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  1. #101
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    I don't know if you work or not, but I'll be honest with you, if HR got a complaint about you using this word, IF they believed your intent was innocent you would get a little message or sit down where they tried to explain to you that "It is phonetically too similar to a racial slur to be of acceptable use around the company or with your co-workers", this would pretty much just be a warning. If you then started this little dog and pony show about people are ignorant and that the word is fine, you would be fired.

    You pretty much lost the "Innocent" motive when you started to go down the "People are ignorant" path.
    Oh my gosh... Wrongful Dismissal, Labour Board, Lawsuit, Cha-ching, Retire.

    You had a couple good points earlier on, but your wheels have come off, dude. Time to pack it in.
    Quote Originally Posted by Towrn
    ...when the worst thing that happens when you make a mistake at your job is someone complains on the internet, you probably care a little less!

  2. #102
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    Of course. The OP and a few others are merely here to watch the conversations of two very similarly spelled and sounding words, one not offensive and one knowingly offensive spiral into a mess on the weekends. The reasonable action in real life in a place of employment would be to file a complaint against a co-worker/boss etc. who insisted on "playing with words" such as the two words everyone knows we are talking about. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 bans harassment of this very kind in the workplace, and I've seen others sue (and win) based on real life commentary very similar to whats used in the several threads on this topic. "Intent" is everything.
    So based on what you're saying, people shouldn't make posts that are reasonable and not offensive in their own right if those posts would offend unreasonable people?
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  3. #103
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    Oh my gosh... Wrongful Dismissal, Labour Board, Lawsuit, Cha-ching, Retire.

    You had a couple good points earlier on, but your wheels have come off, dude. Time to pack it in.
    I don't know if you are American or not, maybe you're not if you think this way, but all companies provide almost all employees with an "At Will" employment contract. This contract means that you can quit at any time for any reason or no reason at all with or without any warning, it is protected right for the employee so that an employer can't force you to come to work if you don't want to. On the flip side of that, the "at will" contract also means the Company can fire you at any time for any reason or no reason at all, with or without any warning.

    "You're just not fitting in here" is enough of a reason to fire you, and there is not a thing you can do about it, beyond maybe... collect unemployment.

    Now, if they want to be mean, They can claim that you made a coworker feel threatened, or that you were insubordinate with management.. kiss your job and possibly your unemployment goodbye for that one, as Unemployment is normally reserved for people who were let go on good terms.

    So I have no idea where your pipe dreams come from about retiring off getting fired, but, cling man .. cling.

    Note: You don't actually have to sign an at-will contract, the basic employment contract will typically state "So-n-So's an At-Will employer" and upon signing that, you accept the terms and conditions of being at-will. There might be a description of what that is somewhere on the contract, normally on the back, maybe in the handbook, or pile of papers they give you, or maybe posted in the break room, or some place visible, next to the OSHA, EoE Workman's Comp, Etc, posters, if you want to read it, and since you think this way, you might want to stop and read it someday.
    Last edited by Ungood; 04-20-2014 at 11:24 PM. Reason: added the Note:

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    I don't know if you work or not, but I'll be honest with you, if HR got a complaint about you using this word, IF they believed your intent was innocent you would get a little message or sit down where they tried to explain to you that "It is phonetically too similar to a racial slur to be of acceptable use around the company or with your co-workers", this would pretty much just be a warning. If you then started this little dog and pony show about people are ignorant and that the word is fine, you would be fired.

    You pretty much lost the "Innocent" motive when you started to go down the "People are ignorant" path.
    That "ignorance" was directed at your assumption that because synonyms exist, there is no valid case for using the word at all. Seems like rather than refute the point, you'd rather point fingers and judge me in addition to the OP. Problem is, you aren't HR and I question your motives. The word is not a racial slur and should not be treated as one. Over the top PC sensitivity went to far on this one and you are getting push back.

  5. #105
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    I don't know if you are American or not, maybe you're not if you think this way, but all companies provide almost all employees with an "At Will" employment contract. This contract means that you can quit at any time for any reason or no reason at all with or without any warning, it is protected right for the employee so that an employer can't force you to come to work if you don't want to. On the flip side of that, the "at will" contract also means the Company can fire you at any time for any reason or no reason at all, with or without any warning.

    "You're just not fitting in here" is enough of a reason to fire you, and there is not a thing you can do about it, beyond maybe... collect unemployment.

    Now, if they want to be mean, They can claim that you made a coworker feel threatened, or that you were insubordinate with management.. kiss your job and your unemployment goodbye.

    So I have no idea where your pipe dreams come from about retiring off getting fired, but, cling man .. cling.
    Yup, must be an American thing, and I can't say I'm too surprised. In the rest of the free world, you can't be fired 'at will'. The whole idea of that seems to me to be a human rights violation. How can a person develop a feeling of trust working for a company that can fire him at any time for no reason whatsoever? That's an inherently hostile work environment. In Canada we have laws against that sort of thing. Getting fired because "you don't fit in" would result in a Wrongful Dismissal suit. Getting fired for using a perfectly valid word that happens to offend some ignorant person would too. That means lost wages, emotional distress, any number of other little claims.
    Quote Originally Posted by Towrn
    ...when the worst thing that happens when you make a mistake at your job is someone complains on the internet, you probably care a little less!

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Note: You don't actually have to sign an at-will contract, the basic employment contract will typically state "So-n-So's an At-Will employer" and upon signing that, you accept the terms and conditions of being at-will. There might be a description of what that is somewhere on the contract, normally on the back, maybe in the handbook, or pile of papers they give you, or maybe posted in the break room, or some place visible, next to the OSHA, EoE Workman's Comp, Etc, posters, if you want to read it, and since you think this way, you might want to stop and read it someday.
    You can still be sued, it is not a guaranteed win, especially if there was nonsense like what you have spouted in this thread. Even if you win the lawsuit, the company still gets bad PR, legal expenses and would most likely settle and "at-will" the silly HR person.

  7. #107
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    You can still be sued, it is not a guaranteed win, especially if there was nonsense like what you have spouted in this thread. Even if you win the lawsuit, the company still gets bad PR, legal expenses and would most likely settle and "at-will" the silly HR person.
    LOL. Are you for real? You don't have a leg to stand on, there is no "Freedom of Speech" on company time, and if you want to keep your job, you do what your told, like it, love it, hate it. If you brought them to court, you would lose, and any lawyer dumb enough to take this up would ask for cash upfront. After they raked you over the coals you would be left to pay all the fees, which if you're a middle class American, would amount to little more then what your house is worth, and you would be saddled with a horrible reputation as a "problem" employee that most companies would not want to touch.

    Now, if you were high enough up the food chain to have the cash on hand to fling at frivolous lawsuits like that, there is a good chance you would not do it anyway, you would take the dismissal on the chin with a smile, ask for a recommendation for your next job as you walked out the door, and grow up some before starting your next job.

  8. #108
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    Yup, must be an American thing, and I can't say I'm too surprised. In the rest of the free world, you can't be fired 'at will'. The whole idea of that seems to me to be a human rights violation. How can a person develop a feeling of trust working for a company that can fire him at any time for no reason whatsoever? That's an inherently hostile work environment. In Canada we have laws against that sort of thing. Getting fired because "you don't fit in" would result in a Wrongful Dismissal suit. Getting fired for using a perfectly valid word that happens to offend some ignorant person would too. That means lost wages, emotional distress, any number of other little claims.
    Well, Maybe in Canada, that kinda stuff flies, but, in the Stats, sorry dude, you don't get to call your co-workers ignorant and tell them to suck it up and you will say whatever you want to say, be damned how it makes them feel.

  9. #109
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Well, Maybe in Canada, that kinda stuff flies, but, in the Stats, sorry dude, you don't get to call your co-workers ignorant and tell them to suck it up and you will say whatever you want to say, be damned how it makes them feel.
    Just like in Canada you can't say to your boss, hey, that guy said a word that's not a bad word, but I THOUGHT it was a bad word and it hurt my itty bitty feewings and now he won't even say sorry and you need to fire him.

    Meh, I think we're at irreconcilable differences at this point. Just fundamentally too far apart. I'll keep on using words that are not inherently offensive and deal with the petulant objections of the ignorant as they arise. You keep censoring yourself in an attempt to avoid offending anyone and still deal with the petulant objections of the ignorant you didn't anticipate. First one to heaven wins.
    Quote Originally Posted by Towrn
    ...when the worst thing that happens when you make a mistake at your job is someone complains on the internet, you probably care a little less!

  10. #110
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    In Canada we have laws against that sort of thing. Getting fired because "you don't fit in" would result in a Wrongful Dismissal suit. Getting fired for using a perfectly valid word that happens to offend some ignorant person would too.
    Here is how it would end in the states:

    The Lawyers and HR department would say: "we received several complaints that he was using a word that sounded similar to a racial slur, these employees expressed that it made the feel uncomfortable that he was using this word. We explained to him that this word had a phonetic similarity to a very derogatory racial slur and would no longer be allowed for acceptable use on company time or company grounds, he began a tirade of insults belittling his co-workers calling them among other things, ignorant, and expressed complete refusal to refrain from using this word that he knew would make his coworkers feel undue duress. He made it clear that he would refuse to heed our company policy, and expressed that he should have zero responsibility promoting a productive safe and comfortable working environment, thus we had to terminate his employment"

    There is nothing you're going to do with that, a Judge would throw that out and laugh at you and may even fine you for frivolous lawsuits in the Stats.

  11. #111
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    Just like in Canada you can't say to your boss, hey, that guy said a word that's not a bad word, but I THOUGHT it was a bad word and it hurt my itty bitty feewings and now he won't even say sorry and you need to fire him.

    Meh, I think we're at irreconcilable differences at this point. Just fundamentally too far apart. I'll keep on using words that are not inherently offensive and deal with the petulant objections of the ignorant as they arise. You keep censoring yourself in an attempt to avoid offending anyone and still deal with the petulant objections of the ignorant you didn't anticipate. First one to heaven wins.
    Now see in the States, this would get you fired. Unwillingness to be a team player or promote a safe and comfortable working environment. Derogatory commentary about co-workers, and dismissal of request by management to be respectful to your fellow workers and clients, would just be the openers, or door closers as the case may be.

    You would never hold a job with that attitude in the stats, but then again, that might explain why American is a main superpower in the word, we don't put with that kind of self adsorbed petulant ******** by anyone.

  12. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    In the rest of the free world, you can't be fired 'at will'.
    Sure you can. It's all in the wording. In UK employment law, an employer is not expected to prove that the alleged misconduct had definitely occurred. To be able to justify the dismissal as being "fair", it has to show that it had conducted a "reasonable investigation", followed "a fair procedure" and held "a genuine belief" that the employee was guilty. There's a few extra steps... but if you break the company policies, and their "will" is to have you gone, you are most likely gone.


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  13. #113
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    I think a lot of people have illusions on how secure their job is, if you live in a free country, where companies are autonomous, which is most if not all industrial countries in the world, if they want to get rid of you, they will get rid of you.

  14. #114
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    That "ignorance" was directed at your assumption that because synonyms exist, there is no valid case for using the word at all. Seems like rather than refute the point, you'd rather point fingers and judge me in addition to the OP. Problem is, you aren't HR and I question your motives. The word is not a racial slur and should not be treated as one. Over the top PC sensitivity went to far on this one and you are getting push back.
    Are you really saying that a better would could not have been used to avoid the whole situation, don't be ridiculous. Lets be honest, it was used, and then defended, to build this whole thing up.

    You were played, so was I, but hey, that's what a good troll is all about.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    I don't know if you work or not, but I'll be honest with you, if HR got a complaint about you using this word, IF they believed your intent was innocent you would get a little message or sit down where they tried to explain to you that "It is phonetically too similar to a racial slur to be of acceptable use around the company or with your co-workers", this would pretty much just be a warning. If you then started this little dog and pony show about people are ignorant and that the word is fine, you would be fired.

    You pretty much lost the "Innocent" motive when you started to go down the "People are ignorant" path.
    Are you saying that the intent behind my original post is retroactively changed by trying to solve the problem presented by those who objected to it in the first place?

    There was a process I went through to try to understand why it was such a problem in the first place. There were a few who objected to it, more who defended it, and others who simply addressed the topic of the thread. Also, there is the possibility I took this too personally when certain posters claimed I said this or that about it when I never even went off-topic in that thread. Anyway, when I got done with my schoolwork, I developed a plan to fix the problem.

    1) Define the problem. Some people object to my use of the word "niggardly". Why?
    -- Hypothesis 1. I do not know what the word means (ignorance).
    -- Hypothesis 2. They do not know what the word means (ignorance).
    -- Hypothesis 3. They know what the word means, and they are trolling (malice).

    2) Determine a solution.
    -- Solution 1. How do I fix my ignorance? Education. Research the word, and determine whether there exists an offensive definition or usage.
    -- Solution 2. How do I fix their ignorance? Education. Provide a summary of the results of my research in an Off Topic thread.
    -- Solution 3. How do I fix their trolling? Undefined.

    3) Implement solutions.
    -- Results 1. No offensive meanings found (original or adapted). A handful of "controversies" concerning usage were discovered, but they were too diffuse in place, time, and result to be significant, as well as presenting an inadequate sample size.
    -- Results 2. Uncertain. I cannot tell whether anyone who once believed "niggardly" was a racial slur now knows it to be free of offensive meaning, or if they even care.
    -- Results 3. Unattainable.
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  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    Are you saying that the intent behind my original post is retroactively changed by trying to solve the problem presented by those who objected to it in the first place?

    There was a process I went through to try to understand why it was such a problem in the first place. There were a few who objected to it, more who defended it, and others who simply addressed the topic of the thread. Also, there is the possibility I took this too personally when certain posters claimed I said this or that about it when I never even went off-topic in that thread. Anyway, when I got done with my schoolwork, I developed a plan to fix the problem.

    1) Define the problem. Some people object to my use of the word "niggardly". Why?
    -- Hypothesis 1. I do not know what the word means (ignorance).
    -- Hypothesis 2. They do not know what the word means (ignorance).
    -- Hypothesis 3. They know what the word means, and they are trolling (malice).

    2) Determine a solution.
    -- Solution 1. How do I fix my ignorance? Education. Research the word, and determine whether there exists an offensive definition or usage.
    -- Solution 2. How do I fix their ignorance? Education. Provide a summary of the results of my research in an Off Topic thread.
    -- Solution 3. How do I fix their trolling? Undefined.

    3) Implement solutions.
    -- Results 1. No offensive meanings found (original or adapted). A handful of "controversies" concerning usage were discovered, but they were too diffuse in place, time, and result to be significant, as well as presenting an inadequate sample size.
    -- Results 2. Uncertain. I cannot tell whether anyone who once believed "niggardly" was a racial slur now knows it to be free of offensive meaning, or if they even care.
    -- Results 3. Unattainable.
    Your mistake was presuming rationality on the part of every reader. Take it from a programmer: People are far too messy to predict with pure rationality.

    Again, a rational individual would read the original thread title and come to one of two conclusions:
    1) Sincere meaning, and go from there, ignoring the word choice.
    2) Trolling, and refuse to feed it. Again ignoring the word choice.

    Unfortunately, that does leave one dealing with folks less likely to rigidly enforce their own behavior in terms of pure logic, and that does make up a sizable portion of the populous at large. That leaves you with 3 choices:
    1) Apologize regardless of your intent. (Take this route, and you'll be doing it forever.)
    2) Engage emotion with reason, or more emotion. (See point 1)
    3) Carry on with the conversation despite the interjections. (aka: Life's rough, get a helmet.)

  17. #117
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    Synonym Discussion of STINGY

    Stingy, close, niggardly, parsimonious, penurious, miserly mean being unwilling or showing unwillingness to share with others. Stingy implies a marked lack of generosity <a stingy child, not given to sharing>. Close suggests keeping a tight grip on one's money and possessions <folks who are very close when charity calls>. Niggardly implies giving or spending the very smallest amount possible <the niggardly amount budgeted for the town library>. Parsimonious suggests a frugality so extreme as to lead to stinginess <a parsimonious lifestyle notably lacking in luxuries>. Penurious implies niggardliness that gives an appearance of actual poverty <the penurious eccentric bequeathed a fortune>. Miserly suggests a sordid avariciousness and a morbid pleasure in hoarding <a miserly couple devoid of social conscience>. (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/stingy)

    Given these descriptions, I wonder which one best fits a discussion on the rarity of stat tome drops.

    If nothing else, I learned a lot from these discussions. In trying to find the best way to solve a problem, I did a lot of research in directions I hadn't yet taken.
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  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scraap View Post
    Your mistake was presuming rationality on the part of every reader. Take it from a programmer: People are far too messy to predict with pure rationality.

    Again, a rational individual would read the original thread title and come to one of two conclusions:
    1) Sincere meaning, and go from there, ignoring the word choice.
    2) Trolling, and refuse to feed it. Again ignoring the word choice.

    Unfortunately, that does leave one dealing with folks less likely to rigidly enforce their own behavior in terms of pure logic, and that does make up a sizable portion of the populous at large. That leaves you with 3 choices:
    1) Apologize regardless of your intent. (Take this route, and you'll be doing it forever.)
    2) Engage emotion with reason, or more emotion. (See point 1)
    3) Carry on with the conversation despite the interjections. (aka: Life's rough, get a helmet.)
    I think you are right. Problem definition FAIL.

    I was trying to follow #3, but someone I liked included a comment in a PM that "It seems clear that your intention has been to provoke from the start", and my heart just sank. I think that is when I was sure I had to fix it and prove I wasn't trolling, but I don't seem to have done a very good job of it.
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  19. #119
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    Obvious troll thread is obvious
    and the white knights jumping on it are ridiculous.

    If you meant to educate people, you would have left after the thread starter (because it explained the word), you didn't have to reply to everyone who disagreed with you to generate more responses and blow this out of proportion.
    Last edited by Ykt; 04-21-2014 at 04:59 AM.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ykt View Post
    Obvious troll thread is obvious
    and the white knights jumping on it are ridiculous.

    If you meant to educate people, you would have left after the thread starter (because it explained the word), you didn't have to reply to everyone who disagreed with you to generate more responses and blow this out of proportion.
    You are wrong about the troll, but perhaps you are right about leaving after the initial post. I guess my thinking was that, as the OP, I should be available for open discussion rather than just hit-and-run. A couple of my cousins think you guys are just being jerks, but the oldest one says it's probably a dialect mismatch. I really don't even care about the word issue so much; it's the false assumptions and accusations I am trying to counter, but it just seems to get worse.

    I get that some people might use certain words to bug other people. Is it any different to accuse someone without knowing their intent?
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