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  1. #161
    Founder & Hero cdbd3rd's Avatar
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    nvm.

    Thread is sliding down a slope, and I'm stepping out while the stepping is good.
    Last edited by cdbd3rd; 04-17-2014 at 06:48 PM.
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  2. #162
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    I see some concerns about your proposals: By enacting a "forgiveness" system, we also essentially allow people to have "get out of jail free" cards. "Here's my free infraction for the year - you're a #&$#&!!!" is what I'd ultimately expect the result to be from a system that allowed people to earn a couple of infractions per year and have them erased. Not saying a system couldn't be created, but it would be difficult to put one in place that didn't end up promoting bad behavior.

    I also think the community wouldn't really want a moderation system that was explicitly biased: Spend X amount of money per year, or be a VIP, and be able to say and do things that others cannot. I also think that a "moderation-free" thread would end up being a magnet for all kinds of hate, harassment, and threats, and would quickly become the #1 source of reported posts on the forums. I've worked on other forums over the years since being hired here (Batman: Arkham City, Gotham City Impostors, Midway Arcade, LOTRO, and others), and in other cases where threads have moved too quickly perhaps to moderate effectively, they soon became significant community problems. Since the official DDO forums are a place for the entirety of the community to gather, it necessitates guidelines that wouldn't probably apply to your guild forums or other more-private web sites. In the same way you can swear in your living room, but it's frowned upon when you go into a profanity-laced tirade at the toy store, we need to set rules in place for this community gathering space that take the entirety of the community into account.
    You take the entirety of the community into account, perhaps your demo includes more adults with jobs, careers, and families who would prefer to not get language policed. Getting infracted for saying "sh!t" while making otherwise valid points is nonsense, and you know it.

    I understand that you don't want full blown tirades, and that I agree. But using small forms of relaxed language without getting scared that you'll become one step closer to a PERMA-ban would significantly improve the experience on here, at least for me.
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  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by FredCDobbs View Post
    At any rate, once you are able to stop nitpicking the Trees you will see that
    the Forest is still standing: All authoritarianism is bad, and always does more
    social harm than whatever it was intended to control. Period.
    I think nearly every parent, school teacher, business manager or prison guard will disagree with you. You are wrong and as long as there are those who don't understand that freedom comes with the responsibility to not impose on the freedom of others you will be wrong.

  4. #164
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    I don't think anyone here has a problem with the fact that Turbine has rules and enforces them. I do think that many people have a problem with the fact that Turbine appears to be fairly arbitrary and capricious with their enforcement of their rules and that the forums would be better off with some adjustments to those rules (although each person might well have different opinions on what those adjustments should be).
    Again, I think this is more perception and expectation. On the GW2 forums, it always seemed like the first person to get reported was the first and ONLY person to get punished, no matter what the other people said, and it appears to me, that this is not the case with the DDO forums, and that shows that effort has been put into moderating the forums with a desire to try and do a good job.

    I am not saying I always like it, because, anyone can tell you, I have my points to show for all the times I have gotten out of line,

    Quote Originally Posted by Nascoe View Post
    Yes, that is a good comparison - a luxury resort where you get amusement, service and are provided safe surroundings to let your kids play all they want without having to constantly watch their backs.

    Hm, when you think about your comparison to the resort - does it really matter for the enjoyment of people whether any favoritism in keeping the rules is real or "just" percieved? Working in services for almost all my life, I tend to see both as being equally serious an upset to good relations, and the percieved ones being even more unpleasant. The best way out of that is to really look into that perception and be open enough about it that reasonable guests/customers/partners understand that you are doing all you can to be fair to everyone alike.
    That is why I would be happy if Cordovan took up the opportunity to look carefully into any information that he was sent based on this discussion and hope that it is followed up at least by communication with the people who provide that information, but even better if its addressed in a future post for all players.
    I think that would end poorly on all accounts. If you have a question about what he has done regarding your account, then you should seek to discuss that with him, but any action he has taken with someone else, is between him and them.

  5. #165
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knobull View Post

    Actual Action Alleged Infraction
    Reporting Personal Insults Stalking
    LOL, Translation: your "friend" went through someone else's posting history and reported all their posts trying to get them banned.

  6. #166
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    I just love it when people fight so hard for their right to swear. You can see that it's really important to them. Since swearing isn't important to me, I am not at all inconvenienced by not doing it in any particular place (on public forums, in front of my Nephews, etc.). Oh I do it when I stub my toe or lock my keys in the car, but if a child or my boss is present I can manage to refrain.

    I guess some people either can't control themselves or are so enamored of swear words that not using them really hurts. I personally don't understand it, but then I don't understand a lot of non-constructive habits.
    When a swear word in an otherwise reasonable post gets an infraction, but passive aggressive nastiness like this doesn't, there's something wrong.

    Anyone who reads something like this and doesn't think that it's intended to be insulting and offensive is kidding themselves. And I guarantee it won't be infracted or deleted.
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  7. #167

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    Successful troll is successful. *trollface*

  8. #168
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Again, I think this is more perception and expectation. On the GW2 forums, it always seemed like the first person to get reported was the first and ONLY person to get punished, no matter what the other people said, and it appears to me, that this is not the case with the DDO forums, and that shows that effort has been put into moderating the forums with a desire to try and do a good job.

    I am not saying I always like it, because, anyone can tell you, I have my points to show for all the times I have gotten out of line,
    I'd agree with you if it I hadn't personally seen repeated examples of one person being treated differently than another person for posting the same thing.
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  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    When a swear word in an otherwise reasonable post gets an infraction, but passive aggressive nastiness like this doesn't, there's something wrong.

    Anyone who reads something like this and doesn't think that it's intended to be insulting and offensive is kidding themselves. And I guarantee it won't be infracted or deleted.
    If I can express my opinion in a socially-acceptable way and someone else can't, that's the cause of the discrepancy.

  10. #170
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    I just love it when people fight so hard for their right to swear. You can see that it's really important to them. Since swearing isn't important to me, I am not at all inconvenienced by not doing it in any particular place (on public forums, in front of my Nephews, etc.). Oh I do it when I stub my toe or lock my keys in the car, but if a child or my boss is present I can manage to refrain.

    I guess some people either can't control themselves or are so enamored of swear words that not using them really hurts. I personally don't understand it, but then I don't understand a lot of non-constructive habits.
    You couldn't have gotten it more wrong.

    I'm not fighting for the right to swear. If it was that superficial, then I wouldn't care either. Take a closer look around - and not just here, but the world in general. People in positions of authority seem to seek to impose control wherever possible, curtailing our ability to swear is just another way of saying "I want to control what you say". I'm not a fan of that, that's my deeper point.

    Most of us seem like adults here, there's no justifiable reason for why we can't use more relaxed language on a gaming forum other than power trip (even a forum section that warns people that language is allowed would be a step in the right direction). Hell, even if we weren't all adults here - who cares about the use of language? There are far more disturbing things, like the obscene blood and gore on the front page of the newspaper depicting the boston marathon bombing. I would keep THAT away from my kids, not some dude using the F word.
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  11. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cetus View Post
    You couldn't have gotten it more wrong.

    I'm not fighting for the right to swear. If it was that superficial, then I wouldn't care either. Take a closer look around - and not just here, but the world in general. People in positions of authority seem to seek to impose control wherever possible, curtailing our ability to swear is just another way of saying "I want to control what you say". I'm not a fan of that, that's my deeper point.
    Ok, let's look beyond that issue. If you think that the main reason why ANY company imposes language rules is because they want to control you, that is a little paranoid. It isn't fiscally logical to spend the money to police language unless there is a good business-driven reason to do so. Not having a degree in Business, etc the two logical reasons I can think of are:

    -What goes on in a company venue reflects on that company.

    -They are trying to provide a venue that appeals to the most people possible.

    Most of us seem like adults here, there's no justifiable reason for why we can't use more relaxed language on a gaming forum other than power trip (even a forum section that warns people that language is allowed would be a step in the right direction). Hell, even if we weren't all adults here - who cares about the use of language? There are far more disturbing things, like the obscene blood and gore on the front page of the newspaper depicting the boston marathon bombing. I would keep THAT away from my kids, not some dude using the F word.
    I'm not sure what most of us being adults has to do with anything. I think that the guidelines for the forums are just fine. I don't feel the need to express myself in ways that break the guidelines. And I really don't feel that I'm missing anything from the forums not being more "relaxed" as you say. I think that the fact that people are more and more "relaxed" in public language among complete strangers is one cause of the decay of society. So few people care about being polite or thinking about how they affect other people anymore.

  12. #172
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    If I can express my opinion in a socially-acceptable way and someone else can't, that's the cause of the discrepancy.
    But you're not expressing your opinion in a socially acceptable way. You're being insulting and offensive and snide, but since you're doing it in a passive-aggressive way and you're doing it on Turbine's side, you'll be ignored instead of infracted.

    That's why there's a perception that some people are treated differently than others. Because you are treated differently.
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  13. #173
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    But you're not expressing your opinion in a socially acceptable way. You're being insulting and offensive and snide, but since you're doing it in a passive-aggressive way and you're doing it on Turbine's side, you'll be ignored instead of infracted.

    That's why there's a perception that some people are treated differently than others. Because you are treated differently.
    I like the cut of your jib.
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  15. #175
    Community Member Talonaise's Avatar
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    In this entire argument one thought kept popping up in my head. The fact that your infraction points don't go away. This seems ludicrous to me. Even points on your drivers license disappear over time, and lets face it, you can do far more damage in a speeding car than you will ever do on the DDO forums. If real life can build in room for good behavior - then so can a gaming forum. If they did it the same way for our cars, many adults would not be driving.

    If you have been in this game a long time, the chances of you getting banned increase. I know some of you will say -- "but I never cuss, or insult anyone, or have a bad day - I am perfect"... that isn't the point - the point is that law of probability is against you the longer you stay on the forums. That is not necessarily a good thing. We want to keep people in the game, and this forum is an excellent place for us to exchange ideas. Yes sometimes people will get heated up, and sometimes they will say things they shouldn't... Smack em down, that is fair enough. But I think there is a difference for someone who has literally set the forums on fire and is being a total disruption (permaban seems fair) to someone who over the course of 6 years made a series of snarky comments.

    Why not keep the infractions on record, but when the person hits the magic number, the moderator takes a moment to look at the infractions and disregard any over 2 years? If they are still over the limit, fine permaban, but if not... then warn or maybe a temp ban and probation? It is better for the community to keep active players (who are often active posters)... in the game and on the forums.

    I realize that this isn't the way it is set up now. But it could be.

    On one other note, I too would support a more relaxed hand when dealing with language. If it is used abusively, it should follow normal rules. But I think at this point the majority of players of this game are adults and I think we can handle it without destroying our society.
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  16. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    It would be more akin to someone visiting a country. No matter how much time we may spend on the forums or in game, it is nothing more then a vacation. Case in point, I work security on a Resort, and when people arrive, they pay for the privileged to be here and enjoy our amenities, but, they still have to follow the rules here, they are not given an allowance to do whatever they like simply because they paid money to be here. In fact, the point that we police the resort, we make sure people are following the rules, and that this place is a safe environment for children and adults alike, is what entices people to stay with us, and if you act up, or cause problems, or risk the safety of others, we will throw you out, no matter how much you have paid.

    I don't see the Turbine forums really being any different then that in function and purpose.



    I believe the largest problem with "perceived favoritism" is the perceived part.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Again, I think this is more perception and expectation. On the GW2 forums, it always seemed like the first person to get reported was the first and ONLY person to get punished, no matter what the other people said, and it appears to me, that this is not the case with the DDO forums, and that shows that effort has been put into moderating the forums with a desire to try and do a good job.

    I am not saying I always like it, because, anyone can tell you, I have my points to show for all the times I have gotten out of line,



    I think that would end poorly on all accounts. If you have a question about what he has done regarding your account, then you should seek to discuss that with him, but any action he has taken with someone else, is between him and them.
    Ehm, Ungood, I have never had any infractions (not that I post that often, or get involved in long "battles of right/wrong") here, this is not about me.

    It is about people like Cetus and others who have been on the forums for long, have posted a lot and come away with the feeling things are not fair. That is a problem to enjoyment of the game and therefore something that should be adressed for the long term prosperity of DDO. I certainly wouldn't expect Turbine to discuss details of individual cases, but having a post saying that based on this discussion they got say X issues PM to them with details, 30% were cleared by explaining them to the people that complained, 50% were found to be perfectly fine for Turbine and for the rest they looked into them in detail and made some minor adjustments to internal guidelines of how moderation is done (numbers just an example)

  17. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by FredCDobbs View Post
    Well, at least you didn't try to imply that I was comparing Turbine to Hitler!

    Your point is salient except for the fact that I am a Paying Customer.

    If the Turbine TOS agreement flatly stated: "We take your money and you will
    bloody well accept anything we give you - or do to you - without comment or
    objection," then that would be one thing. However, common sense tells us that
    customers generally dislike being followed around the store as though they might
    shoplift something at any moment, or being told, "No soup for you!" or the like.

    At any rate, once you are able to stop nitpicking the Trees you will see that
    the Forest is still standing: All authoritarianism is bad, and always does more
    social harm than whatever it was intended to control. Period.

    Edited to add: Look, I was a SuperModerator of a well-frequented web board
    some years ago. There were times when moderation - even punishments - were
    needed. I have warned people and suspended people and permabanned people;
    but my observation was that when you elevate someone to a position of power
    over others, abuses occur more predictably than you might imagine. There is a
    wealth of documented science to confirm this (Google 'Stanford Prison Experiment'
    and prepare for nightmares forever - or read the works of Bob Altemeyer). This
    is a fact: equip someone with a badge or a gun or a banhammer and there will
    be favouritism and excess demonstrated within a very short time. Fail to police
    the Police and you will soon be living in a Police State.

    "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"
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    Actually, I will only say this once and won't even come back to this forum again being It's full of negativity. Have you ever thought that there are times when rules In a forum have to be enforced? You being a so called super moderator should know this very well. And I would suggest to go to wilkpedia.com and search Stanford prison experiment. read all of It including the arguments made against It's validity. And what does Stanford prison experiment got to do with a ddo forum.

  18. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    Ok, let's look beyond that issue. If you think that the main reason why ANY company imposes language rules is because they want to control you, that is a little paranoid. It isn't fiscally logical to spend the money to police language unless there is a good business-driven reason to do so. Not having a degree in Business, etc the two logical reasons I can think of are:

    -What goes on in a company venue reflects on that company.

    -They are trying to provide a venue that appeals to the most people possible.



    I'm not sure what most of us being adults has to do with anything. I think that the guidelines for the forums are just fine. I don't feel the need to express myself in ways that break the guidelines. And I really don't feel that I'm missing anything from the forums not being more "relaxed" as you say. I think that the fact that people are more and more "relaxed" in public language among complete strangers is one cause of the decay of society. So few people care about being polite or thinking about how they affect other people anymore.
    You hit the hammer dead on the nail. Good post.

  19. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cetus View Post
    You couldn't have gotten it more wrong.

    I'm not fighting for the right to swear. If it was that superficial, then I wouldn't care either. Take a closer look around - and not just here, but the world in general. People in positions of authority seem to seek to impose control wherever possible, curtailing our ability to swear is just another way of saying "I want to control what you say". I'm not a fan of that, that's my deeper point.

    Most of us seem like adults here, there's no justifiable reason for why we can't use more relaxed language on a gaming forum other than power trip (even a forum section that warns people that language is allowed would be a step in the right direction). Hell, even if we weren't all adults here - who cares about the use of language? There are far more disturbing things, like the obscene blood and gore on the front page of the newspaper depicting the boston marathon bombing. I would keep THAT away from my kids, not some dude using the F word.
    Most of us probably are adults here, but this forum is still also used by minors, as well as being publicly accessible by anyone. Obscenities and other foul language isn't generally tolerated around minors or areas that will reflect upon the owner's image. These forums are no different.

    (And yes, I know that kids are actually more likely to swear amongst themselves than adults: its "cool" and shows how much of a rebel they are. The issue is not that you will be teaching most of them new words, but bad habits.)

    Remember that this is text-based communication. Its never a case of a sudden outburst, elicited by physical or emotional trauma, made before your brain catches up to your surroundings.
    You have to make a deliberate decision to type out the obscene, scatological, racist or similarly relaxed word, fully in the knowledge that what you say will be "heard" by people you are not aware of.
    And then you have to hit the "submit" button with the full text of what you just typed visible to you and available for editing.

    I'm sure that when you use "relaxed" language you do not use it with the intent to upset, belittle or otherwise emotionally or mentally harm anyone. However others do, and people in positions in authority have a responsibility to prevent that. They generally do this by curtailing what you say in the same way that they "want to control what you do" when they curtail the ability to physically assault someone.

  20. #180
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Glad posting "/signed" isn't allowed anymore. It's an empty statement. If you support something, state why.

    This rule keeps the meaningless clutter off the boards.

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