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  1. #1
    Community Member knightgf's Avatar
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    Default What if Epic levels involved no Epic Destinies?

    Here's a rather interesting question:

    Let's say that the epic destiny system was NOT in place for DDO. Instead, epic levels were treated as such in the d20srd open source book, which, to sum it up, would mean that Epic levels would be like heroic levels, but with a bit of spice. More details below:


    • While your advancement of BaB's, saves, ability score increases, feats, and HP would remain as it is in-game, you'd still have limited skill points.
    • You don't gain a 'generic' epic level; instead, it remains the same as before: Talk to a trainer to level up when you get enough XP.
    • All classes would gain a bonus feat if they hit the right epic level for their class. Some are shared, while others are unique to that class.
    • You would gain action points as usual for your enhancements; not sure about the XP curve.
    • Spellcasters would be capable of learning spells beyond their class levels (I.E.: Wizards could learn 10th level spells, paladins 5th, bard's 7th, exc.)


    Would it be better overall than the current Epic Destiny system we have in place? Or worse?
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  2. #2
    Community Member Rykka's Avatar
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    Personally I'd be fine if we were capped at 20 and the level 21+ stuff was just a test at how good you were.

    But I don't see any particular reason that anything needs to change. This game is about grinding. Just like all MMOs

  3. #3
    Community Member Book_O_Dragons's Avatar
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    The biggest problem with porting 3.5 epic lvls over to DDO is that without a more generous progression than a fighter and evasion available without multiclassing everyone WILL take 21st lvl in another class because of the frontloading issues involved in the current game. In 3.5 you could take either the epic progression or multiclass into another class at it's heroic progression.
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  4. #4
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    *shrugs shoulders*

    I don't know. It's a question of whether you want more versatility in your characters or more clearly defined class roles and party synergies.

    The biggest strength of the ED system is also it's biggest downfall. It provides so much versatility and customization that lines between the classes have been blurred. Everyone is similar to everyone else. Everyone does DPS, everyone does some CC, everyone self-heals, ect. Characters are no longer different and unique. Instead of being very strong in certain areas and very weak in others, all characters are now pretty good or very good at everything. Party synergies are largely gone.

    I see this as more boring than having clearly defined class roles, but I completely understand others that disagree and love having the ability to customize their character to the fullest, even if it means a loss of class diversity within the game.

    It just a question of whether you want customization or class diversity. I'd prefer more diversity myself. I think EDs went too far with character customization.

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  5. #5
    Community Member Ausdoerrt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post
    I see this as more boring than having clearly defined class roles, but I completely understand others that disagree and love having the ability to customize their character to the fullest, even if it means a loss of class diversity within the game.
    There's another way to look at this. You can have clearly defined party roles without mandatory class roles, as many MMOs do. The bigger question is how content is structured - to encourage versatility or specialization. So far it looks more in favor of versatility/self-sufficiency.

    And TBH, Monk class began undermining that "class role hierarchy" way before EDs were introduced. And if you think about it, PnP DnD was also more about party roles not class roles.
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  6. #6
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    EDs were a mistake in hindsight, but hindsight is a cruel mistress.

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  7. #7
    Community Member Grimlock's Avatar
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    Do we really think that Turbine can remove Epic Destinies from the game and somehow balance mobs to scale back to a reasonable level? Do we really want to deal with a year of them trying to find this balance instead of developing new Forgotten Realms content? Wouldn't it be better to invest labor and development resources on new products rather than the past mistakes of trying to work on old content?

    Turbine has rewritten the enhancement/destiny/class/mechanic system of the game so many times and each time it has created more problems with the game and detracted from what should be the main goal of an mmo - develop new content. Wasting time on rewriting the rules and revamping areas the Gianthold (Land of Everpurple), or Three Barrel Cove is a waste of time. Redoing the game mechanics in the twilight phase of this mmo is a waste of time. The shelf life of DDO will continue to diminish. Turbine should focus on more Forgotten Realms content and the final level 30 cap and start giving thought to how they can transition this game into a D&D Next friendly mmo centering around Forgotten Realms, and then phasing in other campaigns that will roll out with D&D Next so the mmo and game can combine their marketing resources and get people to play both systems.
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  8. #8
    Community Member Kalimah's Avatar
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    Are ED's still a buy in option? I know when they first came out you had to purchase them and a lot of folks just didnt. Honestly, I dont remember the last time I saw an epic player without his ED so it may have been included at some point (drawing a blank thinking about it) but I remember early on some folks just didnt do EDs.

    But...if you just wnat to show how pimp you are, you can always just not claim a destiny
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post
    The biggest strength of the ED system is also it's biggest downfall. It provides so much versatility and customization that lines between the classes have been blurred. Everyone is similar to everyone else. Everyone does DPS, everyone does some CC, everyone self-heals, ect. Characters are no longer different and unique. Instead of being very strong in certain areas and very weak in others, all characters are now pretty good or very good at everything. Party synergies are largely gone.
    Ahh this reminds me of when they added dots into the game. You had some people cheering their arcanes/divines could now do everything, and you had other people saying turbine...why...you just took away the one big disadvantage those classes had even though they had tons of other advantages. Unfortunately, this problem has been going on for longer then ED's have been around, ED's just compound the problem with stacking bonuses that are making things like dcs/saves just like the old ac system, where if you are on the lower end of the spectrum adding maybe +5 will make you go from success on a 17 to success on a 12, you just end up not even noticing a difference because you aren't within 5 points of registering on a 1d20 roll no matter what you roll.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalimah View Post
    Are ED's still a buy in option? I know when they first came out you had to purchase them and a lot of folks just didnt. Honestly, I dont remember the last time I saw an epic player without his ED so it may have been included at some point (drawing a blank thinking about it) but I remember early on some folks just didnt do EDs.

    But...if you just wnat to show how pimp you are, you can always just not claim a destiny
    Lol you should read some of the threads where people complain about running off destinies that grant them minimal usable bonuses and not having maxxed fate points, then suggest again people play with no destiny:P

  11. #11
    Community Member Avenging_Angel's Avatar
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    It would be incredibly boring, since there is very little notable progression beyond 20. The core books are not balanced to progress beyond 20. I think EDs are a good solution: you feel like you are unlocking new stuff just as you progress with heroic enhancements, but with more flexibility, so that class/roles are even more blurry.
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    No matter what you post, there is always someone who responds with something like "Unless you are gimped, you should be able to do this with your eyes closed and one hand tied behind your back." It gets a little tiresome.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalimah View Post
    Are ED's still a buy in option? I know when they first came out you had to purchase them and a lot of folks just didnt. Honestly, I dont remember the last time I saw an epic player without his ED so it may have been included at some point (drawing a blank thinking about it) but I remember early on some folks just didnt do EDs.

    But...if you just wnat to show how pimp you are, you can always just not claim a destiny
    Yes you still have to buy them I don't have them on my premium account and don't miss them since I don't run epics with that account.

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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post
    The biggest strength of the ED system is also it's biggest downfall. It provides so much versatility and customization that lines between the classes have been blurred. Everyone is similar to everyone else. Everyone does DPS, everyone does some CC, everyone self-heals, ect. Characters are no longer different and unique. Instead of being very strong in certain areas and very weak in others, all characters are now pretty good or very good at everything. Party synergies are largely gone.
    But I think this is appropriate for hero characters. At a certain point a hero should grow strong and versatile enough that he doesn't necessarily need "support". Why does it matter that the party doesn't need dedicated healing or CC, etc? Eventually the healer will run out of healing perks to take and will be forced to round out the character with something else - the dedicated support characters will also become versatile. For players that prefer to only play support, they should probably be with a static group or guild anyway to be sure to have all the "assigned roles".

  14. #14
    Community Member Kalimah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McFlay View Post
    Lol you should read some of the threads where people complain about running off destinies that grant them minimal usable bonuses and not having maxxed fate points, then suggest again people play with no destiny:P
    Quote Originally Posted by Uska View Post
    Yes you still have to buy them I don't have them on my premium account and don't miss them since I don't run epics with that account.
    Yeah I thought that was still the case. And I used to play with a dude who made it up to like lvl 23 with no eds. He was so gimp its not even fair to gimps to say he was gimp

    Again thoguh, I love EDs. I dont have a problem at all with the game as it is..fix bugs but dont reboot the whole dang process at this late stage. But that said, if you want to prove you are the pimp gimp you have the right to customize your build to not ever take an ED. I love the ability to decide how to build..I can make a gimp or I can make one that is very strong..or I can make one that does a specific task....or I can make one that does no tasks but die (piker builds are the shizzle).
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  15. #15
    Community Member Tinco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avenging_Angel View Post
    It would be incredibly boring, since there is very little notable progression beyond 20. The core books are not balanced to progress beyond 20. I think EDs are a good solution: you feel like you are unlocking new stuff just as you progress with heroic enhancements, but with more flexibility, so that class/roles are even more blurry.
    I completely agree, any system is better than the written Epic Levels of DnD 3(.5). I don't think ED's are a perfect solution in any shape or form but the system certainly has its own merits and is pretty fun in its best moments.

    Last thing we need(ed) is the utter insult that is epic spellcasting as written or the completely boring progression of martial characters. DnD 3.5 rules just fold beyond level 15 (imo) to a point where the system can't really handle the pinata anymore that certain archetypes almost necessarily stumble upon.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    But I think this is appropriate for hero characters. At a certain point a hero should grow strong and versatile enough that he doesn't necessarily need "support". Why does it matter that the party doesn't need dedicated healing or CC, etc?
    Like I said, it depends on what you value in the game, class versatility or class diversity. For those who favor class versatility it's not a problem and it's preferable. For those like me, who would rather see class diversity it is boring when everyone is the same. For us we would rather have weakness and strengths for each class. The fun and challenge comes in having the party members' different strengths cover each others' weaknesses. In today's game with everyone able to do everything, DDO has become much less of a multiplayer game and more of a game where 6 people solo quests together moreso than actually having to work as a team. DDO was never completely a team game as the classes have never been balanced and versatle builds have always existed (I prefer some versatility and multi-classing, it's not like I'm advocating all pure builds), but EDs brought it to a whole new level which for me crossed the line. And I'm not saying this change was the wrong path to take the game, just not the one I'd personally have preferred.
    Last edited by axel15810; 04-10-2014 at 01:12 PM.

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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by knightgf View Post
    Let's say that the epic destiny system was NOT in place for DDO. Instead, epic levels were treated as such in the d20srd open source book
    <snip>
    Would it be better overall than the current Epic Destiny system we have in place? Or worse?
    I think that would have been a much better original implementation of Epic than what we got in MotU.

    But, also, I don't think we should try to change what we have to that; it would be far more trouble than it's worth.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post
    *shrugs shoulders*

    I don't know. It's a question of whether you want more versatility in your characters or more clearly defined class roles and party synergies.

    The biggest strength of the ED system is also it's biggest downfall. It provides so much versatility and customization that lines between the classes have been blurred. Everyone is similar to everyone else. Everyone does DPS, everyone does some CC, everyone self-heals, ect. Characters are no longer different and unique. Instead of being very strong in certain areas and very weak in others, all characters are now pretty good or very good at everything. Party synergies are largely gone.

    I see this as more boring than having clearly defined class roles, but I completely understand others that disagree and love having the ability to customize their character to the fullest, even if it means a loss of class diversity within the game.

    It just a question of whether you want customization or class diversity. I'd prefer more diversity myself. I think EDs went too far with character customization.
    Class diversity is great if you happen to play in a static group like nearly all PnP is played. But DDO, and MMO's in general aren't primarily played this way. So that class diversity/specialization actually gets in the way of a lot of game play.

  19. #19
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    No EDs -> I'd be TRing faster

  20. #20
    Community Member Seikojin's Avatar
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    ED, like a few mentioned, remove a lot of the specialization. This is a double edged sword. I see the boon of ed's in this way: You can be a melee mage in build, and fine tune melee mage with the right ed's and twists. Essentially ED's are a less strict enhancement tree system.

    I think it would be better if they had spheres in destinies that offered that flexibility, but you were restricted to the sphere based on your class. So martial classes could only take martial spheres, and they had 4-6 destinies instead of 3. Or if you were a tempest warpriest mechanic, you could take a destiny from the divine or martial spheres and twist from them.

    This would limit flexibility of top end, but it would specialize more like we have in heroics.

    Ultimately, it looks like top end, you will be very strong in one major role, and have utility in all other areas. Still useful in group settings, where you form 2 man teams to tackle a complex situation.

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