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  1. #41
    Death's Dominator Eth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
    Heh The day that happens I'll stop playing Rangers.
    Do it then. Mid 60s to 70s DCs is possible. Add in PDK for Cha to Att/Dam and you also get the Heal Spell on a pure spellsinger. Tada - a Bard that can do it all.
    Thelanis - Ethforged - Etherar - Fjirty --- Mitis Mors
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  2. #42
    Community Member Sokól's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    Do it then. Mid 60s to 70s DCs is possible. Add in PDK for Cha to Att/Dam and you also get the Heal Spell on a pure spellsinger. Tada - a Bard that can do it all.
    But they got stubby legs
    Argonnessen: Hilmir - Purkilius - Jinu - Vignir @ Blood Assassin´s

  3. #43
    Community Member TheLegendOfAra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pala-forged View Post
    Hell is freezing over soon, I think..
    Well, I have missed having a Winter... ;p

    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    Do it then. Mid 60s to 70s DCs is possible. Add in PDK for Cha to Att/Dam and you also get the Heal Spell on a pure spellsinger. Tada - a Bard that can do it all.
    Haha, good point; perhaps I can finally roll my second Pali life. I sure could use some more heal amp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sokól View Post
    But they got stubby legs
    And those shoulders. *shudders*
    They look as silly as Horcs, but without the scary face.
    Araphina Skycrow - 15Paladin/3Ranger/2Fighter (Life 8/25) 5xRanger, 3xPaladin
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    So even with the EA changes, Wizards are STILL ahead on the two most common arcane insta-kill and CC schools. While Sorcs are slightly ahead on the 2 typical nuking schools. I have no issue with that, whatsoever.

    Large max-DC disparities mean mob saves balanced for top DCs are nigh-unreachable by classes with much lower max DCs. Now, either class can viably be a DC-caster, which is a Good Thing (TM), IMO. Though Sorcs would really still have to struggle to get there (same as divines, really), due to being feat-starved.



    I'd agree with him too, if that was what he said. :-)

    Yes, they benefit. But they're not suddenly the new DC-caster uber-Lords.
    Not to mention the fact that a Sorc can only achieve necro DC OR enchant DC that high, not both together, simply because they wouldn't have enough feats to take all the spell focus and greater spell focus in 2 schools. And limited healing via scrolls (which sorcs don't get a boost in enhancement tree?). So, yeah, I really don't see any problem.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
    Well, I have missed having a Winter... ;p
    Same day as a pure paladin tank is useful ^^

  6. #46
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Sorc will lose considerable DPS gaining DC and healing capabilities. Sounds like a good trade off to me.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  7. #47
    Community Member Grimlock's Avatar
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    This is the never ending classic D&D/DDO debate - who is more powerful Sorcerers or Wizards.

    Over the years the scales have constantly gone back and forth while Turbine tries their best to balance things out. To me, as a player of this game and pnp Sorcerers have always been portrayed as an offensive caster, while the Wizard has always been a utility shed of a variety of spells.

    I fail to see the point if Sorcerers (or divines!) can get their spell DC's as high as a Wizards. Who cares?
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  8. #48
    Community Member Sokól's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimlock View Post
    This is the never ending classic D&D/DDO debate - who is more powerful Sorcerers or Wizards.

    Over the years the scales have constantly gone back and forth while Turbine tries their best to balance things out. To me, as a player of this game and pnp Sorcerers have always been portrayed as an offensive caster, while the Wizard has always been a utility shed of a variety of spells.

    I fail to see the point if Sorcerers (or divines!) can get their spell DC's as high as a Wizards. Who cares?
    In my opinion they compliment each other!
    Argonnessen: Hilmir - Purkilius - Jinu - Vignir @ Blood Assassin´s

  9. #49
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    Have you played a DC specced wizard in shiradi?
    yes, heck I think my Necro DC is 68 now in Shiradi. I'm just not a fan of the playstyle at all.

  10. #50
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Sorc will lose considerable DPS gaining DC and healing capabilities. Sounds like a good trade off to me.
    This.

    And they'd have to be a drow so no reconstruct (cocoon or scrolls for hjeals).

    And they'd need to pure so the saves would be pretty terrible.

    I can't call this OP at all.

  11. #51
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimlock View Post
    This is the never ending classic D&D/DDO debate - who is more powerful Sorcerers or Wizards.

    Over the years the scales have constantly gone back and forth while Turbine tries their best to balance things out. To me, as a player of this game and pnp Sorcerers have always been portrayed as an offensive caster, while the Wizard has always been a utility shed of a variety of spells.

    I fail to see the point if Sorcerers (or divines!) can get their spell DC's as high as a Wizards. Who cares?
    This is all theory crafting until we see it in action. And unlike Turbine's guys in charge of balancing stuff you need to look at how things work when it's all together.

    Angel Sorc versus Draconic Wizard (leaving out the MM spamming shirtardi builds as they are a different animal). How do those two stack up together?

  12. #52
    2015 DDO Players Council FuzzyDuck81's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    I'm not sure what you're seeing that's so powerful about Shadows. It's -2, SINGLE-TARGET, with a 20 second cool-down.

    For the same cost, 20 SP, any Wiz/Sorc could cast Fear, for an AoE -2 to saves with a 4 (or 2) second cool-down.

    For single-target comparison, Cause Fear is much cheaper and faster. Enervation is about the same cost, but faster and more effective.

    If it works on red-named, that's one good use for Shadows, but beyond that? Looks like garbage to me.
    -2, plus an extra -1 on every attack or spell that hits the enemy, capping out at an extra -10.. so -12 to saves? Presumably which stacks with other debuffs, eg. hypnotism? And if the effect stacks in the same way that, eg. scourge can max out its stack from a single cast of magic missiles (havent tested shadows myself yet), then thats a very powerful little combo for when you want to make sure something sticks.... i'm actually wondering how well it could work if, say, you were a monk with the wizard past life feat... soften up a difficult target with that, then go in with quivering palm? Could help make up nicely for sunder not boosting DCs any more.
    Last edited by FuzzyDuck81; 04-08-2014 at 08:42 AM.
    I don't mean to come across as unsympathetic - but I am, so I do.

  13. #53
    The Hatchery Wipey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
    They look as silly as Horcs, but without the scary face.
    I rather would have ****ed orangutan ( not really ) than crying sad face Quasimodo .
    Shahang Nezhat Bellezza Wipekin Farida of Ghallanda

  14. #54
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Encair View Post
    I rather would have ****ed orangutan
    Don't judge, it's hard to tell you mammals apart when it's dark.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by FuzzyDuck81 View Post
    -2, plus an extra -1 on every attack or spell that hits the enemy, capping out at an extra -10.. so -12 to saves? Presumably which stacks with other debuffs, eg. hypnotism? And if the effect stacks in the same way that, eg. scourge can max out its stack from a single cast of magic missiles (havent tested shadows myself yet), then thats a very powerful little combo for when you want to make sure something sticks
    And how long and how much SP is it to let it stack up to that -12?

    If I'm taking a bit more time and willing to burn more SP to make sure it sticks, for a single target, Energy Drain is far faster, average -10, up to -16, every 8 seconds. (Or I can even do multiple mobs, which Shadows can't, by kiting through a Symbol of Death or something.) Even if Shadows can turn out to be slightly cheaper (depends what it takes to get that stack up to -12), it's still slower (only 1 mob per 20 seconds).

    Personally, my more typical use case is, a single-debuff followed immediately by my CC (e.g., Hold) or instakill, then move on to the next mob. For that, the tiny, expensive Shadows debuff with a huge cooldown looks like garbage.

  16. #56
    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Not really. For some reason Evo-boosting stuff isn't affecting it's DC. And it's a Fort save, the most bloated mob save. So as it is, I'd rather try to make a mob fail a low-70s Necro Destruction or Wail or something than a mid-60s Soundburst.
    Yeah, I was looking forward to that ability, but after using it for most of yesterday I will say it's disappointing. You also have to hard target a mob to use it, which for me makes it annoying to use.

    I twisted in empyrean magic from divine crusader in its place for my fire sorc, +10% crit with all spells and +20 spell power, it's nice.

  17. #57
    2015 DDO Players Council FuzzyDuck81's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    And how long and how much SP is it to let it stack up to that -12?
    Assuming each individual missile provides the debuff? As little as about 26SP including the initial casting of shadows, and assuming you had scourge, you'd probably offset that entirely with the temp SP procs. But the extra debuff procs off damage from spells OR attacks that deal damage, so anyone with a halfway decent attack speed could use it to make tactics-based stuff stick too. With the cooldown it wouldn't be for general use so much as "this orange-named is particularly tough/annoying, lets wear it down to make it easily manageable".
    I don't mean to come across as unsympathetic - but I am, so I do.

  18. #58
    The Hatchery Wipey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Don't judge, it's hard to tell you mammals apart when it's dark.
    I don't think I want to know for which ... erm ... activity. I hope it's feeding the troll tribe with dead monkeys.
    Shahang Nezhat Bellezza Wipekin Farida of Ghallanda

  19. #59
    Community Member Vanhooger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    This.

    And they'd have to be a drow so no reconstruct (cocoon or scrolls for hjeals).

    And they'd need to pure so the saves would be pretty terrible.

    I can't call this OP at all.
    This.

    I'm playing a pure drow sorc and 95% of the time on EE. If i'm in draconic my dps is a beast only if I use proper debuff and/ power word stun, mass hold, thar require lots of sp, also i need to be in draconic. I maxed out CC, and gave up on Evo cos on wheeloon, storm and all the new content, you never have enough evo dc, you just see evade,evade,evade = waste of sp and 0 dps.

    My sorc it's preety powerful, but it's very hard to play on ee, when you got no save, no evasion, little prr and dodge. And self healing just with coocoon is not enough on ee, when a sorc is supposed to take aggro, because of the huge damage is dealing, yes I use also scroll, but that can be interrupted and it' very slow casting.

    Sorc are once agian viable in EE ( I mean pure sorc ), but very hard to play(that's the tradeoff)...a Palemaser like Asunawa in cannith, he's having twice my kill, every quest, but then at bosses he's going to suck, but that's the tradeoff.

    A stupid shiradi wiz 15/3/2, outdps me all the time, and they don need to invest in dc at all. They have the best self healing, 1 click reco with quicken and evasion and high reflex save, plus ignoring most of will save. That's OP, there is no tradeoff here, you just have everything you need.

    Probably, if I tr into a 15/3/2, I can do 95% of the quest solo easily, not because I'm skilled, it's just because that is overpowered.

    Lot of people is mocking me on quest because I never stop moving and jumping. The answer is easy: 2-3 consecutive hit and I'm dead meat. Maybe one with those adrenaline thing.

    Another thing I'd like to say. Sorc have they're sp cost increased with the capstone +10%, that's very bad for a nuking class, also I wish I had something like tea with the queen that shiradi have. It's so powerful even without joy.
    Last edited by Vanhooger; 04-08-2014 at 10:57 AM.

  20. #60
    Community Member Miow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanhooger View Post
    This.

    I'm playing a pure drow sorc and 95% of the time on EE. If i'm in draconic my dps is a beast only if I use proper debuff and/ power word stun, mass hold, thar require lots of sp, also i need to be in draconic. I maxed out CC, and gave up on Evo cos on wheeloon, storm and all the new content, you never have enough evo dc, you just see evade,evade,evade = waste of sp and 0 dps.

    My sorc it's preety powerful, but it's very hard to play on ee, when you got no save, no evasion, little prr and dodge. And self healing just with coocoon is not enough on ee, when a sorc is supposed to take aggro, because of the huge damage is dealing, yes I use also scroll, but that can be interrupted and it' very slow casting.

    Sorc are once agian viable in EE ( I mean pure sorc ), but very hard to play(that's the tradeoff)...a Palemaser like Asunawa in cannith, he's having twice my kill, every quest, but then at bosses he's going to suck, but that's the tradeoff.

    A stupid shiradi wiz 15/3/2, outdps me all the time, and they don need to invest in dc at all. They have the best self healing, 1 click reco with quicken and evasion and high reflex save, plus ignoring most of will save. That's OP, there is no tradeoff here, you just have everything you need.

    Lot of people is mocking me on quest because I never stop moving and jumping. The answer is easy: 2-3 consecutive hit and I'm dead meat. Maybe one with those adrenaline thing.

    Another thing I'd like to say. Sorc have they're sp cost increased with the capstone +10%, that's very bad for a nuking class, also I wish I had something like tea with the queen that shiradi have. It's so powerful even without joy.
    That's the reality, ease of build achievement survivability and longevity has a lot to do with power.

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