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  1. #1
    Community Member bbcjoke's Avatar
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    Default The new high DC lords

    I'm sorry to be THAT guy complaining but...

    If someone asked me yesterday which class he was supposed to pick to make a DC-based caster, I'd promptly tell him to pick an archmagi wizard and go magister destiny. It was supposed to be the role of the class after all. Well, that is not true anymore, at least when we are talking about epic levels.

    The new Exalted Angel now gives you a +3 transcendental (?), non-twistable bonus to all spell DCs. I get that it was supposed to help clerics catch up with the arcane casters, but a second glance will reveal it actually does not do that. The ones that gets the most benefit from this are sorcerers.

    Think about it, the EA tree is made for wisdom/charisma-based casters. A charisma-based caster can increase his spells DCs not only by the core ability bonus, but also by buying charisma from the tree (a total of +6 permanent DC for all spells) - not counting the bonuses for twisting the magister and draconic incarnation bonuses.

    Not only that, all SLAs in the tree can also use charisma-based checks (soundburst with a ridiculously low SP cost is also the perfect crowd control spell for many types of enemies). A wizard cannot buy intelligence from the tree itself, nothing in it benefits from his high intelligence, it is mostly a dead tree except for some twistable abilities.

    So while clerics and favoured souls CAN now catch up with wizards, the huge-saves-because-two-paladin-levels sorcerers are also now the rightful choice for DC-based casters, twice the SP and all.

    Don't get me wrong, I like the new EA tree and all, but compare it with the magister tree: a +3 permanent bonus against a +5 temporary for 20 seconds every 4 minutes! I thought it was a major drawback not adding a intelligence choice for the attributes in the EA tree - or giving a similar, permanent bonus to the magister tree instead of (or in addition) that horrible timed thing. Are wizards condemned to forget DCs and play shiradi champions forever?

    Thoughts?

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by bbcjoke View Post
    I'm sorry to be THAT guy complaining but...

    If someone asked me yesterday which class he was supposed to pick to make a DC-based caster, I'd promptly tell him to pick an archmagi wizard and go magister destiny. It was supposed to be the role of the class after all. Well, that is not true anymore, at least when we are talking about epic levels.

    The new Exalted Angel now gives you a +3 transcendental (?), non-twistable bonus to all spell DCs. I get that it was supposed to help clerics catch up with the arcane casters, but a second glance will reveal it actually does not do that. The ones that gets the most benefit from this are sorcerers.

    Think about it, the EA tree is made for wisdom/charisma-based casters. A charisma-based caster can increase his spells DCs not only by the core ability bonus, but also by buying charisma from the tree (a total of +6 permanent DC for all spells) - not counting the bonuses for twisting the magister and draconic incarnation bonuses.

    Not only that, all SLAs in the tree can also use charisma-based checks (soundburst with a ridiculously low SP cost is also the perfect crowd control spell for many types of enemies). A wizard cannot buy intelligence from the tree itself, nothing in it benefits from his high intelligence, it is mostly a dead tree except for some twistable abilities.

    So while clerics and favoured souls CAN now catch up with wizards, the huge-saves-because-two-paladin-levels sorcerers are also now the rightful choice for DC-based casters, twice the SP and all.

    Don't get me wrong, I like the new EA tree and all, but compare it with the magister tree: a +3 permanent bonus against a +5 temporary for 20 seconds every 4 minutes! I thought it was a major drawback not adding a intelligence choice for the attributes in the EA tree - or giving a similar, permanent bonus to the magister tree instead of (or in addition) that horrible timed thing. Are wizards condemned to forget DCs and play shiradi champions forever?

    Thoughts?
    I'd very much like to see this Sorc build that gets achieves a higher DC than my Sun-ELf Pale master.
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    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    I agree with the theme of the OP. I totally agree that wisdom based casters should be benefiting from EA. I'm kind of lost as to why cha is also an option. No divine casters use cha as a casting stat though cha is typically relevant to the builds. Adding cha as an option does allow for sorcerers and bards to get some use out of the tree which is nice, but leaves wizards out in the cold. It might be too much of a stretch to make all the abilities wis/cha/int, but at the same time it does feel like it's shafting wizards by allowing cha but not int. I suppose wizards should feel good that they get to use the DC effects from Shadowdancer while sorcs are left out, but I'm not sure that's something to be too happy about.
    Last edited by redspecter23; 04-07-2014 at 07:25 PM.
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    Community Member Blackheartox's Avatar
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    95% wizzards are shiradi casters, they dont care about dc.
    Maybe thats why the almost extinct dc wizzies get no love?
    Mass <<<<<------ Few

    Turbine, it seems listens to mass.

    Another thing, wizzys in draconic alrdy have enough necro and enchant dc for all relevant content.
    They do NOT need more boost as it would result into no fail 100% 1 cast necro playstyle again.

    About sorcs, even if you go into angel and get all feats, you can only count on good enchant dc.
    Dont forget wizzys get necro dc from lich form and from archmage, you can get 4 starting more dc compared to a sorc.
    2 lich, 1 necro focus from pale and 1 from arch.
    Counting in fact sun elf can start with 20 int and get 2 racial.
    Last edited by Blackheartox; 04-07-2014 at 07:52 PM.

  5. #5
    Community Member Cardtrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackheartox View Post
    95% wizzards are shiradi casters, they dont care about dc.
    Maybe thats why the almost extinct dc wizzies get no love?
    Mass <<<<<------ Few

    Turbine, it seems listens to mass.

    Another thing, wizzys in draconic alrdy have enough necro and enchant dc for all relevant content.
    They do NOT need more boost as it would result into no fail 100% 1 cast necro playstyle again.
    95% of wizard forum posts may be about Shiradi casters, but if that's what you're seeing in game, we're playing on very different versions of Cannith.
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  6. #6
    Community Member bbcjoke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Impaqt View Post
    I'd very much like to see this Sorc build that gets achieves a higher DC than my Sun-ELf Pale master.
    Ok, I'll try it. Please note that I'm not counting the cost of enhancement points spent, so I may be going for an impossible build.

    A drow is to a sorcerer what a morninglord is to a wizard (in terms of INT and CHA bonuses, +4). Or you can, of course, go Half-Elf Paladin dilettant and get a +2 permanent CHA bonus with an additional temporary boost of +3 from Action Surge (not really that good, I know, so let's go with the drow build).

    A PM can get +4 INT from the Shroud of the Lich (+2 DC to all spells, and additional +1 to Necromancy), another +1 to Necromancy from Necromantic Focus, and another +1 to any school if he decides to invest in School Mastery from the AM enhancement tree. Suppose you are also buying +4 INT from both the AM and PM trees and a +2 INT capstone, it is a total of +5 DC to all schools (+8 with EA epic destiny), and additional +2 to Necromancy and an additional +1 to any school.

    A Sorcerer gets +2 CHA from the capstone (inhibits the Paladin 2 combo), another +1 to Evocation/Conjuration from the Savant tree. Get the +4 CHA from two trees and that's a total of only +3 DC to all schools and an additional of +1 to either Evocation or Conjuration. But then you add the EA epic destiny - it is now a +8 CHA from attributes bought in the tree and Angelic Presence (+4 to all DCs) and another +3 from the transcendental bonus - and you have a total of +10 DC to all schools (a 10%-to-land difference from the +8).

    I promptly ignored the bonus from the magister and the draconic incarnation (they favor conjuration and evocation when you add them). So yeah, unless you are going for necromancy, PM is better. For anything other than Evocation or Conjuration, it is up to a 5%-to-land difference as long as you are above 50% health. And for those two schools, a 10%-to-land difference.

    Now that has to account for something

    Edit: fixed calculations
    Last edited by bbcjoke; 04-07-2014 at 09:55 PM.

  7. #7
    Community Member Blackheartox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbcjoke View Post
    Ok, I'll try it. Please note that I'm not counting the cost of enhancement points spent, so I may be going for an impossible build.

    A drow is to a sorcerer what a morninglord is to a wizard (in terms of INT and CHA bonuses, +4). Or you can, of course, go Half-Elf Paladin dilettant and get a +2 permanent CHA bonus with an additional temporary boost of +3 from Action Surge (not really that good, I know, so let's go with the drow build).

    A PM can get +4 INT from the Shroud of the Lich (+2 DC to all spells, and additional +1 to Necromancy), another +1 to Necromancy from Necromantic Focus, and another +1 to any school if he decides to invest in School Mastery from the AM enhancement tree. Suppose you are also buying +4 INT from both the AM and PM trees, it is a total of +4 DC to all schools (+7 with EA epic destiny), and additional +2 to Necromancy and an additional +1 to any school.

    A Sorcerer gets +2 CHA from the Elemental Form (inhibits the Paladin 2 combo), another +1 to Evocation/Conjuration from the Savant tree. Get the +4 CHA from two trees and that's a total of only +3 DC to all schools and an additional of +1 to either Evocation or Conjuration. But then you add the EA epic destiny - it is now a +8 CHA from attributes bought in the tree and Angelic Presence (+4 to all DCs) and another +3 from the transcendental bonus - and you have a total of +10 DC to all schools (a 15%-to-land difference from the +7).

    I promptly ignored the bonus from the magister and the draconic incarnation (they favor conjuration and evocation when you add them). So yeah, unless you are going for necromancy, PM is better. For anything other than Evocation or Conjuration, it is a 10% or 5%-to-land difference as long as you are above 50% health. And for those two schools, a 15% or 10%.

    Now that has to account for something
    Even with maxed evocation in exalted, a sorc wont have enough evocation dc for high end content.
    Thats why you go with enchant and play around with power words/debuffs for will and spam holds.
    For enchant it would be ok, but you lose all that spellpower and caster levels for evoc spells from draconic.
    For divine past life grinding, sure its ok.
    For real proper build.. Dont know. Maybe, but it would be weak id say.
    Last edited by Blackheartox; 04-07-2014 at 08:04 PM.

  8. #8
    Community Member bbcjoke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackheartox View Post
    Even with maxed evocation in exalted, a sorc wont have enough evocation dc for high end content.
    For enchant it would be ok, but you lose all that spellpower and caster levels for evoc spells from draconic.
    For divine past life grinding, sure its ok.
    For real proper build.. Dont know. Maybe, but it would be weak id say.
    You mean will save-based spells? There are some conjuration/evocation spells that actually have that. Electric loop, Sound Blast, Glitterdust, Prismatic Spray/Ray (some colors)... It is mostly a matter of adaptation. Besides, as I stated, they have higher DC in every school except necromancy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bbcjoke View Post
    If someone asked me yesterday which class he was supposed to pick to make a DC-based caster, I'd promptly tell him to pick an archmagi wizard and go magister destiny.
    I'd say a PM Wizard with a side of Archmagi (unless Enchantment-focused, then mabye the other way around), with any Arcane destiny.

    Quote Originally Posted by bbcjoke View Post
    The new Exalted Angel now gives you a +3 transcendental (?), non-twistable bonus to all spell DCs. I get that it was supposed to help clerics catch up with the arcane casters, but a second glance will reveal it actually does not do that. The ones that gets the most benefit from this are sorcerers.
    Sorcs and divines were all significantly behind Wizards for top DCs. This just puts them all in the same ballpark, though I think Wizard still comes out ahead, especially in the most-used arcane DC-casting schools. Just not by nearly as much. And Wizard still has a much better spell list than the divines, and a much more flexible spell list than the Sorcs, and a ****-ton of extra bonus feats for their casting above either, allowing them to both fully specialize in a school and have feats to spare to diversify as well. The more-feat-starved casters have to give up a lot to get top DCs.

    Quote Originally Posted by bbcjoke View Post
    (soundburst with a ridiculously low SP cost is also the perfect crowd control spell for many types of enemies)
    Not really. For some reason Evo-boosting stuff isn't affecting it's DC. And it's a Fort save, the most bloated mob save. So as it is, I'd rather try to make a mob fail a low-70s Necro Destruction or Wail or something than a mid-60s Soundburst.

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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    Adding cha as an option does allow for sorcerers and bards to get some use out of the tree which is nice, but leaves wizards out in the cold. It might be too much of a stretch to make all the abilities wis/cha/int, but at the same time it does feel like it's shafting wizards by allowing cha but not int.
    Wizards are shafted & left in the cold? LOL.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Impaqt View Post
    I'd very much like to see this Sorc build that gets achieves a higher DC than my Sun-ELf Pale master.
    Well, lets see what we can get to....
    ------------------

    Max [Sustainable] Charisma breakdown: 80* -- (20 base +6 tome* +7 level ups +8 enh + 11 item +3 Insight +1 exceptional +1 litany + 6 destinies +3 Twists^ +1 epic completionist twist* +2 yugo +2 ship +3 epic feats +2 completionist* + 2 store pot* +2 Angelic Presence)

    Most people will not be completionists, have a +6 cha tome and be epic completionist, or be willing to continually shell out TP for store pots, so for normal purposes I consider the max Charisma to be 73

    *^Max [Sustainable] Spell DC's breakdown assuming 73 cha (add +1 DC if completionist, add +1 DC if you have a +6 cha tome and epic completionist, add +1 DC more if you like chugging store pots) -- only 2 points from twists are reasonable as you need to twist +3 DC's from magister

    Please note that it is not possible to have max DC's in all spheres, the below calcs are only present to show what is possible.

    Necromancy: 71 Wizard vs 69 Sorc (10 base + 9 spell level + 31 cha mod + 1 spell focus + 1 greater focus + 1 wiz past life +3 Magister + 6 item +1 unique +1 profane +2 augment +3 Transcendent Magic)

    Enchantment: 73 Wizard vs 72 Sorc (10 base + 9 spell level + 31 cha mod + 1 spell focus + 1 greater focus + 1 wiz past life + 1 bard past life + 1 enchantment lore +3 Magister + 6 item +1 unique +1 profane +2 augment (exceptional) +1 morale [ship] +3 Transcendent Magic)

    Conj and Evocation: 74 Wizard vs 75 Sorc (10 base + 9 spell level + 31 cha mod + 1 spell focus + 1 greater focus + 1 wiz past life +3 Magister +2 Precise Casting +3 Cleric/Sorc PL + 6 item +1 unique +1 profane +2 augment +1 ship +3 Transcendent Magic)

    ------------

    Sorc loses the Enervation SLA but gains enough SP to use Energy Drain in place of it (major boost), also the Sorc will gain the use of the very powerful Shadow's Upon you ability furthering their enhanced DC's.

    I think it is safe to say that the DC landscape has changed in a dramatic way -- Not yet ready to give up my wizard.. but I am seriously considering it.

    I need to play with the new EA tree more to really understand the pros and cons, but I completely agree with the OP that the new EA tree has benefited Sorc's tremendously.
    Last edited by Andoris; 04-07-2014 at 09:41 PM. Reason: Corrected DC calcs

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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Wizards are shafted & left in the cold? LOL.
    Can we at least agree that Magister (the wizard focused destiny) is a joke. Even my DC wizard never uses it (draconic is much better all around), and with the changes to EA -- Sorc in EA might be the way to go for Arcane DC casting.

    I agree that the changes to EA were needed for Divine casters.. but this overpowers Sorcerers to a great degree.

  13. #13
    Community Member Blackheartox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andoris View Post
    Can we at least agree that Magister (the wizard focused destiny) is a joke. Even my DC wizard never uses it (draconic is much better all around), and with the changes to EA -- Sorc in EA might be the way to go for Arcane DC casting.

    I agree that the changes to EA were needed for Divine casters.. but this overpowers Sorcerers to a great degree.
    Magister is garbage. But exalted does not overpower sorcs.
    Sorc is a elemental spells user and most efficient with high damage bursts if built for dcs.
    Aka draconic.
    You get dcs from exalted, but lose 8 caster levels for en burst. and all other spells.
    That is not a good trade off imo.
    You could make a nice hold/web bot tho. Thats about only use i see from exalted for sorcs.
    Not gonna say how strong breath now is while its clevel is higher as well.
    Last edited by Blackheartox; 04-07-2014 at 08:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardtrick View Post
    95% of wizard forum posts may be about Shiradi casters, but if that's what you're seeing in game, we're playing on very different versions of Cannith.
    Actually most of them seem to be about pale masters. And bellyaching (not you) about difficulty is kinda silly when I'm playing EE in a new destiny and killing just fine even before I spent points. The game is not that hard.

    But back on topic, I think a fire sorc goes well in divine crusader too!

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    Community Member Blackheartox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    Actually most of them seem to be about pale masters. And bellyaching (not you) about difficulty is kinda silly when I'm playing EE in a new destiny and killing just fine even before I spent points. The game is not that hard.

    But back on topic, I think a fire sorc goes well in divine crusader too!
    Aye, want to etr tomorow and try it. Should be fun, mass hold that epic spell and those consencration thingies

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    Community Member Blackheartox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardtrick View Post
    95% of wizard forum posts may be about Shiradi casters, but if that's what you're seeing in game, we're playing on very different versions of Cannith.
    Indeed we are. As far as i know, any lv 20 + quest will be filled with at least 1 shiradi wizzy wf.
    In heroic we have pales. In epic all give up on it beside 2 players i know. And they are frustrated as well since they realize they depend on others to kill bosses.
    Most people who arent rdy nor have knowledge for ee will run that build.
    Its prety much easy button entry for ee.
    We also got some triple completionists runing in 15 3 2 wizzy fsoul monk builds.
    Last edited by Blackheartox; 04-07-2014 at 08:59 PM.

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    Community Member bbcjoke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andoris View Post
    Well, lets see what we can get to....
    ------------------

    Max [Sustainable] Charisma breakdown: 78* -- (20 base +6 tome* +7 level ups +8 enh + 11 item +3 Insight +1 exceptional +1 litany + 6 destinies +3 Twists +1 epic completionist twist* +2 yugo +2 ship +3 epic feats +2 completionist* + 2 store pot*)

    Most people will not be completionists, have a +6 int tome and be epic completionist, or be willing to continually shell out TP for store pots, so for normal purposes I consider the max Charisma to be 72

    Max [Sustainable] Spell DC's breakdown assuming 72 cha (add +1 DC if completionist, add +1 DC if you have a +6 int tome and epic completionist, add +1 DC more if you like chugging store pots)

    Please note that it is not possible to have max DC's in all spheres, the below calcs are only present to show what is possible.

    Necromancy: 71 Wizard vs 69 Sorc (10 base + 9 spell level + 31 int mod + 1 spell focus + 1 greater focus + 1 wiz past life +3 Magister + 6 item +1 unique +1 profane +2 augment +3 Transcendent Magic)

    Enchantment: 73 Wizard vs 72 Sorc (10 base + 9 spell level + 31 int mod + 1 spell focus + 1 greater focus + 1 wiz past life + 1 bard past life + 1 enchantment lore +3 Magister + 6 item +1 unique +1 profane +2 augment (exceptional) +1 morale [ship] +3 Transcendent Magic)

    Conj and Evocation: 74 Wizard vs 74 Sorc (10 base + 9 spell level + 31 int mod + 1 spell focus + 1 greater focus + 1 wiz past life +3 Magister +2 Precise Casting +3 Cleric/Sorc PL + 6 item +1 unique +1 profane +2 augment +1 ship +3 Transcendent Magic)

    ------------

    Sorc loses the Enervation SLA but gains enough SP to use Energy Drain in place of it (major boost), also the Sorc will gain the use of the very powerful Shadow's Upon you ability furthering their enhanced DC's.

    I think it is safe to say that the DC landscape has changed in a dramatic way -- Not yet ready to give up my wizard.. but I am seriously considering it.

    I need to play with the new EA tree more to really understand the pros and cons, but I completely agree with the OP that the new EA tree has benefited Sorc's tremendously.
    You cannot get both a +6 INT from from destinies and a Transcendental Magic bonus to DCs. That's a -3 DC for wizards.

    Edit: Also, Angelic Presence gives you +2 CHA as long as you are above 50% health.
    Last edited by bbcjoke; 04-07-2014 at 09:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bbcjoke View Post
    You cannot get both a +6 INT from from destinies and a Transcendental Magic bonus to DCs. That's a -3 DC for wizards.
    Reading Fail.. the breakdown was for Sorc's.. the Wizard break downs are in my Pale Master Threads

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    Community Member bbcjoke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andoris View Post
    Reading Fail.. the breakdown was for Sorc's.. the Wizard break downs are in my Pale Master Threads
    Pardon my rudeness, I didn't see you accounting for Angelic Presence in your description and wanted to point it out.

    I actually got confused because you stated INT in the bonus instead of CHA.
    Last edited by bbcjoke; 04-07-2014 at 09:47 PM.

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    Updated my DC breakdown.. dropped one point of CHA due to needed +3 dc magister twist, added +2 cha from angelic presence (thx bbc) and edited the "int" to read "cha"

    Sorry.. guess I had one too many scotches
    Last edited by Andoris; 04-07-2014 at 09:39 PM.

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