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Thread: Swashbuckler

  1. #41
    Community Member IronClan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakeelala View Post
    Lots of awesome stuff here but let me try to re-orient your development efforts:

    Bard's and Monks cannot multiclass. Therefore, anything you want people to take for Melee involving this tree will be useless and unused if it cannot compete directly with 6-12 levels of Monk and their corresponding enhancement trees. The ONLY thrower build that is playable is Shurikens right now. No Shuriken build is evenb close to Viable without 3 levels of Monk for Ninja Master and/or 6 Levels of Monk for 10k.

    If you don't introduce new THROWING feats for making other thrown weapons viable against Shuriken or Ranged combat with bows/xbows, NO ONE WILL USE THIS TREE FOR THROWING. That's either MASSIVE boosts to doublesshot, or a similar % based proc for extra ammo like Shuriken Expertise and Lvl 3 Ninja Spy Core.

    PLEASE HEED THIS.
    I strenuously agree with this, "thrower expertese" and "10,000 throwers" has been suggested many times over but Turbine seems oblivious. Then it is STILL weak because Shurikens have Ninja training core at 3 monk levels that adds an additional 1% extra throw chance per dex point...

    So to even RIVAL Shurikens they need three feats or enhancements... Ninja training = Thrower training (I suggest Rogue Level 3 core ability in the acrobat tree)

  2. #42
    Community Member Grosbeak07's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Weak != worthless

    Just not good enough to make Bard's relevant.
    And what would make them relevant without being Over-powered?
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  3. #43
    Community Member Pilgrim1's Avatar
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    Hey don't forget that this is a bard tree. Lets add some devotion into this please!!

    Also i think you should just focus on shield + weapon and throwing. All that other stuff is gonna get in the way of things and no one likes to lose an off hand slot.

    Lastly sonic spell power? come on, give us something we can do with this sonic spell power.

  4. #44
    Developer Vargouille's Avatar
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    Anywhere someone is asking for a number or exactly what an ability does that has been left unfilled, that's pretty explicitly because we'd trying to get those numbers from you guys, instead of the other way around. It's not an accident!

    Anyone who mentions the Swashbuckler needing to miss with attacks to activate abilities isn't reading closely enough, or we've worded something poorly. There isn't a single ability in Swashbuckler that triggers off you missing with attacks.

  5. #45
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    I'm still not a fan of making a tree and feats that cater to a weapon style that simply doesn't exist currently. There's so much more work that could be done with the current weapon styles and add more diversity without adding in things to support Single Weapon Fighting.

    Things I do really like about this tree, ignoring the Swashbuckling requirements for now.


    • Weapons instantly become 18-20/x3 without requiring more investment.
    • Lots of Dodge, Doublestrike/Doubleshot, and higher Dodge caps too
    • Attacks that deal sonic damage that scales from spellpower.
    • Guard that deals even more sonic damage when the swashbuckler is missed.
    • Support for Orbs and Rune-arms outside of Artificer trees.
    • Fast movement
    • Thread the Needle


    One thing that I believe this tree is really missing though is something that increases damage based on Charisma modifier. Maybe not a straight "Use your Charisma Modifier for damage instead", but perhaps something like "Add 1/2 of your Charisma Modifier to your damage"
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  6. #46
    Community Member shadowowl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Why are people saying this is worthless?

    TON of dodge, and evasion as a capstone is pretty cool.
    ya I was thinking the same thing and basicly what all builds need is more surviabilty the dps is easy to come by being able to survive in EE as a melee is not. so evasion and dodge is a huge deal for this build.

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Exploit Weaknesses is actually pretty solid. You have to use a finessable weapon thus the whole run arm does not make a lot of sense. I would have to say with a x3 finessable crit weapon you should be able to crit much more frequently with exploit weaknesses. Getting adrenalines in fury of the wild is going to happen all the time. I have not looked at the numbers on doublstrike, but I would actually say in fury of the wild this is going to be an extremely potent enhancement. Lots of CC with adrenaline etc...
    Isn't exploit weakness a tier 6 ability so you should be able to twist it? And adrenaline is a core ability so you can't twist that. Am I missing something?

  8. #48
    2015 DDO Players Council Cetus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Anywhere someone is asking for a number or exactly what an ability does that has been left unfilled, that's pretty explicitly because we'd trying to get those numbers from you guys, instead of the other way around. It's not an accident!

    Anyone who mentions the Swashbuckler needing to miss with attacks to activate abilities isn't reading closely enough, or we've worded something poorly. There isn't a single ability in Swashbuckler that triggers off you missing with attacks.
    This tree is simply weak, and noone really cares about building for a fighting style that doesn't exist and sounds inferior from the very beginning.

    Its not interesting - and all you're going to do is pile on doublestrike and + damage until it evens out with THF and TWF? Its just boring, and why do bards get this style?
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  9. #49

    Thumbs down

    All I see is a ton of wrong with this whole proposal...

    - makes more sense to have a "Swashbuckler" in the Rogue or Fighter tree
    - Bards are still very weak and not very useful past about level 21; this does not help that
    - throwing sonic on some abilities is not really making this synergistic with Bards
    - one handed fighting.... would be cool if there was actually something non-combative to do with the other hand in-game, but there's not
    - just really seems like a complete waste of time when there are so many other avenues for development that players have been waiting and waiting and waiting to see
    - to make this thing powerful enough to compete with THF and TWF (maybe even sword & board), it seems like you'll be opening up avenues for exploitation with weird class combos

    Basically, this just seems like a complete waste of resources.
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  10. #50
    Community Member FuzzyDuck81's Avatar
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    Methinks the devs are fans of OOTS & Elan in particular... if you're not wearing any armour/clothing, do you become invisible?
    I don't mean to come across as unsympathetic - but I am, so I do.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    Isn't exploit weakness a tier 6 ability so you should be able to twist it? And adrenaline is a core ability so you can't twist that. Am I missing something?
    This is an Enhancement Tree, not an Epic Destiny Tree.

    Quote Originally Posted by FuzzyDuck81 View Post
    Methinks the devs are fans of OOTS & Elan in particular... if you're not wearing any armour/clothing, do you become invisible?
    If they were, then they're missing the "Charisma modifier for Damage" part.
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  12. #52
    DDO Trivia Champion alancarp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thumbed_Servant View Post
    You've turned Swashbuckle into a verb! EXCELLENT
    Great minds think alike: that was the FIRST thing I noticed as well.

    As for the tree... I generally like it, though would tweak several things:

    1. Many of the clickies require spell points. Sonic Power is also key here. I would then argue that Swift Strikes should add "When Swashbuckling, you gain +30 spell points and +30 Sonic Spell Power for each Core Ability earned in this tree."
    2. Is there anything more to the final, unfinished sentence in the Prestige core ability? like "and 1% Dodge" perhaps?
    3. Swashbuckling defensive stance core ability: I see this phrase: "Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier that makes it x3 (ignoring other bonuses) and Critical Threat Range that makes it 18-20 (ignoring other bonuses)." I would like to suggest this be replaced by "non-stacking" so that other bonuses could at least take precedence over this, if higher. That would help at epic levels. The wording here seems like there is a hard cap.
    4. Right now, the Tumble skill is a luxury that my Bard cannot afford. The Tier 1 bonus of +1/+2/+3 is rather weak, to be honest, given the focus on the style. Maybe +2/+4/+6?
    5. En Pointe frankly sounds useless to me: 1 single attack - even if a Crit hit - is not significant enough to either pay for or use... especially one costing spell points... and *especially* with a reduced Multiplier.
    6. Elegant Footwork: unless this is passive, I can't see taking this enhancement. The 'small chance' is the kicker. Bracers of Wind have a better ability here.
    7. Combine Dashing Scoundrel with Skirmisher: +7% dodge and the dmg/dblestrike/doubleshot bonuses. For that matter, add in the Orb as well... that's all just... odd.

    Things I like:
    - Sword Dance sounds excellent - almost required.
    - Resonant Arms: likewise.
    - Fast Movement: though I want this to include melee/ranged attack speed.
    - Tier 4 is excellent

    Now here's the real problem: Tier 5... I like it, but...
    If I'm a Bard (yes, I do play one), I don't like having to make the choice of taking Swashbuckler Tier 5 or Spellsinger Tier 5. Both are solid. This, of course, is why I really hate being limited to a single tree for Tier 5 abilities. We'll see what makes it out of the factory for Update 22, but it's a poor thing to have to give up either.

    I guess if I were changing one thing on DDO, I'd give a bonus of 2 additional Action Points per TR'd past life and allow multiple-tree Tier 5 abilities.
    Last edited by alancarp; 04-24-2014 at 01:44 PM.

  13. #53
    Halfling Hero phalaeo's Avatar
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    I'm sorry to say, this looks positively horrible to me. I don't even know how to go about making suggestions to fix this one, all I know is my Bard will not be putting down her ESoS or Thunderforged weapons to try this out if it goes live.

    I'm really disappointed.
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  14. #54
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    Will inspire recklessness be shut off if you go into swashbuckler stance?

  15. #55
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    More in depth:


    Core Abilities

    1 AP, class level 1: Swift Strikes: Passive: +1% Dodge.
    5 AP, class level 3: Swashbuckling: Defensive Stance: You gain 1% Doublestrike and Doubleshot as well as +1 to the Enhancement Bonus of the weapon in your main hand. Swashbuckling requires wielding a Finesseable or Thrown weapon in your main hand, wielding a Buckler or nothing in your off hand, and wearing Light Armor or no armor. (Druids cannot Swashbuckle while in animal forms.) Please add a "Throwing Expertise" Here a la Monk so that someone might actually consider throwing something other than Shuriken with Monk levels
    Passive: In addition, while Swashbuckling, you gain +1 Damage, and the weapon in your main hand gains a Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier that makes it x3 (ignoring other bonuses) and Critical Threat Range that makes it 18-20 (ignoring other bonuses). You can get this threat range basically with Rogue Tier 5 Knife in the Back or whatever for 15-20x3 knives. WIthout about 120% Doubleshot however, it still can't keep up with a Shuriken Thrower with 10k. That's why I say there needs to be a more general Throwing Expertise feat.
    10 AP, class level 6: Uncanny Dodge: You gain the Uncanny Dodge feat. Passive: Swashbuckling grants an additional 1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, and +1 Damage.
    20 AP, class level 12: Panache: While Swashbuckling, you gain +1% Dodge, 1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, +1 Damage, +1 Reflex Saving Throw, and the weapon in your main hand gains an additional +1 to its Enhancement bonus.
    30 AP, class level 18: Roll with the Punches: While Swashbuckling, you gain +5 Insight Bonus to Character Dodge Cap, the Slippery Mind feat, +1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, and +1 Damage.
    41 AP, class level 20: Evasive Maneuvers: +2 CHA, +2 DEX.While Swashbuckling, you gain the Evasion feat, +1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, +1 Damage, and the weapon in your main hand gains an additional +1 to its Enhancement bonus. Evasion should come MUCH sooner. Monk and Rogue Splashes give it at level 2. I suggest moving Evasion to Core 3; Level 6.


    Tier One


    On Your Toes: +1/2/3 Dodge
    Blow By Blow:
    Multiselector: Melee or Thrown Attack: Make an attack with +(1/2/3) critical threat range that deals extra Sonic damage, and reduces your threat with nearby enemies. This sonic damage scales with Spell Power.

    Multiselector: Insults
    Scathing Words: Activate to reduce the Fortitude saves of nearby enemies by 3. (Costs Spell Points, moderate cooldown)
    Cutting Jibes: Activate to reduce the Will saves of nearby enemies by 3. (Costs Spell Points, moderate cooldown)
    Appalling Diatribe: Activate to reduce the Reflex saves of nearby enemies by 3. (Costs Spell Points, moderate cooldown)

    Tavern Shanties: +1/2/3 Bard Songs.
    Limber Up: +(1/2/3) to Balance, Jump, Swim, and Tumble. 3rd Rank: When you Tumble, you gain +3 to saves against traps for 6 seconds. 12 second cooldown.


    Tier Two


    En Pointe: Melee Attack: Make an attack with +4/8/12 critical threat range, but -1 Critical Multiplier. Costs Spell Points to activate. Why would I ever use this?
    Deflect Arrows: You gain the benefits of the Deflect Arrows feat, knocking aside one incoming projectile that would have struck you every 6/4/2 seconds. (Antireq Tempest Deflect Arrows) Many Times yes.
    Aqua Vitae: Gain 3 Temporary Hit Points per Bard Level for 9 seconds. Heal 1d6 HP every two seconds while the temporary hitpoints persist. (Long cooldown). Yes. But bards already can heal themselves fine, this will be a splash for everyone who doesn't self heal and wants to twist out Coccoon. Questionable.
    Sword Dance: While Swashbuckling, when enemies miss you in combat, you deal 1d10/1d12/1d20 Sonic Damage. Scales with Spell Power. (This triggers off of various miss chances, including Dodge, Armor Class, Displacement, etc.) Considering how often my current shuriken build gets missed, this could actually become a reasonable source of damage. Probably too low though. Does it work with Ranged attacks?
    Multiselector:
    Action Boost: Doublestrike: You gain +10/20/30% Action Boost bonus to Doublestrike for 20 seconds. Usable 5 times per rest. Pretty meh. Damage boost is much better as an action boost.
    Action Boost: Doubleshot: You gain +10/20/30% Action Boost bonus to Doubleshot for 20 seconds. Usable 5 times per rest. Damage Boost is still superior. Haste boost is too unless you have less than 10/20/30% Double Strike to begin with.


    Tier Three


    Elegant Footwork: When enemies miss you while Swashbuckling, they have a small chance to be knocked down with no save. Cooldown: 12 seconds. pretty cool, Melee only?
    Swashbuckling Style:
    Dashing Scoundrel: While Swashbuckling with nothing in your off hand, you gain +1 Damage per 5 Character levels and 7% Doublestrike/Doubleshot. Again I don't know why you're stressing throwing being done with no off hand item. What's wrong with off hands for throwers? Is this supposed to be an alternative that's why you're allowing Rune Arms or Orbs or bucklers? I'm pretty skeptical.
    Skirmisher: While Swashbuckling with a Buckler in your off hand, you gain 7% Dodge.
    Arcane Marauder: You can now Swashbuckle with an Orb in your off hand. (Does not count as a Buckler for Buckler-specific abilities). Requires Magical Training.
    Cannoneer: You can now Swashbuckle with a Rune Arm in your off hand. (Does not count as a Buckler for Buckler-specific abilities). Requires Runearm Proficiency.

    Resonant Arms: While Swashbuckling, the Finesseable or Thrown weapon in your main hand deals an additional 2d6/4d6/6d6 Sonic Damage on critical hits.This Sonic damage scales with spellpower. Awesome
    Fast Movement: You run faster. Additional Bard levels increases the speed bonus. Awesome
    CHA/DEX


    Tier Four


    On the Mark: Passive +1/2/3 to attack rolls to confirm critical hits and damage on critical hits (before weapon multipliers) Even with a 15-20 Critx3 this is equal to 3 damage x3 multi =9 damage x 30% Crit chance = 3 Damage per hit. It's OK, not terrible for a fast thrower.
    Multiselector: Swashbuckling Style II
    Slap in the Face: While Swashbuckling and wielding nothing in your off hand, activate to deal 1 Bludgeon damage. Damaged enemies can't cast spells for 3/6/9 seconds and are stunned for one second (Perform + d20 saves for the Stun). 18 second cooldown. Costs 10 Spell Points. 18 second cooldown for a 1 second stun? Useless. And it requires melee range I assume so just all around dumb. You'd be better off just not interrupting your swings to use it from a DPS perspective. Make the stun at least 3 seconds and the cooldown 5 seconds.
    Low Blow: While Swashbuckling and wielding a Buckler in your off hand, activate to perform a shield bash with +2 Critical Threat Range and Multiplier. On hit, briefly knock down affected enemy (Perform + d20 saves for the Knockdown). Costs 10 Spell Points. Fine I guess
    Loud & Clear:Toggle: While Swashbuckling with an Orb in your off hand, +10 Sonic Spell Power. Seriously? This is a Tier 4? It's useless
    Tune Arm/Music Box: Toggle: While Swashbuckling with a Rune Arm in your off hand, your Rune Arm Weapon Imbue deals an additional 1d6 Sonic damage. Ok I guess

    Battering Barrage: (2 AP, 2 ranks) While Swashbuckling, critical hits inflict Destruction/Improved Destruction.
    Wind at my Back: +1 to the Enhancement Bonus of your equipped Throwing Weapons, plus an additional +1 for every five Bard levels. To low. Double it.
    CHA/DEX


    Tier Five


    Thread the Needle: While Swashbuckling, +5 Damage while the Precision feat is active. Pretty Awesome. Wish it wasn't Tier 5 though. Should be Tier 1 and +1 Damage and each Tier in this PC should allow another +1 damage while in Precision, with this Tier 5 adding another 3 or 4 for a total of +7 or 8. This is a Tier 5 for Pete's sake.
    Exploit Weaknesses:While Swashbuckling, every time you damage an enemy but do not critically hit, you gain a stacking +1 Insight Bonus to Critical Threat Range until you successfully critically hit. This is actually pretty awesome, especially for a high throw rate build.

  16. #56
    Community Member Grimlock's Avatar
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    Wow you guys are really hard on them for this. Remember - this is a draft not even on Lam yet.

    Swashbuckler are precision based fighters - adding lots of doublestrike makes sense. Adding evasion is our gateway to evasion being added to other classes and is awesome. Bards needed *something* and this is a great start that has a lot of potential.

    I agree there is a lot of fluff in there with skills, spellpower, and tier 4/5 abilities that need further boosting. It is better than we had before and opens up the door for melee based bards not sucking as much as they do now.
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  17. #57
    The Hatchery Mryal's Avatar
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    Allright.Its starting to look like i may go back to bard, wich was my favorite class for several years, until the undermess came and this became a new game.First of all, you guys promissed capstones better than evasion, not capstones that ARE evasion.Add evasion on the 12th core and Imp evasion on capstone.

    Second, DPS on this is mediocre at best, but then again, without seeing the one handed feats its impossible to tell.Dodge bonuses are good stuff, but we're missing saves bonuses, evasion with low saves is still worthless.One more thing, a dex to damage or CHa to damage is missing.Bards cant afford to go on a non human race and lose a feat to get that, and if the goal is doing dps while on a defensive stance wich will block all of the several rage bonuses to STR it has to be dex or cha for damage.

    Overall this suplements a CHA focused spellsinger well, giving survival bonuses that are much needed and some way to be a little less pathetic in melee.It does not supports warchanter based bards but then again who in their sane mind would make a warchanter based bard?

    Some suggestions : Remove thrower based enhancements.Thrower + bard is a bad idea,you can hardy do damage with conventional weapons alredy.They will just take slots of things that could be more usefull, like + saves passive boosts or +dex/cha damage i mentioned.Swashbuckling (what a strange term no?) with a rune arm is a step on the right direction for build diversity, also with orbs.But the orb bonus is horrible, switch to +1 Spell DCs or Spell Pen.

    Some things that others alredy suggested, Insults has to be passive aura style, and that -1 multiplier on En Pointe has to go.

    Resonant Arms : This is another step in the right direction, in fact, this is the KEY enhancement of the whole tree, direct conversion of spellpower into melee damage is peraphs the only way to make a reasonable DPS on a bard.Make it adjustable damage per bard level and proc on ALL hits instead of critical hits.

    Both tier 5's are good.But theres room for another one there.Peraphs dex or cha to damage.

    Wording on the swashbuckling 'Passive' is absolutly confusing.What happens if we have a weapon equiped that has x4 multiplier but 19-20 threat range? How does the system tells what crit profile is 'better'.Or does it simply replaces anything you put in there no matter what.Also, how does it interact with keen/imp crit?

    Side Note : Take this oportunity to review the other trees.Specialy warchanter wich is a (bad) joke atm.
    Last edited by Mryal; 04-24-2014 at 01:41 PM.
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  18. #58

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    I see some very interesting stuff that can be twisted. Personally I can only really see something like a bard or rogue using this, most other classes are str based (for melee) and won't really use finessable weapons. Maybe add a feature where you can use any 1 handed weapon instead o finessable and you can't use anything in your off hand? And instead of rune arm, add a dagger option instead (although this would be an awesome opportunity for adding a hand crossbow). While using finessable weapons seems okay, many of the atypical pirate weapons where everything from boat hooks, axes and cutlasses. Very few pirates used rapiers.

    To me it seems that this is a missed opportunity to add Bluckler, dagger, dirk, grenades and hand fire weapons as secondary hand weapons while using approved main hand weapon. I understand that you guys are limited to correct engine and development time adding clearly new type of coding. But this screams for a swashbuckling Errol Flynn with a cutlass in one hand and a repeating hand crossbow or something in the off hand or even a grenade. Like a sonic grenade - a tier 2-3 ability that you can throw during combat with a cool down.

    I guess I'm thinking pirate themed here.

  19. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by FuzzyDuck81 View Post
    Methinks the devs are fans of OOTS & Elan in particular... if you're not wearing any armour/clothing, do you become invisible?
    yes much like Rangers are now Drizzt and assasins are Artemis Enteri, the swashbuckler is built around a very narrow view of the world.

    If they were going to copy a character this one would have been much better

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  20. #60
    Self-Appointed Coin Lord of the Seas ForgettableNPC's Avatar
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    I personally think the Cannoneer part of the Swashbuckling Style should just give you Runearm Proficiency Feat automatically (Or have the Runearm Proficiency as an actual, trainable feat by the next update, in the least).

    Otherwise, you're forced to take two levels in Artificer to get the Rune Arm Use.

    Think we could have the Enhancements give us more Armor Class, as well? Since the Swashbuckler, apparently, is focused around dodging while inflicting blows, an increase in Armor Class seems to be needed, not just huge buffs in dodge.
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