, and it's a unique ability with serious potential.

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  10. #370
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    Remember the DPS comparisons shouldn't be made between this and a TWF/THFer.

    These comparisons need to be made between those styles and this PRE combined with the Single Handed Fighting Feats.

    Of course there is a huge gap between this and a TWFer, because feats have been spent.

    To start really getting into the nitty gritty, we need Dev thoughts on the single-handed feat/feats.
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  11. #371
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    Default Bard decline

    Although I really am looking forward to seeing this PrE develop, I think the part that caused the biggest decline in bards was when the ship buffs and items became unstackable with bard buffs. I am more of a casual gamer than a constantly raiding type, but at least in the parts of the game I've been playing, I typically don't see many bards, and I think this is why. If a bard in the party was viewed as a great benefit, we'd see more of them.

    The swashbuckler will make the single-character playstyle more fun, but if it made other people better, that would be even better. Maybe cause the insults against enemies to also give a good humor buff to allies as well, with health and blue bar regen for a short amount of time.

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    Default Spontaneous Song: Insult

    Bards need songs. Please consider making Insults a Spontaneous Song ability instead of costing sp.

    Tier 1: Insult
    Spontaneous song (expends a song but instant activation): Reduces all saves of nearby enemies by 1 per Core Swashbuckler enhancement (ie -1 for level 1 bard, up to -6 for a level 20 Swashbuckler Bard) for (10/20/30) seconds. Cooldown 60 seconds.

    This should not be a multi selector but simply apply to all saves (otherwise having to choose reflex/will/fort reduction makes this almost impractical to use).

    Do reference Spellsinger's Tier 1 Haunting Melody: You rework Fascinate with haunting notes, intoxicating yet unnerving. Fascinated creatures are Haunted for (20/40/60) seconds. Haunted: -2 on all Saving Throws, Skill checks and attack rolls.

  13. #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by ufo2013 View Post
    Bards need songs. Please consider making Insults a Spontaneous Song ability instead of costing sp.

    Tier 1: Insult
    Spontaneous song (expends a song but instant activation): Reduces all saves of nearby enemies by 1 per Core Swashbuckler enhancement (ie -1 for level 1 bard, up to -6 for a level 20 Swashbuckler Bard) for (10/20/30) seconds. Cooldown 60 seconds.

    This should not be a multi selector but simply apply to all saves (otherwise having to choose reflex/will/fort reduction makes this almost impractical to use).

    Do reference Spellsinger's Tier 1 Haunting Melody: You rework Fascinate with haunting notes, intoxicating yet unnerving. Fascinated creatures are Haunted for (20/40/60) seconds. Haunted: -2 on all Saving Throws, Skill checks and attack rolls.
    They have 18 different songs already, 19 if you count Skaldic Rage. Also, if it weren't a multi-enhancement selector, it would be a bit OP. Note that Hanting Melody says that "Fascinated creatures are Haunted". Unlike Haunting Melody, your version of Insult doesn't have save involved anywhere.

  14. #374
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Cannoneer: Bastard Sword (and Dwarven War Axe, for Dwarves) are now considered Finesse weapons for the purpose of Swashbuckler enhancements. If you're going to create Bard-Arti synergy, then don't gate them out of Arti's focus melee weapons. Arti-Bard doesn't leave you much flexibility for anything else, anyway.
    This is actually a pretty valid point. It also adds a way to get some "heavier" weapon types into the stance, without just mucking up the stance (since this enhancement precludes taking one of the other options, its somewhat self balancing). Making Cannoneer add them to the stance list is a big win for Quality of Life with little damage done to power levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Evasion: I think Evasion should be in the L6 Core and Improved Evasion should be in the capstone. I don't see why you'd go pure Bard for the capstone for Evasion instead of going 18/2 Rogue for Evasion and getting trapping and Assassin enhancements alongside.
    Ive seen a lot of people mention putting evasion sooner in the tree, but this is probably the best case for it. Other than the 2 dex/cha, there really isnt a lot of loss doing this (+1 to inspire courage). And in exchange you get Evasion no matter the weapon used, since it shifts off being stance dependent, plus the usual rog benefits. While it does encourage going bard for some things at first glace, on the whole it may not... and thats the exact kind of situation you dont want to repeat with capstones. They should be a plain alternative to multiclass, not an obviously lesser choice when thought about.

    Its probably safer to put it at the lv12 core (Im not sure its fair having bards get it before rangers), plus it means anyone with "bard evasion" will have the bard class symbol, preventing it from being another 6 level splash in triple class builds. But with epic destinies already offering regular evasion to bards right now on live (albeit only when in that destiny), having evasion as a lv20 ability (albeit only when in that enhancement tree) could be seen as a parallel move rather than a gain. I think if the tree is supposed to represent evasive fighting, its probably fair to allow it to show up in heroic levels (after other classes get it, but in time to group with iconics at 15, the lv12 core is a good spot). Even if the capstone isnt made into Improved Evasion (which as some others have mentioned may be too much), it frees it up for something a bit more unique. Whatever that might be =p

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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde View Post
    Okay, here are some CRAZY ideas (and I have no clue how difficult these would be to implement)

    1. Tier 3 ability (toggle): Throw Anything. You can throw your one-handed melee weapon as if it were a returning weapon. While this toggle is active, the weapon is treated as a throwing weapon and only throwing-related feats, abilities, etc. apply to it.

    2. Tier 5 ability (toggle): Spam Thrower (yes it's a terrible name): While this ability is active your range with thrown weapons is greatly reduced, but you throw multiple weapons at once in a cone formation. (Basically like Cone of Cold only with, you know, thrown weapons).

    Of course it'd make sense if those were multiselector toggles with something else for melee. Throw Anything could, say, have a converse version that lets you use a throwing weapon as if it were a melee weapon. That'd be interesting, for sure. Spam Thrower (gawd that's a terrible name) could have a converse version where you lose your one-handed doublestrike with melee but instead hit everything in front of you on each attack.
    Yes, this is definitely going to make Bard the go to class for melee. Just imagine the synergy with Shiradi. I myself had actually thought that this ability should be made available more generally as a feat (on any weapons 2H or 1H) to shore melee up on par with spellcasters - with a throwing "multi-shot" version throw in for good measure. But giving it just to Bard is fine since I know it's take a incredible leap of faith to even contemplating starting in this class.

  16. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde View Post
    2. Tier 5 ability (toggle): Spam Thrower (yes it's a terrible name): While this ability is active your range with thrown weapons is greatly reduced, but you throw multiple weapons at once in a cone formation. (Basically like Cone of Cold only with, you know, thrown weapons).
    You can steal the name of a rogue daily power from 4e that have a description very similar to that: Blinding Barrage.

    It might even apply blind effect with a dex-based save (10 + full/half Bard level + Dex mod). Make it a 6-12 seconds blind, with a 30-45 seconds cooldown, and since it is an area attack, it is a good starter attack.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sebastrd View Post
    I love this idea. Of course, the first time someone throws a named weapon and it doesn't come back, there will be an uproar. However, I think it fits the Swashbuckler concept beautifully, and it's a unique ability with serious potential.
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  18. #378
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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by dydzio0614 View Post
    Last core ability additional effects:
    You receive Dodge feat for free.
    Toggle ability: If in swashbuckler stance you deal piercing/slashing bludgeoning damage on each hit it is converted to sonic damage and is affected by your sonic spell power.
    +0.5[W] When using a Rapier or Dagger in your Main Hand.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mryal View Post
    THIS.This is the best suggestion in this whole discussion by far.Put the evasion down to 12 and add this as capstone.This trully looks like a capstone, defines a whole new build just for staying pure 20.The bard has always had sonic spellpower and no way to effectively use it, and mediocre melee skills.This adds both together, wich is, like i had suggested earlier too, the only way to actualy bring a bard dps to an acceptable level.
    Nice to see that someone likes my idea. Putting evasion to tier 3 sounds like a good idea, making multiclassed 12 bard something not too bad. Although my ideas do not have this implemented.

    Here I show you my recent improvements:

    Last core ability consists of few separate choices:
    Why so big variety? Because the tree in general offers multiple ways of building character, and giving universal bonus, for example (+50 sonic spell power + evasion +10% doublestrike +6d6 sonic damage per hit +2 charisma+15% thrown weapon attack speed) does not sound too good for me. I think that what I suggest below would make really awesome tree, making bard versatile (giving it few ways of playing) and it should be worth effort of DDO programmers. Have in mind that I already play the game for few years.

    Choice 1: Fighter of the sound:
    You receive Dodge feat for free. (i think evasion would be too good addition to this choice considering it gives pretty good dps boost that even makes bard playable)
    Toggle ability: If in swashbuckler stance and wielding nothing in off-hand everytime you hit your piercing/slashing bludgeoning damage is converted to sonic damage and is affected by your sonic spell power.
    Additionally you gain +0.5[W] when using a rapier, scimitar or dagger in your main hand while swashbuckler stance is active.

    Choice 2: Defender of the seas:
    You receive Evasion and Shield Mastery feats for free. You can now use evasion while wearing a medium armor.
    Every weapon you wield deals aditional 1d6 sonic damage per hit, additional 1d6 sonic samage and 4d6 critical hit sonic damage when using rapier/scimitar/dagger.
    Every scimitar/Dagger/Rapier you wield deals both - slasling and piercing damage types for purpose of damage reduction.
    While under swashbuckler stance and wielding a shield or nothing in your off-hand you gain bonus to doublestrike equal to half of your perform skill modifier.
    Additionally you gain +3% dodge, +5 AC bonus, stacking bonus to all saves equal to 10% of your perform skill value. (60-69 perform would give +6 to all saves).

    Choice 3: Master of the Finesse:
    You get Evasion feat for free and bonus to reflex save equal to your charisma modifier.
    You can now use swashbuckler stance when two-weapon fighting.
    Toggle ability: "Tornado bladedance: While in swashbuckler stance and two-weapon fighting you can perform devstating cleave attack - you turn around as when using cleave ability but multiple times, it lasts for 5 seconds and you deal up to 20 hits to all nearby enemies that come in range. Under this effect you cna move but 50% slower than normal. When the effect ends you get -6 to str and con and -10% movement speed for one minute. Cooldown: 5 minutes.

    Choice 4: Devious Spellsword:
    You get Improved Evasion feat for free (maybe subject to change and degrade to evasion to prevent fast enhancement swap for some dungeons to gain benefits of imp. evasion).
    You gett +10% attack speed bonus with your weapons.
    You gain "improved sonic blast" ability that deals 2d6 sonic damage per caster level (affected by sonic spell power and metamagic) and stuns targed for 10 seconds on failed fortitude save (DC 20+charisma modifier). After successfully hitting enemy with this ability for more than 1 point of damage you have 2% Chance to deal 100-500 sonic damage to all nearby enemies for 15 seconds with melee or thrown weapon attacks in swashbuckler stance. Cooldown: 20 seconds. Cost: 30 spellpoints

    Choice 5: Throwing enchanter:
    You gain +1 DC of your illusion and enchantment spells. Your dance spells deal additional 2d6 sonic damage to affected enemies.
    When you use throwing weapon and in swashbuckler stance you gain +15% attack speed and doublestrike, and special effects depending of throwing weapon type:
    throwing dagger: on hit: 1% Chance to instantly slay non-boss enemy without saving throw
    throwing darts: 4d6 poison damage on every hit, grazing hits become "full" hits.
    throwing hammers: on hit 5% Chance to stun enemy for 6 seconds, on vorpal 100-200 bludgeoning damage.
    throwing axes: axes you throw gain deception effect, each throw gives enemy a stack of vulnerability
    shurikens: +4d6 poison damage 10-30 bleeding damage every 2 seconds for 8 seconds on critical hit, can stack up to 5 Times.
    Toggle ability: when wielding nothing in your offhand every dagger in your hands works as returning throwing dagger.

    Choice 6: Grim swashbuckler:

    You finish your bard training in original way by learning some uncommon parts of necromancy art.
    You gain +2 DC of your necromancy spells. (rather flavor than useful)
    When you wield orb in your off-hand and in swashbuckler stance you gain bonus to hit, damage and melee doublestrike same as your orb enhancement bonus.
    When wielding a dagger you gain +4d6 negative energy damage per hit and each hit counts as sneak attack. When wielding a sickle in your main hand you get + 15 universal spell power and +10d6 negative energy damage per hit. The negative damage for dagger and sickle is multiplied on critical hits and with sickle you have 20% Chance to slay enemy instantly on vorpal hit with no saving throw.
    Additionally on being hit you have 2% Chance to summon skeletal battlerager to aid you in battle.

    Looking for your feedback, guys.

  19. #379
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Rapier only tree, meh.

  20. #380
    Community Member Claver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post

    Please take a look at the Swashbuckler, and give us your comments, general ideas, and larger reactions in addition to feedback on individual abilities. As usual, this is an early look, so details may change, including names, individual numbers, including AP costs, and any balance concerns (which we welcome your input on.)
    Here are some general comments

    1. Swashbuckler/Duelist/Dashing Swordsman/Buccaneer etc is a worthwhile design goal and a very exciting addition to the game.

    2. Having said the above the current design doesn't adequately capture the flavor/spirit of a Swashbuckler. It needs a few different abilities sprinkled in to highlight the flamboyance and verbal repartee.

    3. The current design seems too focused on just a few ideas: dodge, double strike, single handed weapons, throwing weapons and sonic damage. There needs to be greater diversity of options. A throwing weapon build may not necessary be a single weapon build focus for instance. Add one or two enhancements that stand alone.

    4. I applaud the support of throwing weapons. This is very cool. I leave it to others to debate the numbers as is already being done. Please keep throwing weapons in the finished product.

    5. The Swashbuckler doesn't feel particularly Bard-like. Where are the songs? Where is the reference to perform skill? Sonic damage feels tacked on. There needs to be a better link for class identity and synergy. Add a few enhancements for this purpose, preferable ones that bolster Swashbuckler flair and diversity of ability.

    SUGGESTIONAdd an ability inspired by the Taunt spell from 2nd addition. This could provide a intimidate alternative, provide targeted control for versus casters, and a form of damage mitigation lacking in the tree

    Taunt Expend a Bard Song: For the next 30 seconds, target opponent attacks Swashbuckler using melee attacks so long as Swashbuckler remains in melee range. Melee attacks from that opponent are at -15 to hit and -15% damage (Same DC as Fascinate and same limitations)

    6. From a mechanics point of view, increasing the crit profile for a single weapon doesn't do enough damage to compete against using two weapons. From a design point of view, the sudden lethality of fencing master Swashbuckler has not been captured.

    SUGGESTIONAdd manaslayer as a core ability at level 12 or 18. I would think swashbucklers would be particularly deadly when fencing humanoids but not necessarily as skilled versus claw and fang.

    Form the WIKI: MANASLAYER: your weapon attacks gain the devastating ability to defeat a humanoid opponent with a single decisive blow. On an attack roll of 20 which is confirmed as a critical hit a humanoid target will be killed. Powerful humanoids may resist the vorpal strike and instead take 100 points of damage until they have been sufficiently weakened.

    7. Limiting swashbuckling to such a small set of finesse weapons takes some of the fun away. What if I want to make a scimitar "cutlass" wielding pirate ala crystal cove or use a long sword. I agree the central focus should be finesse weapons; however, there should be a means to swashbuckle with other one handed weapons if willing to pay a high AP opportunity costs ala centered Kensei.

    SUGGESTION Allow swashbuckling with all one handed weapons as a level 18 core ability or perhaps even a Tier 5 enhancement

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