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  1. #1
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Default +20% HP pointless for the majority of people it was intended for?

    So, I login on my fighter/paladin and excitedly rush to the fatespinner to check out the new divine destinies. I redo my Unyielding Sentinel abilities and take a gander at the Divine Crusader tree, which looks promising.

    As I leave the fatespinner after I'm done, I notice something. The +20% INSIGHT bonus to maximum HP from sentinel does not stack with the +20% COMPETENCE bonus to maximum HP I gain from my stalwart defender stance. I switch my defender stance off and notice my original base HP, which was previously just over 900, is now about 1.1k. I switch my defender stance back on and my HP is the way it has been for the last few months, around 1.3k. I even relogged to see if it was the usual mess with destinies. It wasn't.

    So yes, the bonus from sentinel increases your base HP, but does not stack in any way with fighter (and probably paladin) defender stances. This was a huge disappointment. The entire point of the destiny was increasing survivability and sustainability, and further enhancing classes and builds that already have that survivability. All this change did was give non-defensive classes in sentinel a +20% HP boost and did nothing in the least to help those that can best utilize it, in fact, it made defenders even less desirable than they are now. Way to go, Turbine...

  2. #2
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    I'm not sure I understand what your saying.

    Without stance/destiny your hitpoints were around 900.
    Then with the destiny active it is now around 1.1K.
    Now with stance and destiny active it is around 1.3.

    That sounds exactly like it's stacking....

    900 * 1.2 = 1080
    1080 * 1.2 = 1296

  3. #3
    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krelar View Post
    I'm not sure I understand what your saying.

    Without stance/destiny your hitpoints were around 900.
    Then with the destiny active it is now around 1.1K.
    Now with stance and destiny active it is around 1.3.

    That sounds exactly like it's stacking....

    900 * 1.2 = 1080
    1080 * 1.2 = 1296
    math never solves problems

  4. #4
    Community Member badbob117's Avatar
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    I can confirm It stacks with my pally stance bonus. Got the extra hp in stance after i redid my epic stuff. I got around 1700 hp now. Still can't fight my way out of a paper bag but i got some extra hp.

    Must be stalwart fighter tank bug. Bug report it i guess.
    Last edited by badbob117; 04-07-2014 at 01:55 PM.
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  5. #5
    Community Member jaegarnel's Avatar
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    Also, US is obviously meant to be the raid healing ED for divines now, with the addition of renewal. So it's not just for tanks.
    And even for tanks, adding in renewal means a pretty big boost to survivability, being able to heal yourself for 200+ hp every 2 seconds for 5 sp is a huge buff to pally and fighter self-healing.

    That +20% hp is looking pretty good for surviving in EE raids on my cleric, or even EH with the 1k damage the red dragons can do. A dead healer can't heal, or do anything else, after all.

  6. #6
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Let me clarify:

    Before U21.1 base HP = 900ish
    Before U21.1 HP with 20% buff (and +6 con) from fighter defender stance = 1.3k
    After U21.1 base HP = 900ish
    After U21.1 base HP with 20% buff from sentinel = 1.1k
    After U21.1 base HP with 20% buff (and +6 con) from fighter defender stance = 1.3k
    After U21.1 HP with 20% buff from sentinel and 20% HP buff (and +6 con) from fighter defender stance = 1.3k

    So yeah, the bonus is NOT stacking with fighter defender stance. My math is correct. Once again, Turbine doesn't know how to code things properly.

  7. #7
    The Hatchery Wipey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaegarnel View Post

    That +20% hp is looking pretty good for surviving in EE raids on my cleric, or even EH with the 1k damage the red dragons can do. A dead healer can't heal, or do anything else, after all.
    More hp might help with Shadow dragon breath. I don't know, I get one shotted on EE with 800 hp and 20 absorb.
    For Fire trakonz uber melee or Yellow circles, Wing the heck away.
    Don't think I got hit by trakon even once in maybe 15 EH Thunder Peaks on cleric.
    It's not like you are healing any melee tank or anything.

    They like to sneak up on people with zero awareness near the middle though, hehe.
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  8. #8
    The Hatchery Nédime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnbeimnech View Post
    math never solves problems
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  9. #9
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    Let me clarify:

    Before U21.1 base HP = 900ish
    Before U21.1 HP with 20% buff (and +6 con) from fighter defender stance = 1.3k
    How is 900x1.2=1300?

    I thought 900x1.2=1080

    Or even 900+(3x28) [for +6 CON] = 984 and 984x1.2=1180

    So how did you get to 1300 HP before U21.1?

  10. #10
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    How is 900x1.2=1300?

    I thought 900x1.2=1080

    Or even 900+(3x28) [for +6 CON] = 984 and 984x1.2=1180

    So how did you get to 1300 HP before U21.1?
    FFS...I generalized rather than giving exact numbers. With buffs such as ship buffs, greater heroism, etc, it goes up to around 1.3k. Stop being so pointlessly statistical. It doesn't stack. Period.

    Actual numbers, looking at the screen, without ship buffs or any other buffs, at level 26:
    Base HP = 949
    HP with stalwart defender stance = 1,232
    Base HP with 20% sentinel buff = around 1,118 or something (not paying over 120k to reset my destiny for the 3rd time today)
    HP with 20% sentinel buff and stalwart defender stance = 1,232

    Ergo it doesn't stack, like I stated twice, already.
    Last edited by HastyPudding; 04-07-2014 at 02:29 PM.

  11. #11
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    FFS...I generalized rather than giving exact numbers. With buffs such as ship buffs, greater heroism, etc, it goes up to around 1.3k. Stop being so pointlessly statistical. It doesn't stack. Period.

    Actual numbers, looking at the screen, without ship buffs or any other buffs, at level 26:
    Base HP = 949
    Base HP with stalwart defender stance = 1,232
    Base HP with 20% sentinel buff = around 1,118 or something (not paying over 120k to reset my destiny for the 3rd time today)
    Base HP with 20% sentinel buff and stalwart defender stance = 1,232

    Ergo it doesn't stack, like I stated twice, already.
    Well when you post "generalized" numbers that are rounded that bad (949 to 900 and 1232 to 1300) don't get all up in a wad when ppl question you. Especially when another poster (badbob117) confirms that it stacks for him.

  12. #12
    Community Member jaegarnel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Encair View Post
    More hp might help with Shadow dragon breath. I don't know, I get one shotted on EE with 800 hp and 20 absorb.
    For Fire trakonz uber melee or Yellow circles, Wing the heck away.
    Don't think I got hit by trakon even once in maybe 15 EH Thunder Peaks on cleric.
    It's not like you are healing any melee tank or anything.

    They like to sneak up on people with zero awareness near the middle though, hehe.
    Well actually I am usually healing a melee tank in the Fire dragons raid. So if I get too close by accident, boom tail swipe for 1k dmg.

    Even if there is a kiting arcane or monkcher, my experience is that they'll die or need healing at some point, so I try to stay nearby to rez or toss an emergency heal (or harm in case of pm).
    That unfortunately leaves plenty of opportunity for the dragons to hit me, including the last raid where both the kiter and the backup died and I was stuck kiting the dragon around for at least 2 minutes while they were rebuffing and getting aggro back.

    The problem is, most players just aren't very good at kiting, especially not big mobs like those dragons. I've found that in PUGs it was more reliable to have actual tanks, provided you can find a decent one. Of course, that makes the times when dragons become supercharged a bit intense on the healing front, but you can't have everything.

  13. #13
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    Well when you post "generalized" numbers that are rounded that bad (949 to 900 and 1232 to 1300) don't get all up in a wad when ppl question you. Especially when another poster (badbob117) confirms that it stacks for him.
    For him, yes. In a paladin stance (which is a sacred bonus) it apparently stacks. With the fighter stance (a competence bonus), it clearly doesn't. So, either the insightful bonus from sentinel or the competence bonus from fighter is incorrect, as they are both the same. Or, Turbine just decided to screw over fighters and only have it work with paladins, which doesn't seem very likely.

    Back to shelving my fighter and wait for unfair bugs to be fixed and back to getting my artificer to 28, I guess.

  14. #14
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    Just noticed it on my stalwart, it doesn't stack. Either the description is wrong or the ability is bugged. Bug report it and pray.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    For him, yes. In a paladin stance (which is a sacred bonus) it apparently stacks. With the fighter stance (a competence bonus), it clearly doesn't. So, either the insightful bonus from sentinel or the competence bonus from fighter is incorrect, as they are both the same. Or, Turbine just decided to screw over fighters and only have it work with paladins, which doesn't seem very likely.
    Sacred Defender seems built up to be a little more defensive than Stalwart, so I could see it being left. They don't have to be in perfect lockstep with each other, otherwise what's the point? Why go Sacred Defender when you could go Stalwart and get all the Defensive goodies plus nice additional Shield attacks/buffs?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    FFS...I generalized rather than giving exact numbers. With buffs such as ship buffs, greater heroism, etc, it goes up to around 1.3k. Stop being so pointlessly statistical. It doesn't stack. Period.

    Actual numbers, looking at the screen, without ship buffs or any other buffs, at level 26:
    Base HP = 949
    HP with stalwart defender stance = 1,232
    Base HP with 20% sentinel buff = around 1,118 or something (not paying over 120k to reset my destiny for the 3rd time today)
    HP with 20% sentinel buff and stalwart defender stance = 1,232

    Ergo it doesn't stack, like I stated twice, already.
    949 * 1.2 = 1138.8 (sentinel buff)

    949 + [3 * 28] = 1033 (+6 con)
    -> 1033 * 1.2 = 1239.6 (Stalwart stance)

    -> 1033 * 1.2 * 1.2 = 1487.52 (stacked)

    The math supports your assertion. Bug it.
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  17. #17
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rimble View Post
    Sacred Defender seems built up to be a little more defensive than Stalwart, so I could see it being left. They don't have to be in perfect lockstep with each other, otherwise what's the point? Why go Sacred Defender when you could go Stalwart and get all the Defensive goodies plus nice additional Shield attacks/buffs?
    This really shouldn't be a factor, regardless of the two tree's differences. Sentinel has aspects of both the fighter's more shield-offense tactics and the paladin's pure defensive abilities. One is a sacred bonus and the other is competence, and the sentinel is insight. Both stances should stack with an insight bonus. It seems most likely that either the sentinel's bonus is competence or the fighter's bonus is insight.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    This really shouldn't be a factor, regardless of the two tree's differences. Sentinel has aspects of both the fighter's more shield-offense tactics and the paladin's pure defensive abilities. One is a sacred bonus and the other is competence, and the sentinel is insight. Both stances should stack with an insight bonus. It seems most likely that either the sentinel's bonus is competence or the fighter's bonus is insight.
    It could be that they changed the bonus type so the two no longer stack with each other, but I hope it is a mistake. :/
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  19. #19
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    This really shouldn't be a factor, regardless of the two tree's differences. Sentinel has aspects of both the fighter's more shield-offense tactics and the paladin's pure defensive abilities. One is a sacred bonus and the other is competence, and the sentinel is insight. Both stances should stack with an insight bonus. It seems most likely that either the sentinel's bonus is competence or the fighter's bonus is insight.
    I agree. Hopefully it's a bug and not WAI.

  20. #20
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    This really shouldn't be a factor, regardless of the two tree's differences. Sentinel has aspects of both the fighter's more shield-offense tactics and the paladin's pure defensive abilities. One is a sacred bonus and the other is competence, and the sentinel is insight. Both stances should stack with an insight bonus. It seems most likely that either the sentinel's bonus is competence or the fighter's bonus is insight.
    I never understood why Turbine typed Stalwart & Sacred defensive stance bonuses differently. You're not allowed to have both active simultaneously anyway, so why not make them the same type so everything that stacks with one also stacks with the other? Instead, you end up with weird rule hitches like, say, the threat bonus from Divine Righteousness (sacred) stacking with Stalwart defensive stance (competence) but not Sacred (also sacred).

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