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  1. #1
    Community Member Texturace's Avatar
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    Default Ranger (9), monk (6), wizard (5). Some help please.

    Just a disclaimer, I'm not sure if this is the right place to put this so mods please move this if it's in the wrong spot.


    So i almost have enough tokens to TR, yay, but i don't know what build to do next. I definitely want a monk archer, but the build itself is the tricky part. ThIs life, I'm a pure 20 monk. I want a ranger past life so ranger would have to be the highest stat. I'm thinking of starting of 5 wizard for the permanent tenser's transformation. 6 Monk gives me the second level stances and i end with 9 ranger. I know I'm missing out on improved evasion, but I want ranger PL. Any class leveling order suggestions or level redistribution?

    Oh a few more things, I'm planning on going half elf with rogue dilettante. However, I'm open to suggestions
    Last edited by 200223160; 04-10-2014 at 08:56 PM.

  2. #2
    Community Member Coyopa's Avatar
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    Well, I would recommend going at least 11 ranger because you get Improved Precise Shot for free. This makes you much more potent as an archer and, if you opt not to take IPS, then you really are gimping your build. Also, rangers get the feat for free without having to have a 19 dexterity. So, while you can get it without going 11 ranger, it imposes a high dexterity requirement. I've not yet built (and probably will not build) a monkcher and so I don't know how high a dex these characters end up with.

    As far as 6 monk goes, that's a good plan because you get Adept of Forms for free. If you take the monk levels early enough, you can also get Master and Grandmaster of Forms (depending how much you wish to invest, feat-wise). I have a 12 ranger/7 monk/1 rogue that runs in the Fire Grandmaster stance for the 25% healing amp from Jidz-Tet'ka. I am not sure what stance would most benefit a monkcher, but I could see earth stance or possibly wind stance, both of which get a big bump by taking Master of Forms.

    I can't see there being enough synergy to take 5 levels of wizard just so you can spend 30 to get Tenser's Transformation without having to scroll it. I also cannot see how you'll end up having 30 AP to waste in the Eldritch Knight tree to get that enhancement - which you will not even be able to get until character level 12. Most of what you'd get from the EK tree is going to be pointless on a monkcher. I would suggest to go poking around https://www.ddo.com/forums/forumdisplay.php/21-Classes and its sub-forums to find a good monkcher build to start from. Remember that you need to focus on ranged attack speed, ranged attack damage, and doubleshot percentage, among other things. Eldritch Knight does not offer enough synergy to make 5 wizard worthwhile.

    Consider 12 ranger/6 monk/2 fighter. Taking the 12th level of ranger gets you a second third level spell, one of which will be Cure Moderate Wounds. On my 12/7/1 ranger/monk/rogue above, I took Cure Moderate Wounds and Neutralize Poison because potions of neutralize poison do not offer the short-lived immunity the spell does. Having CMW will help your self-healing abilities a bit. Two levels of fighter gets you two feats for free. I would probably level in one of these orders:

    Option 1: Ranger, Monk (2nd through 7th levels), Ranger (8th through 14th levels), Fighter, Fighter, Ranger (to 20)
    Option 2: Ranger, Monk (2nd through 7th levels), Ranger (8th through 14th levels), Fighter, Ranger (16th and 17th level), Fighter, Ranger (to 20)
    Option 3: Ranger (1st through 6th levels), Monk (7th through 12th levels), Ranger (13th and 14th level), Fighter, FIghter, Ranger (to 20)
    Option 4: Ranger (1st through 6th levels), Monk (7th through 12th levels), Ranger (13th and 14th level), Fighter, Ranger (16th and 17th level), Fighter, Ranger (to 20)

    Personally, I like options 3 and 4 the best because this lets you get some ranger levels under your belt and opens up the trees for you. Monk 7th to 12th levels enables you to take Master of Forms at level 12 at the same time you get Adept of Forms, giving you a really big upgrade to your stance. Late fighter levels ensure you have the base attack bonus for whatever bonus feat you want to take. Fighters can get Improved Critical as a bonus feat. You'll need Zen Archery somewhere along the way to stay centered while using bows, but this can be taken as a monk bonus feat at Monk Level 1, Monk Level 2, or Monk Level 6. You are also going to need Ten Thousand Stars (unless this has changed recently) and this can be taken as the monk bonus feat at Monk Level 6. So, I would plan to get Zen Archery probably right at level 7 (Monk Level 1) and that way it is out of the way.

    This is pretty much all the information I have for you and all the advice I can offer. You are going to have to search the forums and ask advice from others who have built these characters and are therefore more knowledgeable about them than I.

  3. #3
    Community Member Coyopa's Avatar
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    When it comes to race, the half-elf dilettante feat isn't going to be worth much because you won't be able to do traps and you will likely be outside of sneak attack range, rendering the sneak damage moot - which it mostly is anyway since it's just 1d6 sneak damage. Yes, you can get extended sneak attack range with Deepwood Sniper, but you'll probably be mostly investing in Arcane Archer and it is not likely you'll end up with many AP left over for Deepwood Sniper.

    I would say either take human for the extra feat at level 1 (and the extra skill point every level) or go elf for the elven enhancements that add to your longbow or shortbow damage (you choose) and the possibility of using dexterity to damage for these weapons, as well. Longswords are paired with longbows in the elf racial tree. So, if you go longbow and longsword, you can take Weapon Focus: Slashing and Whirling Steel Strike to stay centered with longswords (if this interests you, but I can honestly say you shouldn't do this because it costs too much even though it adds flavor). Shortbows are paired with scimitars, rapiers and shortswords and this might be a better choice if you want to use armed combat instead of unarmed combat. This is because Ninja Spy enhancements let you stay centered with shortswords and that does not cost you any feats (and you'll probably get this anyway, making it free to you).

  4. #4
    Community Member Ivan_Milic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyopa View Post
    Well, I would recommend going at least 11 ranger because you get Improved Precise Shot for free. This makes you much more potent as an archer and, if you opt not to take IPS, then you really are gimping your build. Also, rangers get the feat for free without having to have a 19 dexterity. So, while you can get it without going 11 ranger, it imposes a high dexterity requirement. I've not yet built (and probably will not build) a monkcher and so I don't know how high a dex these characters end up with.
    You gonna need 21 dex for combat archery.
    Idk if he will play epics or not, if he doesnt want to play epics then going twf will be better.

  5. #5
    Community Member Coyopa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan_Milic View Post
    You gonna need 21 dex for combat archery.
    Idk if he will play epics or not, if he doesnt want to play epics then going twf will be better.
    This is a good point about Combat Archery and something I was not thinking of when I wrote my posts. So, thank you for pointing it out because it would suck for him to get there and then discover he is short on dexterity. I doubt whether he decides to play into the epic levels will change his mind much on being a ranged character since he specifically stated he wants a monkcher. Still, solid advice on your part.

  6. #6
    Community Member Texturace's Avatar
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    Okay so I see how much of a waste wizard would be and that it works great if you just get Tenser's for free w/o needing to invest any AP. How would I not be in sneak attack range? Monkchers still need to melee. In addition I don't really care about the ranger spells, sure there's some nice utility, but I see the main value being at ranger level 8. 6 monk is definately great for the extra stances, I would assume to hit grandmaster you would need to take 1 level of monk a bit later, and FYI it's mostly Ocean/Mountain Stance on monkchers. I'm going to go Ocean stance probably. However with 8 ranger 6 monk, there's 6 levels left. You made a great point about the improved precise shot, I probably wouldn't have any issues (+3 tome on all stats, loot is OP), but the free feat is nice. The rogue dilletante again would only be for sneak attack damage and I probably won't invest too heavily into any one tree. For example on my Shintao Monk atm I got a bunch of "useless" enchantments just to unlock the higher level ones and even then I only grabbed 1 or 2. So I'll take another look at the deepwood sniper range for SA, but the fact that 30-40% of the time I'll be wailing on them with handwraps means that it can help a lot. One thing you also forgot to mention was come level 11 there's also Greater Two Weapon Fighting. So that means I'm definitely getting 11 ranger. 11 ranger, 6 monk, 3 left. Now I don't think I'll have the character stat points available to make last the last 3 levels in rogue or artificer (something with utility like that useful). And looking now with Imp. Evasion at level 9, it should definitely be 11 Ranger, 9 Monk, so does anyone know any good places to look or any guidelines to follow?

  7. #7
    Community Member Texturace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan_Milic View Post
    You gonna need 21 dex for combat archery.
    Idk if he will play epics or not, if he doesnt want to play epics then going twf will be better.
    I'm think of the stat points being 16 Str (-10 points), 15 Dex (-8), 14 con (-6), 16 Wis (-10). This gives 34 points which I will have when TR'ing.

    I have +3 Tomes for All Stats.

    19 Str, 18 Dex, 17 con, 19 wis, (11 int and cha)

    the 11 int also gives me the combat tactics or whatever for improved trip/sunder.

    Now I would only need 3 dex, and as a half elf, I can get the free dexterity in the elven stat bonus tree and in some of the ranger trees if I'm not mistaken. The worst case scenario would be putting a level up into dex to get combat archery. I have no problem with Epics, I find them amazingly fun. Currently 20 Monk 4 Epic. So like I mentioned earlier 11 Ranger 9 Monk seems like the way to go. Gives Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Evasion, Improved Precise Shot. Those are all huge things. So do you have any ideas from there?

    Thanks in Advance

  8. #8
    Community Member Ivan_Milic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 200223160 View Post
    Okay so I see how much of a waste wizard would be and that it works great if you just get Tenser's for free w/o needing to invest any AP. How would I not be in sneak attack range? Monkchers still need to melee. In addition I don't really care about the ranger spells, sure there's some nice utility, but I see the main value being at ranger level 8. 6 monk is definately great for the extra stances, I would assume to hit grandmaster you would need to take 1 level of monk a bit later, and FYI it's mostly Ocean/Mountain Stance on monkchers. I'm going to go Ocean stance probably. However with 8 ranger 6 monk, there's 6 levels left. You made a great point about the improved precise shot, I probably wouldn't have any issues (+3 tome on all stats, loot is OP), but the free feat is nice. The rogue dilletante again would only be for sneak attack damage and I probably won't invest too heavily into any one tree. For example on my Shintao Monk atm I got a bunch of "useless" enchantments just to unlock the higher level ones and even then I only grabbed 1 or 2. So I'll take another look at the deepwood sniper range for SA, but the fact that 30-40% of the time I'll be wailing on them with handwraps means that it can help a lot. One thing you also forgot to mention was come level 11 there's also Greater Two Weapon Fighting. So that means I'm definitely getting 11 ranger. 11 ranger, 6 monk, 3 left. Now I don't think I'll have the character stat points available to make last the last 3 levels in rogue or artificer (something with utility like that useful). And looking now with Imp. Evasion at level 9, it should definitely be 11 Ranger, 9 Monk, so does anyone know any good places to look or any guidelines to follow?
    Monkchers dont melee.

  9. #9
    Community Member Ivan_Milic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 200223160 View Post
    I'm think of the stat points being 16 Str (-10 points), 15 Dex (-8), 14 con (-6), 16 Wis (-10). This gives 34 points which I will have when TR'ing.

    I have +3 Tomes for All Stats.

    19 Str, 18 Dex, 17 con, 19 wis, (11 int and cha)

    the 11 int also gives me the combat tactics or whatever for improved trip/sunder.

    Now I would only need 3 dex, and as a half elf, I can get the free dexterity in the elven stat bonus tree and in some of the ranger trees if I'm not mistaken. The worst case scenario would be putting a level up into dex to get combat archery. I have no problem with Epics, I find them amazingly fun. Currently 20 Monk 4 Epic. So like I mentioned earlier 11 Ranger 9 Monk seems like the way to go. Gives Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Evasion, Improved Precise Shot. Those are all huge things. So do you have any ideas from there?

    Thanks in Advance
    You need 21 base dex for combat archery, that means only points you put in dex and tomes count, dex from enhancements dont count.
    You dont need improved evasion, should have great saves with this build, so can go 11 ranger, 6 monk and 3 whatever, pally for saves, or fighter for dmg.

  10. #10
    Community Member Coyopa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 200223160 View Post
    Okay so I see how much of a waste wizard would be and that it works great if you just get Tenser's for free w/o needing to invest any AP. How would I not be in sneak attack range? Monkchers still need to melee. In addition I don't really care about the ranger spells, sure there's some nice utility, but I see the main value being at ranger level 8. 6 monk is definately great for the extra stances, I would assume to hit grandmaster you would need to take 1 level of monk a bit later, and FYI it's mostly Ocean/Mountain Stance on monkchers. I'm going to go Ocean stance probably. However with 8 ranger 6 monk, there's 6 levels left. You made a great point about the improved precise shot, I probably wouldn't have any issues (+3 tome on all stats, loot is OP), but the free feat is nice. The rogue dilletante again would only be for sneak attack damage and I probably won't invest too heavily into any one tree. For example on my Shintao Monk atm I got a bunch of "useless" enchantments just to unlock the higher level ones and even then I only grabbed 1 or 2. So I'll take another look at the deepwood sniper range for SA, but the fact that 30-40% of the time I'll be wailing on them with handwraps means that it can help a lot. One thing you also forgot to mention was come level 11 there's also Greater Two Weapon Fighting. So that means I'm definitely getting 11 ranger. 11 ranger, 6 monk, 3 left. Now I don't think I'll have the character stat points available to make last the last 3 levels in rogue or artificer (something with utility like that useful). And looking now with Imp. Evasion at level 9, it should definitely be 11 Ranger, 9 Monk, so does anyone know any good places to look or any guidelines to follow?
    Maybe you will be sneak attack range, then. However, the point still stands that half elf for rogue dilettante (well, really, any dilettante) is pointless. 1d6 sneak damage is nothing and certainly not worth giving up the benefits of being any other race than half elf - particularly human or elf, which are the two races I would choose between were I to build this myself.

    You can scroll Tenser's if you get a high enough UMD, but going wizard and spending all those AP is a bad choice.

    The main value in ranger is ranger level 11 where you get greater two weapon fighting and improved precise shot for free. The fact you also get Cure Moderate Wounds is a bonus. Furthermore, by going at least 10 levels of ranger, you get an additional favored enemy, which grants you an extra +2 damage against both of your previously selected favored enemies and against your Ranger Level 10 selected enemy. You need to visit http://ddowiki.com/page/Ranger and learn a bit more about rangers before you so quickly dismiss the value of the extra levels.

    You do not need to take more than 6 levels of monk. Really, you only need to take 1 level of monk and you can choose Adept of Forms at character level 6 (and later), Master of Forms at character level 12 (and later), and Grandmaster of Forms at character level 18 (and later). So, with a 6 level investment in monk, you get Adept of Forms for free, three martial feats, and you can still choose Master and Grandmaster of Forms as feats at 12+ and 18+, respectively. If you are in Ocean stance, then your ki regeneration will be higher and you will not need to melee as much - meaning you may not stay in sneak attack range. I have a 25 monk in GM Ocean Stance (primarily) who has 445 maximum ki and can stand around doing nothing and still regenerate ki until he has 93% of that (~413 ki of 445 ki for those of you following along at home). His maximum ki regeneration rate (when his current ki is lower than his concentration skill score) is +9.

    I cannot express clearly enough that 1d6 sneak attack damage is basically nothing. Unless you really make some kind of investment to get sneak damage up, by going halfling and/or by investing heavily into Deepwood Sniper, then 1d6 sneak damage by itself is not worth the feat.

    Also, you don't need Improved Evasion. You'll probably need the feats from fighter, however. Anyway, do some research and some learning about the classes you plan to mix and you'll be able to get a build together that suits you.

    http://ddowiki.com/page/Monk
    http://ddowiki.com/page/Fighter

  11. #11
    Community Member Texturace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan_Milic View Post
    You need 21 base dex for combat archery, that means only points you put in dex and tomes count, dex from enhancements dont count.
    You dont need improved evasion, should have great saves with this build, so can go 11 ranger, 6 monk and 3 whatever, pally for saves, or fighter for dmg.
    could you show me a sample build to see exactly where the saves are at to see what I'd want?

    [EDIT] I'm thinking just paladin to have insane saves
    Last edited by 200223160; 04-11-2014 at 07:21 AM.

  12. #12
    Community Member Ivan_Milic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyopa View Post
    Maybe you will be sneak attack range, then. However, the point still stands that half elf for rogue dilettante (well, really, any dilettante) is pointless. 1d6 sneak damage is nothing and certainly not worth giving up the benefits of being any other race than half elf - particularly human or elf, which are the two races I would choose between were I to build this myself.

    You can scroll Tenser's if you get a high enough UMD, but going wizard and spending all those AP is a bad choice.

    The main value in ranger is ranger level 11 where you get greater two weapon fighting and improved precise shot for free. The fact you also get Cure Moderate Wounds is a bonus. Furthermore, by going at least 10 levels of ranger, you get an additional favored enemy, which grants you an extra +2 damage against both of your previously selected favored enemies and against your Ranger Level 10 selected enemy. You need to visit http://ddowiki.com/page/Ranger and learn a bit more about rangers before you so quickly dismiss the value of the extra levels.

    You do not need to take more than 6 levels of monk. Really, you only need to take 1 level of monk and you can choose Adept of Forms at character level 6 (and later), Master of Forms at character level 12 (and later), and Grandmaster of Forms at character level 18 (and later). So, with a 6 level investment in monk, you get Adept of Forms for free, three martial feats, and you can still choose Master and Grandmaster of Forms as feats at 12+ and 18+, respectively. If you are in Ocean stance, then your ki regeneration will be higher and you will not need to melee as much - meaning you may not stay in sneak attack range. I have a 25 monk in GM Ocean Stance (primarily) who has 445 maximum ki and can stand around doing nothing and still regenerate ki until he has 93% of that (~413 ki of 445 ki for those of you following along at home). His maximum ki regeneration rate (when his current ki is lower than his concentration skill score) is +9.

    I cannot express clearly enough that 1d6 sneak attack damage is basically nothing. Unless you really make some kind of investment to get sneak damage up, by going halfling and/or by investing heavily into Deepwood Sniper, then 1d6 sneak damage by itself is not worth the feat.

    Also, you don't need Improved Evasion. You'll probably need the feats from fighter, however. Anyway, do some research and some learning about the classes you plan to mix and you'll be able to get a build together that suits you.

    http://ddowiki.com/page/Monk
    http://ddowiki.com/page/Fighter
    Grandmaster isnt worth it, you can get a lot of sneak attack damage from ninja spy tree.
    Why do people think monkchers melee?

  13. #13
    Community Member Ivan_Milic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 200223160 View Post
    could you show me a sample build to see exactly where the saves are at to see what I'd want?
    I dont know if there is a build like that on forums, you will have to look, but I have a build from a friend, 11 rgr/6 mnk/3 ftr, has saves around 50 in mountain stance at lvl 28.

  14. #14
    Community Member Coyopa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 200223160 View Post
    I'm think of the stat points being 16 Str (-10 points), 15 Dex (-8), 14 con (-6), 16 Wis (-10). This gives 34 points which I will have when TR'ing.
    Monkchers need high wisdom and high dexterity. Every character needs high con (which you have not neglected, I'm just pointing it out). Ivan has made the point about Combat Archery and he is right. Also, he is again right that monkchers don't melee, as a rule. There may be times you will, but only to build up enough ki for Ten Thousand Stars or some other monk ability.

    the 11 int also gives me the combat tactics or whatever for improved trip/sunder.
    LOL! Combat Expertise? Really? Pfff. Improved Trip and Sunder? Again. Pfff. You won't be using these and they are going to be a waste of feat (or feats).

    Now I would only need 3 dex, and as a half elf, I can get the free dexterity in the elven stat bonus tree and in some of the ranger trees if I'm not mistaken. The worst case scenario would be putting a level up into dex to get combat archery. I have no problem with Epics, I find them amazingly fun. Currently 20 Monk 4 Epic. So like I mentioned earlier 11 Ranger 9 Monk seems like the way to go. Gives Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Evasion, Improved Precise Shot. Those are all huge things. So do you have any ideas from there?

    Thanks in Advance
    As already pointed out by Ivan, dexterity acquired from enhancements does not count toward qualifying you for feats. The same is true for any stat benefiting from enhancements. I cannot stress this enough and so I am going to put it in bold, underline it and italicize it: Three extra levels of monk offers you NOTHING. However, a 12th level of ranger gives you access to another core enhancement in whichever tree(s) you invest, as well as another 3rd level spell. Two levels of fighter gives you two extra feats - which you are highly likely to need. Even if you don't need the feats, two levels of paladin would be a better choice than 2 extra levels of monk.

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    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    nm
    I gave up a life of farming to become an Adventurer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  16. #16
    Community Member Ivan_Milic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyopa View Post
    Monkchers need high wisdom and high dexterity. Every character needs high con (which you have not neglected, I'm just pointing it out). Ivan has made the point about Combat Archery and he is right. Also, he is again right that monkchers don't melee, as a rule. There may be times you will, but only to build up enough ki for Ten Thousand Stars or some other monk ability.

    You will have ki regeneration from contemplation, monkchers dont melee.
    YOu need 21 dex, thats it, depending on what gear and pl you have you can dump con to 10, but this is only for people with completionist or more than one primal epl.

  17. #17
    Community Member Texturace's Avatar
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    So I'm leaning towards 11 R - 6 M - 3 Paladin, but why won't monkchers melee at all? Wouldn't there be some points where you have to? And wouldn't grandmaster ocean stance be like a million times better than adept ocean stance? In addition with bow strength AND the offchance that I might melee, wouldn't it be better to have a higher strength, or atleast a strength decent with the -2 from Ocean stance?

    I think another big question would be, where would the BAB be. With many shot you'd want 16+ for four arrow right? So would paladin give me enough BAB or would I need the fighter to get it?
    Last edited by 200223160; 04-11-2014 at 07:34 AM.

  18. #18
    Community Member Ivan_Milic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 200223160 View Post
    So I'm leaning towards 11 R - 6 M - 3 Paladin, but why won't monkchers melee at all? Wouldn't there be some points where you have to? And wouldn't grandmaster ocean stance be like a million times better than adept ocean stance? In addition with bow strength AND the offchance that I might melee, wouldn't it be better to have a higher strength, or atleast a strength decent with the -2 from Ocean stance?
    Because you are cycling through 10k and manyshot, you dont have time to melee, or you are gimping your dps.
    Adept of forms is given automatically at monk lvl 6, after you get it you take master of forms, grandmaster doesnt give you that much over master.
    Yes, you need high str.

    You will have enough bab in epics.

  19. #19
    Community Member Coyopa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 200223160 View Post
    So I'm leaning towards 11 R - 6 M - 3 Paladin, but why won't monkchers melee at all? Wouldn't there be some points where you have to?
    The only reason they would need to melee is to build ki, but with GM Ocean Stance this is not needed (which is why I had previously said "may").

    And wouldn't grandmaster ocean stance be like a million times better than adept ocean stance?
    Yes, this is why I recommended 6 levels of monk from 7 to 12 (because you can take Master of Forms right away at level 12, then, since you get Adept of Forms for free) and fighter at 15 and 18 (because at 18 you can get Grandmaster of Forms and still take some other martial feat that you might need). The level of fighter at 15 lets you take two feats then, too. You do not need any more monk than 6 levels to achieve this. As I previously stated, you really only need ONE level of monk and you can *still* get Grandmaster of Forms at character level 18. Please note: There is a difference between "character level" and "class level". As long as your character is 18 in any combination of classes (one being monk), you can take Grandmaster of Forms (provided you already have Adept and Master).

  20. #20
    Community Member Texturace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan_Milic View Post
    Because you are cycling through 10k and manyshot, you dont have time to melee, or you are gimping your dps.
    Adept of forms is given automatically at monk lvl 6, after you get it you take master of forms, grandmaster doesnt give you that much over master.
    Yes, you need high str.
    Even cycling through those 2, wouldn't I only have something up 30 seconds out of a minute, or have both those on back to back so 1 minute out of 2? Wouldn't that mean half the time my ranged DPS is lacking anyways?
    Grandmaster Ocean Stance over Master = +1 wis, +1% dodge, +1 to all saving throws. Wouldn't those all be of use in just being able to survive? Wouldn't the extra wisdom itself be worth it? Again I'm still relatively new.

    Sorry about sounding really skeptical, trying to get everything right in my head first.

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