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  1. #1
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    Default Rogue splash worth keeping after lvl 18?

    I have cycled in and out of this game for several years now, and have just re-entered. I have a human arti16/rogue2 that I used a year or so ago as a crafter/hagglebot. I reinc him to one of the combat builds on this forum, but left in the rogue splash. I see all the new builds seem to be pure arti. Is evasion important enough to keep the splash?

  2. #2

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    For epics, yes--it is the big complaint that one must have evasion, and so many do this by splashing 2 monk levels. On an arti the 2 rogue levels make more sense.

    On other class splashes, with two rogue levels they get trapping and UMD maxed out but sometimes not having a full BAB is a turnoff. Then again, scrolling Tensers solves that, if one wants to keep it up long enough (or use Divine Power clickies etc.).
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  3. #3
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Do you have Needle (via the raider's boxes)? If so, it's worth it if you focus on min/maxing around xbow damage. To do so, get cleave, great cleave and overwhelming critical (in epic), along with combat archery (in epic).

    However, for a bunch of different points of view, check out 'Opitimizing a pure artie for ee' - lots of good ideas in there.

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    Gee, I would never have thought cleave would apply to xbows, and I didn't notice the feat being taken in any of the recent builds. Too, Needle is lvl23, so I'll have to wait to use that. But thanks for the singular advice.

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    Community Member Loromir's Avatar
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    It is useful to have the rogue splash for Evasion. An alternative however, is to stay in Shadow Dancer Destiny which has evasion as a core. Then you can go Pure Arti.
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  6. #6
    Community Member Stoner81's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonoma View Post
    Gee, I would never have thought cleave would apply to xbows, and I didn't notice the feat being taken in any of the recent builds. Too, Needle is lvl23, so I'll have to wait to use that. But thanks for the singular advice.
    Cleave and Great Cleave don't directly apply to crossbows however, they are both feat pre-requisites for Overwhelming Critical which is an Epic feat.

    Stoner81.

  7. #7
    The Hatchery serthcore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kinggartk View Post
    It is useful to have the rogue splash for Evasion. An alternative however, is to stay in Shadow Dancer Destiny which has evasion as a core. Then you can go Pure Arti.

    Yep, i prefer to go pure and switch to shadowdancer when evasion is needed or make things easier (like von 5), that destiny adds other nice things to arties like +6 int, dodge, reflex, etc.

    OP: But 2 rogue levels won't hurt you, i would save that heart of wood.

    Also: i wouldn't take overwhelming critical, its 4 feats and 23 strength what you need, in some cases it hurts more than it gives!
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    The Hatchery CThruTheEgo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by serthcore View Post
    Also: i wouldn't take overwhelming critical, its 4 feats and 23 strength what you need, in some cases it hurts more than it gives!
    23 strength is the biggest cost imo. Reaching 23 base in what is otherwise a dump stat for a repeater build is quite costly.
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  9. #9
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by serthcore View Post
    Also: i wouldn't take overwhelming critical, its 4 feats and 23 strength what you need, in some cases it hurts more than it gives!
    I agree, you're making an already MAD build MADer and you're giving up, say, a bunch of metamagics for a modest boost to ranged DPS (relative to the stat & feat cost).

    The biggest drawback to splashing rog or monk on an arty is losing the capstone and two lvl 6 spell slots; even if you don't need/want Reconstruct, it still means you have to pick between Deadly, Blade Barrier, and TacDet. If you're making a crafter, you also lose +1 Craft Mastery. The main advantage, of course, is gaining Evasion and either a bit of SA, Mechanic enhs, and rog skills OR an extra feat (-1 arty +2 monk). Since you've already taken your rog splash and you're almost lvl 20, you might as well stick with it and see if you think Evasion is worth it in epics; if not, you can always LR +3 or TR.
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  10. #10
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    I agree, you're making an already MAD build MADer and you're giving up, say, a bunch of metamagics for a modest boost to ranged DPS (relative to the stat & feat cost).

    The biggest drawback to splashing rog or monk on an arty is losing the capstone and two lvl 6 spell slots; even if you don't need/want Reconstruct, it still means you have to pick between Deadly, Blade Barrier, and TacDet. If you're making a crafter, you also lose +1 Craft Mastery. The main advantage, of course, is gaining Evasion and either a bit of SA, Mechanic enhs, and rog skills OR an extra feat (-1 arty +2 monk). Since you've already taken your rog splash and you're almost lvl 20, you might as well stick with it and see if you think Evasion is worth it in epics; if not, you can always LR +3 or TR.
    I feel like if you're going to splash, you might as well max xbow damage. Some people have told me that they do 4k and more w/adrenaline shot maxing out xbow damage. But yeah, make the class any way you want to - just let us know how it works out!

  11. #11
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singular View Post
    I feel like if you're going to splash, you might as well max xbow damage.
    Rog splash will let OP add up to +2 repeater dmg, +3d6 SA, and Venomed Blades (if it work w/xbows), without diverting any pts into STR or needing to LR. And splashing an arty is only a modest hit to their caster DPS (-2 INT -5 Spellcraft w/out AT capstone), so I don't see a reason to dump metamagics to add OC.
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  12. #12
    Community Member Linvak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    Rog splash will let OP add up to +2 repeater dmg, +3d6 SA, and Venomed Blades (if it work w/xbows), without diverting any pts into STR or needing to LR. And splashing an arty is only a modest hit to their caster DPS (-2 INT -5 Spellcraft w/out AT capstone), so I don't see a reason to dump metamagics to add OC.
    Venomed blades does work on ranged.


    Also, what are people's ideas on 5 rogue and 10% doubleshot?

    Have we confirmed the penalty of doubleshotting with a repeater? When I was leveling up a rogue with only the 10% I was getting an unusual amount of double shots even into my 2nd and 3rd bolt.

  13. #13
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linvak View Post
    Also, what are people's ideas on 5 rogue and 10% doubleshot?
    The major drawbacks to rog 5 / arty 15 are: losing two arty bonus feats; only getting 1 lvl 6 spell slot; losing the arty capstone and lvl 18 core enhs. Plus I think the Mechanic tree as a whole is fairly weak and taking T5 Rapid Fire from Mechanic means locking out the other T5s. I can't imagine playing a mostly-pure ranged arty w/out Tactical Mobility + RA Overcharge anymore.
    Have we confirmed the penalty of doubleshotting with a repeater? When I was leveling up a rogue with only the 10% I was getting an unusual amount of double shots even into my 2nd and 3rd bolt.
    Someone claimed that Doubleshot bonus is spread across every bolt w/repeaters; e.g., if you have 15% Doubleshot total, each bolt in a 3-shot volley has 5% Doubleshot chance. No clue if that's true, but it's as good a rule of thumb as any.
    Last edited by unbongwah; 05-07-2014 at 10:29 AM.
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  14. #14
    Community Member Linvak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    The major drawbacks to rog 5 / arty 15 are: losing two arty bonus feats; only getting 1 lvl 6 spell slot; losing the arty capstone and lvl 18 core enhs. Plus I think the Mechanic tree as a whole is fairly weak and taking T5 Rapid Fire from Mechanic means locking out the other T5s. I can't imagine playing a mostly-pure ranged arty w/out Tactical Mobility + RA Overcharge anymore.

    Someone claimed that Doubleshot bonus is spread across every bolt w/repeaters; e.g., if you have 15% Doubleshot total, each bolt in a 3-shot volley has 5% Doubleshot chance. No clue if that's true, but it's as good a rule of thumb as any.
    Fair enough. I like the sounds of a pure arty in shadowdancer. Getting evasion and a lot of defense from the left side of the tree. Human or half elf is the question now I suppose.

  15. #15
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linvak View Post
    I like the sounds of a pure arty in shadowdancer. Getting evasion and a lot of defense from the left side of the tree.
    My hunch is FotW or Shiradi is better DPS (depending on whether you're ranged-only or ranged+caster focused); but the survivability perks shouldn't be underestimated if you aren't getting them from elsewhere (Evasion, Shadow Form, ED immunity, etc.).
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  16. #16
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    Default OK, I see the problem now

    Someone asked for update on progress, so:

    I finally leveled up and ran a couple of Epic quests solo on normal. I quickly figured out I need 1) more spell slots, 2) better gear, 3) a serious re-evaluation of tactics.

    I'm going to use a LR+20 stone I have to shed the rogue, then play around the border (lvl 20 heroic and epic) for better gear and technique.

    Thanks for the help.

    Kraftwell/Cannith

  17. #17
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonoma View Post
    Someone asked for update on progress, so:

    I finally leveled up and ran a couple of Epic quests solo on normal. I quickly figured out I need 1) more spell slots, 2) better gear, 3) a serious re-evaluation of tactics.

    I'm going to use a LR+20 stone I have to shed the rogue, then play around the border (lvl 20 heroic and epic) for better gear and technique.

    Thanks for the help.

    Kraftwell/Cannith
    I am currently running 10 Rogue 4 Artificer 6 Wizard Shadarkai built in EE.

    I am very well geared not 100% but, I've been playing EE on Arti based builds since Update 20.

    My past couple builds only had 6 Arti and focused entirely on Repeater damage ignoring spell casting healing with scrolls and rejuvenation Cocoon.

    Just, putting it out there that pure Arti is not the only option rogue can be a fine compliment

  18. #18
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linvak View Post
    Venomed blades does work on ranged.


    Also, what are people's ideas on 5 rogue and 10% doubleshot?

    Have we confirmed the penalty of doubleshotting with a repeater? When I was leveling up a rogue with only the 10% I was getting an unusual amount of double shots even into my 2nd and 3rd bolt.
    venomed blades works on repeater

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