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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by FredCDobbs View Post
    au·thor·i·tar·i·an (?-thôr?*-târ??-?n, ?-th?r?-, ô-thôr?-, ô-th?r?-)
    adj.
    1. Characterized by or favoring absolute obedience to authority, as against individual freedom: an authoritarian regime.
    2. Of, relating to, or expecting unquestioning obedience. See Synonyms: dictatorial.
    So. If you only meant that particular definition of authoritarianism, how do you see it being relevant enough to include in a post about Turbine's forum policy?

    Isn't the fact that you, personally agreed to those rules an individual freedom? Nothing holding you to your promise not to break them but your own integrity and the accepted consequences.
    You aren't trapped by race, creed, religion or region. You volunteered to enter an area where these rules apply, and you can choose to leave at any point.
    You're even allowed, or even encouraged to disagree with or criticise the subject of these forums which the authority in this area runs.

    Godwin was an utter a***, IMHO: methinks he doth protest too much. And again, "parallels?" - I think not.
    You may think not, but we're not privy to that.
    We can only respond to what you actually said:

    Quote Originally Posted by FredCDobbs View Post
    These are Turbine's fora; they can do as they like here and we must all comply with their rules.
    However, the same thing could be said of Germany between 1929-1945 or the American South
    between 1865-1965.
    You appear to be drawing a direct parallel between the power that Turbine has on these forums and the power that the people in charge of Germany during that time period (nasty political party) or whoever ran the American south in that time had.
    Given that these are not the most extreme examples of authoritarianism available, but are some of the most well-known abuses of it, it is not unreasonable to understand that that is what you are getting at.
    Of course you may not have meant it that way, but we can only go by what you specifically said.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by goodspeed View Post
    Now while the rules do indeed state that apparently calling attention to another humans failure at learning anything on sentence structure or even how to use a keyboard is in some way hurting them. I feel it is a guarantee that while it is not said, the mirth, the laughter, the pointing, even the pity becomes an unsaid. Allrighty then.
    These are international forums.

    As a general rule*, even when I haven't accepted an agreement like that, I don't make fun of the way someone speaks unless I am very sure that I can speak their native tongue better than they are speaking English.


    *I generally regard "duel-wielding" and "rouges" as fair game though. Mostly because its the native English speakers who tend to mix those up. ;-)

  3. #103
    Community Member razzertothemax3's Avatar
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  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amundir View Post
    Mmm, so there is the perception of favortism. Examples...?
    Examples are intractable (and the post will vanish), but I see it all the time.

    Just gotta ask in places that aren't moderated by Cordovan. If in doubt, google "ddo forums" and pick anything not moderated by the DDO staff.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khatzhas View Post
    All sufficiently sweeping statements are false. Yours is most certainly sweeping enough to be untrue.

    .
    .
    .
    Irony, much? Not that I entirely disagree with you, but I tend to phrase such objections as "all and none are extremes, and extremes are rarely true". This way I avoid using a similar extreme.
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  6. #106
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    /sig....

  7. #107
    Community Member Tscheuss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khatzhas View Post
    These are international forums.

    As a general rule*, even when I haven't accepted an agreement like that, I don't make fun of the way someone speaks unless I am very sure that I can speak their native tongue better than they are speaking English.


    *I generally regard "duel-wielding" and "rouges" as fair game though. Mostly because its the native English speakers who tend to mix those up. ;-)
    The rule does specify intent to embarrass, so I would think intent to assist would be okay. I am not sure what about makeup you feel is fair game, though.
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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Yes and this creates a huge rift between understanding the weight of opinions of those who actually play the game versus whose voice gets to be heard on the forums, by creating a situation where the loudest voices on the forums are not representing the majority opinion in game.
    My irony meter just exploded.
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  9. #109
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    Arrow Indeed

    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Turbine makes it very clear that you can object, by taking your business elsewhere.

    Turbine is neither authoritarian, nor it is totalitarian, as it makes no claim to control your individual sovereignty, you a free to come and go as you please with their game and forums.

    But if you, of your own volition, want to use their product, you are required to follow their code of conduct, both in game and on the forums. If you don't want to do that, you are of course free to find your entertainment elsewhere.
    Exactly. Our free choice is to play this game and read and post on these forums, and/or to pay for playing it as VIP or Premium. Its an agreement where Turbine offers the game to us and we accept that offer, committing us to the rules that come with that.

    Even going back to an (somewhat off topic discussion) of governments and the degree of freedom they allow people to live under, you could compare it to a foreigner coming into your country by their own free will as a visitor. Wouldn't you expect them to follow the laws of that country as well? Or at worst/best (depending on your/their point of view) entice a discussion of whether these laws are right/best/wrong or whatever if they object to part of that law?

    Now lets get back to subject - I do think it would be a good move for Cordovan to have a good look at the perceived favorism with regards to infractions/bans. At a minimum it will help improve relations with a part of the player base that are often active players and forum participants to communicate these issues and seriously answer these concerns. And it might even turn out that there is some truth to the perception.

    Also probably reconsider permanent infractions, because I too think that time (long time?) should erase our mistakes made (2-3 years time-out?).

  10. #110
    Community Member LordTw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khatzhas View Post

    Isn't there a rule about invoking Godwin's law applicable somewhere? ;-)


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  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Well, I'd immediately perma-ban forum account AND game account if someone threatened to kill me. So it sounds like Turbine is pretty lenient.

    I, otoh, would probably be more likely to PM them my address and wish them luck.



    As for the rest of the thread, it seems to be going all...

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  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    In fact, I could wonder why you would choose to pay for this service if you put them in such company...
    Except I didn't. But nice try (not).

    Now, do some creative/selective cutting/pasting to bolster your assertion.

    While you're at it, continue to ignore everything else I've written in this thread
    which weakens that assertion; that way, you might just fool anyone who hasn't
    read the whole topic from the top down.

    Toss in a few straw men, heat to boiling, and serve with a flourish.

    As for me, I've already had a bellyfull and will be leaving the table to you.
    Go on now: have the last word; I don't need it. Here, I'll help: You 'Win'.

    Have a nice day!

  13. #113
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    Considering how long this "interactive" discussion about methods of madness being used here, speaks volumes to me as to a new page we may be on. Fingers crossed.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdbd3rd View Post
    I, otoh, would probably be more likely to PM them my address and wish them luck.



    As for the rest of the thread, it seems to be going all...
    Hehe, I was distracted when I posted what my friend said - it was more to the effect of "OP should die for such a poor title", not "I'm gonna kill you OP, your title sucks".

    He got 2 infraction points for a poor joke, he accepted it. My other friend got a perma-ban for saying someone had a brown nose (ie. kisses a lot of ass)
    Saying a dev should die is 20% of a ban, saying brown noser is perma.

    My point? Bans/infractions are handed out based off what mood Cordovan is in and who you are.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pala-forged View Post
    My point? Bans/infractions are handed out based off what mood Cordovan is in and who you are.
    Turbine's COC #12 While participating in the Dungeons&Dragons Online service, both in-game and through the official Web, you will follow the instructions of authorized personnel at all times.

    Must rebel against authority...

  16. #116
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nascoe View Post
    Exactly. Our free choice is to play this game and read and post on these forums, and/or to pay for playing it as VIP or Premium. Its an agreement where Turbine offers the game to us and we accept that offer, committing us to the rules that come with that.

    Even going back to an (somewhat off topic discussion) of governments and the degree of freedom they allow people to live under, you could compare it to a foreigner coming into your country by their own free will as a visitor. Wouldn't you expect them to follow the laws of that country as well? Or at worst/best (depending on your/their point of view) entice a discussion of whether these laws are right/best/wrong or whatever if they object to part of that law?
    It would be more akin to someone visiting a country. No matter how much time we may spend on the forums or in game, it is nothing more then a vacation. Case in point, I work security on a Resort, and when people arrive, they pay for the privileged to be here and enjoy our amenities, but, they still have to follow the rules here, they are not given an allowance to do whatever they like simply because they paid money to be here. In fact, the point that we police the resort, we make sure people are following the rules, and that this place is a safe environment for children and adults alike, is what entices people to stay with us, and if you act up, or cause problems, or risk the safety of others, we will throw you out, no matter how much you have paid.

    I don't see the Turbine forums really being any different then that in function and purpose.

    Now lets get back to subject - I do think it would be a good move for Cordovan to have a good look at the perceived favorism with regards to infractions/bans. At a minimum it will help improve relations with a part of the player base that are often active players and forum participants to communicate these issues and seriously answer these concerns. And it might even turn out that there is some truth to the perception.
    I believe the largest problem with "perceived favoritism" is the perceived part.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimlock View Post
    make a 18+ section on the forums that ignore all of the community guidelines with the exception of anything illegal. It is incredibly annoying to have our freedom of speech limited in any capacity including the right for us to express our opinions.
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  18. #118
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    It would be more akin to someone visiting a country. No matter how much time we may spend on the forums or in game, it is nothing more then a vacation. Case in point, I work security on a Resort, and when people arrive, they pay for the privileged to be here and enjoy our amenities, but, they still have to follow the rules here, they are not given an allowance to do whatever they like simply because they paid money to be here. In fact, the point that we police the resort, we make sure people are following the rules, and that this place is a safe environment for children and adults alike, is what entices people to stay with us, and if you act up, or cause problems, or risk the safety of others, we will throw you out, no matter how much you have paid.

    I don't see the Turbine forums really being any different then that in function and purpose.
    I don't think anyone here has a problem with the fact that Turbine has rules and enforces them. I do think that many people have a problem with the fact that Turbine appears to be fairly arbitrary and capricious with their enforcement of their rules and that the forums would be better off with some adjustments to those rules (although each person might well have different opinions on what those adjustments should be).



    I believe the largest problem with "perceived favoritism" is the perceived part.
    The fact that we're not allowed to give specific examples on their forum does make it more difficult to discuss perception vs. reality in this thread, of course.
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  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pala-forged View Post
    ...

    My point? Bans/infractions are handed out based off what mood Cordovan is in and who you are.
    Well, I'll disagree with that and leave it as is - but I will point out that he's already been lenient as hell to a lot in this thread, including discussions of Frax/bans.

    Just a friendly suggestion to several folks, might wanna do some editting.
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  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pala-forged View Post
    Hehe, I was distracted when I posted what my friend said - it was more to the effect of "OP should die for such a poor title", not "I'm gonna kill you OP, your title sucks".

    He got 2 infraction points for a poor joke, he accepted it. My other friend got a perma-ban for saying someone had a brown nose (ie. kisses a lot of ass)
    Saying a dev should die is 20% of a ban, saying brown noser is perma.

    My point? Bans/infractions are handed out based off what mood Cordovan is in and who you are.
    Please don't make it personal. Remember that this thread does not suddenly permit people to talk about specific incidents or infractions. We do our best here to be impartial; typically, when looking at a reported post, we don't look at the name of the person who made the post until after the post is read, and an initial idea about whether it's a violation is made. It's not uncommon for people who consistently violate the rules to feel like they are being targeted, but it's simply not the case.

    I quote this, though, because it brings up a semi-common statement that moderators hear when they've issued an infraction, and that infraction causes someone to reach a total infraction limit and be banned: "I was BANNED for X!!!?!?!?!?!"

    No, you were not banned for X. You were - infracted - for X, and since you reached ten total infractions, you were banned. You were - not - banned for X; rather, you were banned for A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I AND then X. It's not uncommon for people to falsely equate a ban to the last thing they were infracted for, but unless that infraction was a 20-point infraction, it alone did not cause you to be banned.
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