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  1. #1
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    Default 12/6/2 - when to take what levels?

    So I have a (H-Orc) Barb I'm not doing anything with who has two raider's boxes on it I figured I'd put to good use. I've been wanting a decent TWFer (outside of my Monk, that is) for a long time now, and I think I'm going to LR this Barb in to such a build. However, I'm having trouble deciding what build would be best for what I want.

    I was thinking the typical 12 Fighter/6 Ranger/2 Monk would be fun. Then I realized that I'd have to LR in to something else, buy an alignment change to Lawful, and then LR once more to include the Monk levels. Bummer. Since I don't have the resources to do that right now, I thought I'd give the 2 Rogue splash a go.

    My two main concerns, though, are the following:

    1. Weapon choices. Khopesh look fabulous.. however, there aren't any Khopesh in those boxes I mentioned above. There are, however, Bastard Swords.. so how do the two compare these days? Something I'd read suggest that Khopesh are still king in terms of raw damage, considering the 3x multiplier means more critical effects, paired with the base 10% critical change and a not-so-bad base damage. Thoughts?

    2. Level choices. At first glance, it looks like I'd be taking at least Rogue at 1 for the skill points, and to pick up Toughness or something. Then Ranger at 2, 4, 6, and 11 for the free TWF feats and Ranger spells at 4. Probably Ranger at 9, also, for Evasion, since taking Rogue at 2 would mean I'd need to meet a DEX requirement for TWF (and use a feat slot getting it). However, this is just how it looks to me at first glance.

    If this is correct, where do I fill in the other levels? Obviously the easiest route would be to figure out where to put the other Rogue level, and then just fill in the rest with Fighter. So again assuming what I said above is correct, where's the best place for that other Rogue level? It almost looks like 19 for Imp. Evasion and the SA. Maybe as early as 13, since both Ranger and Fighter get nothing of note that level either.

    But anyway, thoughts? If you want to just link me to a build that's essentially what I'm looking for without saying anything, that's fine, but I'd still at least like insight on the weapon issue. Thanks!
    Last edited by Requimatic; 04-14-2014 at 01:03 PM. Reason: More info

  2. #2
    Community Member Cardtrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Requimatic View Post
    1. Weapon choices. Khopesh look fabulous.. however, there aren't any Khopesh in those boxes I mentioned above. There are, however, Bastard Swords.. so how do the two compare these days? Something I'd read suggest that Khopesh are still king in terms of raw damage, considering the 3x multiplier means more critical effects, paired with the base 10% critical change and a not-so-bad base damage. Thoughts?
    Make sure that one of your two raider's boxes is used for Pinion. It's head-and-shoulders above the other bows.

    Pinion, Needle, and Sireth -- and Mornh or Nightmare, maybe, for certain builds -- are the really irreplaceable CITW weapons that you don't want to miss out on.

    Khopeshes are back to being a really good choice. Even though there's no CITW weapon for them, they retain by far the best base critical profile of any weapon. That is relevant because the endgame weapons (Thunderforged) all have a bunch of nice abilities and enhanced base damage, but do not have enhanced critical profiles. So khopeshes once again have a competitive advantage.

    For epic leveling, the tier 3 elemental khopesh of water from the cannith challenges is a perfectly solid starter weapon at 20.

    Quote Originally Posted by Requimatic View Post
    2. Level choices. At first glance, it looks like I'd be taking at least Rogue at 1 for the skill points, and to pick up Toughness or something. Then Ranger at 2, 4, 6, and 11 for the free TWF feats and Ranger spells at 4. Probably Ranger at 9, also, for Evasion, since taking Rogue at 2 would mean I'd need to meet a DEX requirement for TWF (and use a feat slot getting it). However, this is just how it looks to me at first glance.[

    If this is correct, where do I fill in the other levels? Obviously the easiest route would be to figure out where to put the other Rogue level, and then just fill in the rest with Fighter. So again assuming what I said above is correct, where's the best place for that other Rogue level? It almost looks like 19 for Imp. Evasion and the SA. Maybe as early as 13, since both Ranger and Fighter get nothing of note that level either.
    This part is confusing me. I thought from the earlier part of your post that you were doing this as an LR, but this makes it sound like you care about performance during the leveling process. Which is it?

    And are you trying for trap skills?
    Last edited by Cardtrick; 04-14-2014 at 01:36 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Zero View Post
    One day I just wrote "Why Do I Die So Much?" in party chat, and that is how I learned about fortification.

  3. #3
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Requimatic View Post
    There are, however, Bastard Swords..
    TBH the bastard sword in the raider's box might be the best weapon in there. I was enamored with Celestia but gave the Nightmare to one character. Wish that I'd chosen it for all my characters.

    If going fighter/ranger/monk you have the issue of needing lots of fighter levels before monk to avoid centered problems. Couple that with wanting lots of ranger levels for the TWF feats and you could be looking at L16 as your first monk level.

    Personally, I'd say that's alright provided you don't mind the grind to L16. You could always go with an iconic to jump start thru L15 but that would mean at least a +1 heart wood to LR and get on track with what you really want to do. Of course, you could always go with longswords during heroic levels so could take monk earlier.

    Not sure the leveling order really matters since the whole thing depends on getting fleshed out by L20 and picking up epic levels to use the gear from the raider's boxes anyway. And, I'm not so sure that it is that important to have the TWF feats especially early.

    I might be inclined to go ranger followed by the 2 monk, ranger thru L8 and then pick up fighter last. Just use wraps and/or longswords until the fighter levels catch up enough to let you use bastard swords.

    If you go the rogue route then, IMO, it is rogue for 2 levels then ranger then fighter. But, I don't think it really matters a whole lot.
    Last edited by Therigar; 04-14-2014 at 01:37 PM.

  4. #4
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardtrick View Post
    Make sure that one of your two raider's boxes is used for Pinion. It's head-and-shoulders above the other bows.
    Reasonable advice but I'm not sure I agree. Is CITW something you're going to run every day, or at least every 3 or 4 days? If so this might be a good thing to consider.

    But, if you are going to spend most of your gaming time doing something else then a lesser bow for a raid you are not running all of the time probably makes better sense.

    IMO beefing up on the TWF aspect of the build probably is better than taking a bow you'll only use on occasion (and maybe only on rare occasion).

  5. #5
    Community Member Cardtrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Reasonable advice but I'm not sure I agree. Is CITW something you're going to run every day, or at least every 3 or 4 days? If so this might be a good thing to consider.

    But, if you are going to spend most of your gaming time doing something else then a lesser bow for a raid you are not running all of the time probably makes better sense.

    IMO beefing up on the TWF aspect of the build probably is better than taking a bow you'll only use on occasion (and maybe only on rare occasion).
    You might be right. I just feel like he's going to be better off going with Thunderforged khopeshes than any of the CITW weapons if he wants to do TWF. But with 12 fighter levels and 6 ranger levels, there's no reason at all not to also invest in a decent ranged option, and Pinion will make way more of a difference to that aspect of the build than any of the one-handed weapons will to the TWFing.

    But I did just realize he never even mentioned ranged in the first post, so maybe he has no intention at all of grabbing the requisite feats or using the ranged option.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Zero View Post
    One day I just wrote "Why Do I Die So Much?" in party chat, and that is how I learned about fortification.

  6. #6
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardtrick View Post
    This part is confusing me. I thought from the earlier part of your post that you were doing this as an LR, but this makes it sound like you care about performance during the leveling process. Which is it?

    And are you trying for trap skills?
    Good catch. I read right over that and assumed TR.

    If LR then the only issue is skill selection. And, obviously, I missed the barbarian LR piece which sends monk right out of the picture.

    IMO I would go rogue at L1, fighter at L2-13, ranger at L14-19 and then rogue at L20 if doing this as a LR.

    Reason -- max skill points at L1, least skill points at levels 2-13 while tomes kick in, finally most skill points at levels 14+ when tomes have had a chance to make biggest difference. Just back fill rogue skills as needed at the higher levels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardtrick View Post
    Make sure that one of your two raider's boxes is used for Pinion. It's head-and-shoulders above the other bows.

    Pinion, Needle, and Sireth -- and Mornh or Nightmare, maybe, for certain builds -- are the really irreplaceable CITW weapons that you don't want to miss out on.

    Khopeshes are back to being a really good choice. Even though there's no CITW weapon for them, they retain by far the best base critical profile of any weapon. That is relevant because the endgame weapons (Thunderforged) all have a bunch of nice abilities and enhanced base damage, but do not have enhanced critical profiles. So khopeshes once again have a competitive advantage.

    For epic leveling, the tier 3 elemental khopesh of water from the cannith challenges is a perfectly solid starter weapon at 20.



    This part is confusing me. I thought from the earlier part of your post that you were doing this as an LR, but this makes it sound like you care about performance during the leveling process. Which is it?

    And are you trying for trap skills?
    Sorry, I guess I was kind of unclear. Yes, it's going to be an LR, but aren't class-granted feats given at the required character level, and not the level of the class? (ie: GTWF is given to Rangers for free at 11. Is that based on total character level, or is it only given to you if you have 11 -Ranger- levels, at the 11th?)

    But while it is an LR, and I'd be 20 once I figured this all out, I would most likely TR at one point, after I accumulated the required stuff to make a TR a lot easier (equipment, haha). Edit: also, no, I wouldn't be worrying about traps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Reasonable advice but I'm not sure I agree. Is CITW something you're going to run every day, or at least every 3 or 4 days? If so this might be a good thing to consider.

    But, if you are going to spend most of your gaming time doing something else then a lesser bow for a raid you are not running all of the time probably makes better sense.

    IMO beefing up on the TWF aspect of the build probably is better than taking a bow you'll only use on occasion (and maybe only on rare occasion).
    Honestly I wouldn't use it that much. But considering how I might have to kite things if I'm soloing, that may not be a bad idea.

  8. #8
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardtrick View Post
    You might be right. I just feel like he's going to be better off going with Thunderforged khopeshes than any of the CITW weapons if he wants to do TWF. But with 12 fighter levels and 6 ranger levels, there's no reason at all not to also invest in a decent ranged option, and Pinion will make way more of a difference to that aspect of the build than any of the one-handed weapons will to the TWFing.

    But I did just realize he never even mentioned ranged in the first post, so maybe he has no intention at all of grabbing the requisite feats or using the ranged option.
    I haven't done mush of the new content yet so don't know how awesome the Thunderforged weapons are. I only noticed that he said he had 2 raider's boxes and I know that if I had 2 on a single character (well, I did, but I used them on Celestia) that my personal experience now is that I'd take Nightmare hands down.

    FWIW, I do have Pinion from the box on a ranger and it is indeed a great weapon. But, if the focus is TWF and the boxes are there then, IMO, dual Nightmare would be a blast.

    I will caveat that, however, with the observation that it isn't an answer for everything.

  9. #9
    Community Member Cardtrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Requimatic View Post
    Sorry, I guess I was kind of unclear. Yes, it's going to be an LR, but aren't class-granted feats given at the required character level, and not the level of the class? (ie: GTWF is given to Rangers for free at 11. Is that based on total character level, or is it only given to you if you have 11 -Ranger- levels, at the 11th?)
    Yes, that's true. But the fact that it's a TR means you can do things like push the final rogue level to 20, to maximize UMD, for example. (Actually depends on which skills you choose to care about.)

    And not having to worry about playability in the interim frees you up to really maximize your feat selection for endgame.


    Quote Originally Posted by Requimatic View Post
    Honestly I wouldn't use it that much. But considering how I might have to kite things if I'm soloing, that may not be a bad idea.
    I stand by my opinion that Pinion is one of the few truly irreplaceable weapons from the CITW raiders boxes. Since the raid itself isn't being run much anymore, it's really really hard to get one if you don't use your box for it.

    If you're not sure what your final life is going to be, I would at least suggest holding off on using one of the two boxes until you know. Very likely, Pinion will be the best choice from it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Zero View Post
    One day I just wrote "Why Do I Die So Much?" in party chat, and that is how I learned about fortification.

  10. #10
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Requimatic View Post
    Sorry, I guess I was kind of unclear. Yes, it's going to be an LR, but aren't class-granted feats given at the required character level, and not the level of the class? (ie: GTWF is given to Rangers for free at 11. Is that based on total character level, or is it only given to you if you have 11 -Ranger- levels, at the 11th?)
    Class feats come only if you have the character class levels. So, to get GTWF you'd have to select it at some point and spend a feat for it. That means you'd have to have enough DEX (17 with base DEX plus tomes) to qualify for the feat as well as having the prerequisite feats (ITWF in this case).

    This would be a consideration if you took my suggestion on leveling since you'd need to wait until L21 for GTWF. You might want to go rogue at L1, fighter at L2-12, ranger at L13-18, fighter at L19 and rogue at L20. The autogrant of ITWF at L18 (ranger 6) would let you pick up GTWF with your L18 feat. And, if you missed it there you could get it at L19 with your fighter 12 feat.

    IMO any epic bow plus paralysis arrows handles most soloing requirements.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Class feats come only if you have the character class levels. So, to get GTWF you'd have to select it at some point and spend a feat for it. That means you'd have to have enough DEX (17 with base DEX plus tomes) to qualify for the feat as well as having the prerequisite feats (ITWF in this case).

    This would be a consideration if you took my suggestion on leveling since you'd need to wait until L21 for GTWF. You might want to go rogue at L1, fighter at L2-12, ranger at L13-18, fighter at L19 and rogue at L20. The autogrant of ITWF at L18 (ranger 6) would let you pick up GTWF with your L18 feat. And, if you missed it there you could get it at L19 with your fighter 12 feat.

    IMO any epic bow plus paralysis arrows handles most soloing requirements.
    Ah, okay. I wasn't entirely sure how class-granted feats were handled while multi-classing, as I've never played anything but pures before. (This was back in '09, when pures were still pretty well viable compared to any multi-class builds) I probably should have known that you had to have X amount of class levels to get them, rather than total level. But now I know for sure, so this could go easier yet.

    But yeah, I'd rather not wait until 21 for GTWF, haha. I think I will take a Pinion out of one of those boxes, though. I can understand how the raid it's from isn't being ran very often, making something pretty good that hard to get. I'd have a hard enough time making a pair of Green Steel Khopesh without buying all the mats. Not to mention Alchemical things.

    So I guess the only thing left at this point is to load this up in the generator and see what I can come up with. But thanks to all for the insight, suggestions, and general knowledge on the subject that I was unaware of!

  12. #12
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Shameless plug: if you wanted to keep barb your primary class, have a look at my Huntress build; for a build with better self-healing, also have a look at maddmatt70's Battlerager.

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    Community Member avepepix's Avatar
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    Start with rogue its a good choice.

    If you dont want to take evation 2 times (lvl 2 rogue & lvl 9 ranger) You can try this.

    lvl 1 rogue for skills and sneack attack
    lvl 2 - lvl 3 ranger for auto granted TWF
    lvl 4 - rogue for evasion
    lvl 5 - lvl 6 Fighter for the extra feats
    lvl 7 - lvl 10 ranger for the auto granted feats
    lvl 11 - lvl 20 Fighter


    Or eliminate the rogue lvls and go ranger/fighter kensay tempest.

  14. #14
    Community Member Nightmanis's Avatar
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    Balizarde and Pinion. When you make a Thunderforged weapon, it's probably better to make either a scimitar or a rapier since all the effects are based on number of crits, not the crit mod (which is what made Khopeshes so powerful back in the day). Thunderforged Rapier in the main hand, Balizarde in the offhand. Pinion to mow down opponents elsewhere.

    The only other one hander I would suggest is Celestia. I'd still go with Balizarde.

  15. #15
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Not to go too off-topic, but how does Mornh stack up w/TF weapons?

  16. #16
    Community Member Nightmanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    Not to go too off-topic, but how does Mornh stack up w/TF weapons?
    Mornh is better in terms of tactics because of the synergy of Anvil of Thunder and Pulverizer. However I think the TF hammer pulls ahead of a TF khopesh because both end up with the same crit stats when you factor in pulverizer (if you're not a kensei as Keen Edge doesn't stack) but has a higher base damage. Regardless it makes for a very nice setup to dual wield them.

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