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  1. #21
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Default Make a wish, DOO style:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dorian View Post
    Why didn't they just stick to this simple design/balance principle that all capstone should be as good as evasion.
    Because it's not actually that simple? To make Evasion transition from nifty to uber, you have to build for it. Toss evasion onto any build that wares (medium/heavy) armor, or has a moderate to poor reflex save and Evasion will be meh. Balancing around the huge variety of build possibilities is a nightmare job and I don't envy the Devs even a little bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dorian View Post
    I think this would solve 90% of the staying pure balance problems currently in the game.
    Remember that other thread that's been circulating for a while now? The "Make a wish DDO style" one? Here ya go:

    Player: "I wish all capstones were as good as Evasion!"

    Dev: "Granted! Evasion has been removed from Rogue, Monk and Ranger low level class abilities; and added to all classes capstones!" Thus making it so evasion is attainable by every class, but only if built pure. Bwa-ha-ha.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow - btw, do you have change for 10 million population?

  2. #22
    Community Member Nestroy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacobius View Post
    Master's Blitz is not a capstone, it is a ED epic moment. A capstone is a last tier core enhancement you can get at lvl 20 by only going pure in a class which is why there were suppose to be as good or better then evasion giving a reason to have to choose between going pure or splash for evasion.
    "Better than Evasion"?

    - Doubles the DPS output.
    - Makes you save any trap or spell.
    - Makes you deathwarded and immune to all poison and diseases?
    - Makes the toon fly (like Rocket Boots or even better, like Fly Spell)?
    - Makes the instakilling enhancements, items and feats do the trick again and for mobs beyond 1000 hit points?

    I would settle for giving Evasion, actually...

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacobius View Post
    Master's Blitz is not a capstone, it is a ED epic moment. A capstone is a last tier core enhancement you can get at lvl 20 by only going pure in a class which is why there were suppose to be as good or better then evasion giving a reason to have to choose between going pure or splash for evasion.
    Yeah, I know. Troll said he didn't want power creep in capstones, I busted out the hyperbole, conceding we don't need something similarly crazy like Master's Blitz as a capstone, but they need to be better than they are.

  4. #24
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rimble View Post
    I agree with that too, but seriously, some of the capstones essentially provide nothing more than +2 Stat. So ok, maybe Master's Blitz shouldn't be a capstone...but MANY of them need to do more. Preferably something relatively unique.
    +2 Stat - one DC - would be a reasonable trade-off IF we weren't seeing such insanely stupid spell-damage.

  5. #25
    Community Member Gauthaag's Avatar
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    u re not forced to go pure class. making optimal build is more difficult than going pure - same way as specifically tweaked car would be better for its purpose then stock car. So its right u get more powerful toon when multiclassing. Or more gimped one when it s done wrong - nothing is easier than build MC gimp


    (well, the fact we have ton of cookiecutter toons in game is other thing)

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Power creep = bad.
    But what's power creep? Goes back to the balance thread. If you boost "X", but it's still worse than "Y", is that really power creep? Not to me. In order to be true creep, the best have to get better, as opposed to the current-worse-off closing the gap somewhat. So any specific proposal should bear that in mind.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gauthaag View Post
    u re not forced to go pure class. making optimal build is more difficult than going pure - same way as specifically tweaked car would be better for its purpose then stock car. So its right u get more powerful toon when multiclassing. Or more gimped one when it s done wrong - nothing is easier than build MC gimp


    (well, the fact we have ton of cookiecutter toons in game is other thing)
    Not really. The best builds in the game are common knowledge and easy to replicate and to play. They are significantly better than level 20 pure characters - we aren't talking about slight advantages.

    All we are doing is giving advantages to people that are building cookie-cutter multi-class builds instead of pure level 20 characters. It makes no sense at all.
    CC Casting Druid: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...C-Summer-Build
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    Several characters on Sarlona all starting with "Rand" in the Guild "Guardians of House Cannith". My main four characters are Randowl (20 Warlock EA DPS Build), Randslar (Bard 14 / Fighter 4 / Rogue 2 Swashbuckler), Randek (Druid CC Caster 17/Fvs 3) and Randomall (Rogue 20 assassin).

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    But what's power creep? Goes back to the balance thread. If you boost "X", but it's still worse than "Y", is that really power creep? Not to me. In order to be true creep, the best have to get better, as opposed to the current-worse-off closing the gap somewhat. So any specific proposal should bear that in mind.
    Agreed completely. The power creep is already there. All you would be doing by boosting capstones is bringing pure level 20 characters closer to the same level multi-class characters are already. Nerfing multi-classing is a much worse alternative.
    CC Casting Druid: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...C-Summer-Build
    Shiradi Wiz Plan for 1st Lifers: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...r-First-Lifers
    LE Capable Int Assassin - U29: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...Assassin-Build
    Warlock DC Caster: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ld-Blast-Build

    Several characters on Sarlona all starting with "Rand" in the Guild "Guardians of House Cannith". My main four characters are Randowl (20 Warlock EA DPS Build), Randslar (Bard 14 / Fighter 4 / Rogue 2 Swashbuckler), Randek (Druid CC Caster 17/Fvs 3) and Randomall (Rogue 20 assassin).

  9. #29
    Community Member Kalimah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryethielnas View Post
    Evasion is not the only lovely little thing you get with that Monk splash.
    I'll even go further to say that not only evasion is why we are splashing now. A lot of enhancements open up with only a few levls of that class. Some of that is prty gnarly.
    The blade itself incites to deeds of violence.
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    Agreed completely. The power creep is already there. All you would be doing by boosting capstones is bringing pure level 20 characters closer to the same level multi-class characters are already. Nerfing multi-classing is a much worse alternative.
    We don't ask for a super uber mega capstone....we just want the capstone to be worth something. That's completely different. And agian, that is not a nerf to multiclass..it's just a boost to pure.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanhooger View Post
    We don't ask for a super uber mega capstone....we just want the capstone to be worth something. That's completely different. And agian, that is not a nerf to multiclass..it's just a boost to pure.
    I totally agree - it's needed.
    CC Casting Druid: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...C-Summer-Build
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    Warlock DC Caster: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ld-Blast-Build

    Several characters on Sarlona all starting with "Rand" in the Guild "Guardians of House Cannith". My main four characters are Randowl (20 Warlock EA DPS Build), Randslar (Bard 14 / Fighter 4 / Rogue 2 Swashbuckler), Randek (Druid CC Caster 17/Fvs 3) and Randomall (Rogue 20 assassin).

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanhooger View Post
    We don't ask for a super uber mega capstone....we just want the capstone to be worth something. That's completely different. And agian, that is not a nerf to multiclass..it's just a boost to pure.
    Sorry to say it, but Evasion (when built to nearly no-fail) is super uber mega - it's what lets some (many?) toons laugh at EE casters elemental spells and consider disabling traps a waste of time. <- and that is what all capstones are being asked to equate to.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow - btw, do you have change for 10 million population?

  13. #33
    Community Member Vanhooger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Sorry to say it, but Evasion (when built to nearly no-fail) is super uber mega - it's what lets some (many?) toons laugh at EE casters elemental spells and consider disabling traps a waste of time. <- and that is what all capstones are being asked to equate to.
    I agree, but bear in mind that multiclassing need to be at least bit more powerful, that's why DDO > any other mmo(for me). They need to give a non evasion toon a way to reduce the massive elemental (not using the absurd block) damage on EE(double dragon raid i'm looking at you).

    As it is now, evasion do make the difference...I'm playing pure sorc, and I know that..perfectly
    Last edited by Vanhooger; 04-17-2014 at 12:37 PM.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanhooger View Post
    but bear in mind that multiclassing need to be at least bit more powerful,
    Uh no - not really. That is limiting choices as much as just having only pure classes would. You should be able to build a solid character whether you choose 1 class, 2 classes or 3 classes.

    The existing scenario where pure classes are so far behind multi-class characters is really bad for the game and should be corrected. People shouldn't have a built-in character nerf because they prefer to play a level 20 character with one class. That is just crazy talk.
    CC Casting Druid: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...C-Summer-Build
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    Several characters on Sarlona all starting with "Rand" in the Guild "Guardians of House Cannith". My main four characters are Randowl (20 Warlock EA DPS Build), Randslar (Bard 14 / Fighter 4 / Rogue 2 Swashbuckler), Randek (Druid CC Caster 17/Fvs 3) and Randomall (Rogue 20 assassin).

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanhooger View Post
    I agree, but bear in mind that multiclassing need to be at least bit more powerful, that's why DDO > any other mmo(for me). They need to give a non evasion toon a way to reduce the massive elemental (not using the absurd block) damage on EE(double dragon raid i'm looking at you).

    As it is now, evasion do make the difference...I'm playing pure sorc, and I know that..perfectly
    The fact that capstones suck penalizes casters the most because they need to be pure for casting purposes.

  16. #36
    Community Member Seikojin's Avatar
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    They easily could offer capstone enhancement boosts, so if you take a capstone, it would boost selected enhancements by 1 additional tier. Or offer bonuses for specific enhancements selected (like taking any savant capstone will give you the elemental boosted crit chance if you have the enhancement for that pre).

  17. #37
    Community Member Noctus's Avatar
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    Several people here treat Evasion as if it came together with a No-Fail-Ref-Save. Evasion is literally (and when i say literally i mean it literally) useless if you fail your save.

    But they want to "balance capstones" on this implicit assumption. But to get an excellent Ref-Save is the result of the other 18 levels of the build and their "power", and not the result of Evasion. The excellent Ref-Save alone would already get rid of nearly 50% of all spell damage.
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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Sorry to say it, but Evasion (when built to nearly no-fail) is super uber mega - it's what lets some (many?) toons laugh at EE casters elemental spells and consider disabling traps a waste of time. <- and that is what all capstones are being asked to equate to.
    This - should be repeated slowly for all the devs to scribe. Gear and skill for saves and Evasion is a monster. Even w/o the Pally splash (which helps, ofc).

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctus View Post
    Several people here treat Evasion as if it came together with a No-Fail-Ref-Save. Evasion is literally (and when i say literally i mean it literally) useless if you fail your save.

    But they want to "balance capstones" on this implicit assumption. But to get an excellent Ref-Save is the result of the other 18 levels of the build and their "power", and not the result of Evasion. The excellent Ref-Save alone would already get rid of nearly 50% of all spell damage.
    That´s where the Pally comes handy. Fun apart, since we are talking about capstones here, a capstone to set off the power gain from 2 monk / 2 pally on a Char specced toon would have to be something near-to gamebreaking uber. That´s the reallity. So either they give the capstones something like Phantasmal Killer, DC 60 + total level + stat, or they will not give something nearly as balanced as the monk 2 / pally 2 Char saver. Or a Rog 2 dex reflex monster... Sad but true.
    Last edited by Nestroy; 04-17-2014 at 01:07 PM.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    +2 Stat - one DC - would be a reasonable trade-off IF we weren't seeing such insanely stupid spell-damage.
    Eh, not for me, but we all have our own preferences.

    ...and excluding the poor FvS who get +2 Cha or +2 Con. Freakin' losers.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noctus View Post
    Several people here treat Evasion as if it came together with a No-Fail-Ref-Save. Evasion is literally (and when i say literally i mean it literally) useless if you fail your save.

    But they want to "balance capstones" on this implicit assumption. But to get an excellent Ref-Save is the result of the other 18 levels of the build and their "power", and not the result of Evasion. The excellent Ref-Save alone would already get rid of nearly 50% of all spell damage.
    2 levels of monk gives you evasion + 2 useful feats + access to some nice enhancements. Getting a high save isn't the hard part - evasion is - because you can only get that with 2 levels of monk, 2 levels of rogue or 8 levels of ranger. There are so many ways to get a high save.
    CC Casting Druid: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...C-Summer-Build
    Shiradi Wiz Plan for 1st Lifers: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...r-First-Lifers
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    Warlock DC Caster: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ld-Blast-Build

    Several characters on Sarlona all starting with "Rand" in the Guild "Guardians of House Cannith". My main four characters are Randowl (20 Warlock EA DPS Build), Randslar (Bard 14 / Fighter 4 / Rogue 2 Swashbuckler), Randek (Druid CC Caster 17/Fvs 3) and Randomall (Rogue 20 assassin).

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