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  1. #41
    Community Member Nightmanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caprice View Post
    If only Amaunator had warhammers as the favored weapon, then Sun Elf warpriests would be a pretty solid choice (e.g. hello, Mornh!). However the selection of heavy maces as the deity weapon undermines them seriously since there are no good melee Heavy Maces in epic levels (and the caster ones are a bit of a mixed bag too). Even the drow weaponmasters refuse to use heavy maces, and the new Thunderforged maces retain the terrible base 20 x2 crit profile.

    I bet a Sun Elf version with dual Phosphors would feel pretty amazing to start, but it would be all downhill from there.

    And as ever it is a shame that we can't cherry pick a specific Sovereign Host deity to worship for a specific weapon (e.g. battleaxe, warhammer, qstaff) rather than be stuck with the pantheon - or for that matter one of the Dark Six (which brings in rapiers and kamas).
    Wait, what? The bonuses from ML add onto Mauls, but they don't add onto Warhammer's?? Are you kidding me right now?

  2. #42
    Community Member Cardtrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmanis View Post
    Wait, what? The bonuses from ML add onto Mauls, but they don't add onto Warhammer's?? Are you kidding me right now?
    The Weapon Training bonuses in the Morninglord racial tree do add onto Warhammers.

    The problems is that this build is heavily reliant on the Favored Soul Warpriest and Angel of Vengeance trees. The important weapon abilities there apply only to your deity's favorite weapon. With a favored weapon, someone maxing out Warpriest's Righteous/Wrathful weapon line and putting enough into AoV for Articles of Faith will have the following bonuses to any favored weapon they wield:

    + 5 (stacking) to its enhancement level
    + 3d4 light damage for 6 seconds after every vorpal hit
    counts as a Spellcasting Implement (which does include the additional enhancement level)

    Unfortunately, most of the deities have incredibly terrible weapons. Amaunator (who is the god for Morninglords, Purple Dragon Knights, and, bizarrely, Shadar-Kai) has the Heavy Mace as his favored weapon. Which is awful.
    The favored weapons are:

    Lord of Blades (Warforged, Bladeforged): Greatsword
    Silver Flame (Any Eberron race): Longbow
    Sovereign Host (Any Eberron race): Longsword
    Undying Court (Elves and Half-Elves): Scimitar
    Vulkoor (Drow): Shortsword
    Amaunator (PDK, Morninglord, Shadar-Kai): Heavy Mace

    Greatswords should be good, but if you don't have an eSOS, they're almost as bad as heavy Maces. There's nothing available at epic levels with an improved critical profile. Even a Calomel Greatsword would be a step up over most epic greatswords, but for who-knows-what reason, you can't make greatswords in the Cannith challenges. Skybreaker is terrible. Cormyrian weapons don't have red slots to put Devotion in. Longswords and shortswords are similarly poor choices, although they have some slightly better named weapon options. Longbow is obviously nice for a ranged build, but there's no synergy at all between ranged and Divine Crusader.

    Scimitar is a good weapon for its solid base critical profile, meaning that the Thunderforged versions are among the better ones (since they don't get enhanced profiles). Greatsword is a bad weapon if you don't have an eSOS and a completely fantastic weapon if you do (a Bladeforged Warpriest with an eSoS has a +15 sword with a high base damage that's already 18-20x3 before Improved Critical and Celestial Champion and is also a +15 implement giving +45 stacking universal spellpower). Shortswords and longswords are kind of interesting because you can be centered with them.
    Last edited by Cardtrick; 04-09-2014 at 06:13 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Zero View Post
    One day I just wrote "Why Do I Die So Much?" in party chat, and that is how I learned about fortification.

  3. #43
    The Hatchery serthcore's Avatar
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    Build updated, also added a new pic
    Argo: - Trolls Lair / Intransigence

  4. #44
    Community Member Cardtrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by serthcore View Post
    Build updated, also added a new pic
    For your current 15/3/2 centered version, did you consider going drow for shortswords instead of human? You'd have 3 points higher charisma (2 base points and 2 from racial enhancements vs. 1 from human) and an extra feat (lose human bonus feat but gain from not taking WF:Slashing and Whirling Steel Strike).

    On the other hand, it would mean you'd have to spend your APs a little differently, and this build is already pretty AP-starved.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Zero View Post
    One day I just wrote "Why Do I Die So Much?" in party chat, and that is how I learned about fortification.

  5. #45
    The Hatchery serthcore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardtrick View Post
    For your current 15/3/2 centered version, did you consider going drow for shortswords instead of human? You'd have 3 points higher charisma (2 base points and 2 from racial enhancements vs. 1 from human) and an extra feat (lose human bonus feat but gain from not taking WF:Slashing and Whirling Steel Strike).

    On the other hand, it would mean you'd have to spend your APs a little differently, and this build is already pretty AP-starved.
    Yes, but healing amp, racial damage boost, and slightly higher base dmg (6.0 1d8 vs 6.0 1d6) wins for me.
    Also drows start with 32 points instead of 36, that could mean lowering con or cha, not a biggie but i'll stick with human.
    Argo: - Trolls Lair / Intransigence

  6. #46
    The Hatchery Zoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by serthcore View Post
    Yes, but healing amp, racial damage boost, and slightly higher base dmg (6.0 1d8 vs 6.0 1d6) wins for me.
    Also drows start with 32 points instead of 36, that could mean lowering con or cha, not a biggie but i'll stick with human.
    Drow are also not manly enough. He forgot to add that.
    Main: Zodaroth - heroic & epic completionist pure dwarven warlock
    Alts: Zodynkar (caster), Zodirkeal (archer), Zodinn (lab rat)
    ---- Death N Taxes -------------------------------------------------------Argo -----

  7. #47
    Community Member Cardtrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by serthcore View Post
    Yes, but healing amp, racial damage boost, and slightly higher base dmg (6.0 1d8 vs 6.0 1d6) wins for me.
    Also drows start with 32 points instead of 36, that could mean lowering con or cha, not a biggie but i'll stick with human.
    The 32 vs 36 thing is only sort of true. Yes, drow start with 32 free points rather than 36 -- but that's because they have 4 more pre-allocated points than any other race (due to the innate +2 bonus to CHA, DEX, and INT). If you would already put at least 2 points into each of these stats, drow are essentially 36 point builds. In your case, you definitely would for CHA and DEX -- maybe not INT, although I probably would.

    Definitely agree that healing amp and damage boost are major drawbacks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Zero View Post
    One day I just wrote "Why Do I Die So Much?" in party chat, and that is how I learned about fortification.

  8. #48
    Community Member Vanhooger's Avatar
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    Love this build, thnx for sharing. I'll do this one on my alt, as soon he's hitting 28

  9. #49
    Community Member Sokól's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoda View Post
    Drow are also not manly enough. He forgot to add that.
    Drow females are hot but Drow males look like they are close to 60
    Argonnessen: Hilmir - Purkilius - Jinu - Vignir @ Blood Assassin´s

  10. #50
    Community Member Caprice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardtrick View Post
    The Weapon Training bonuses in the Morninglord racial tree do add onto Warhammers.

    The problems is that this build is heavily reliant on the Favored Soul Warpriest and Angel of Vengeance trees. The important weapon abilities there apply only to your deity's favorite weapon. [...] Unfortunately, most of the deities have incredibly terrible weapons. Amaunator (who is the god for Morninglords, Purple Dragon Knights, and, bizarrely, Shadar-Kai) has the Heavy Mace as his favored weapon. Which is awful.
    The favored weapons are:
    ^- What Cardtrick said; I won't quote the whole thing for space, but +1 to the full post for its excellent explanation.

    The ML racial bonuses affect all of Mauls, Warhammers, Morningstars, and Heavy and Light Maces, but the Amaunator faith bonuses only affect the Heavy Maces. IIUC you can use the ML as the basis for building a strong blunt-based TWF, targeting Mornhs at epic levels, but if so you are definitely not going to invest anything into the Warpriest "Righteous Weapons" line. You can still pick up a bunch of good abilities in Warpriest without wasting AP (much), but you lose a lot by not having access to those bonuses and the free spellpower boosts.

  11. #51
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardtrick View Post
    The problems is that this build is heavily reliant on the Favored Soul Warpriest and Angel of Vengeance trees. The important weapon abilities there apply only to your deity's favorite weapon.
    The other issue is this is a centered build; and short swords (Vulkoor) and longswords (Sovereign Host) are the only deity melee weapons that can be ki weapons without going the ftr 8 / One w/Blade route.

  12. #52
    Community Member bennyson's Avatar
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    Default Nice Build! (Both Old & New)

    These are really nice builds, although I DO have a question that has been pounding in my mind for a while.

    Would a Pally version work? Like 15 pal/5 fvs or 14 pal/5 fvs/ 1 ftr?

  13. #53
    Community Member Cardtrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    The other issue is this is a centered build; and short swords (Vulkoor) and longswords (Sovereign Host) are the only deity melee weapons that can be ki weapons without going the ftr 8 / One w/Blade route.
    That's true, but it wasn't originally and I'm not sure if it was when I posted that. The build was originally half-elf with scimitars, but he's changed it a few times.

    I think if Mornh was actually an option as a favored weapon, it would probably make sense to use it and give up on centering again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Zero View Post
    One day I just wrote "Why Do I Die So Much?" in party chat, and that is how I learned about fortification.

  14. #54
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bennyson View Post
    Would a Pally version work? Like 15 pal/5 fvs or 14 pal/5 fvs/ 1 ftr?
    That seems like a radically different build: you lose the benefits from monk splash (Evasion, feats, centered stances, light buffs) and higher FvS lvls (better spells, core enhs like Archon, etc.) for...what, exactly? Zeal is nice, but it's not nicer than everything else this build gets.

  15. #55
    The Hatchery Zoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bennyson View Post
    These are really nice builds, although I DO have a question that has been pounding in my mind for a while.

    Would a Pally version work? Like 15 pal/5 fvs or 14 pal/5 fvs/ 1 ftr?
    12 fvs is mandatory in my opinion for this kind of build, without the archon, you wouldn't be able to fuel your Scourge and Empyrian Magic charges, and if you try to spam spells, you obviously can't melee.

    If you want a more melee focused version, my suggestion is 13 fvs 6 monk 1 rog or 12 fvs 6 rog 2 monk henshin/acrobat with their respective trees instead of warpriest. That is btw something I was considering before ultimately going for the longsword version. The upside for those is that your weapon of choice is Sireth, so you don't need to farm those thunderforged weapons.
    Main: Zodaroth - heroic & epic completionist pure dwarven warlock
    Alts: Zodynkar (caster), Zodirkeal (archer), Zodinn (lab rat)
    ---- Death N Taxes -------------------------------------------------------Argo -----

  16. #56
    Community Member Loriac's Avatar
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    Maybe I'm missing something here, but I don't see why you can't approach this destiny from a mainly melee perspective (i.e. no need for fvs levels). The only real damage dealer you miss out on maximising is consecration, and that mainly because of the spellpower difference between melee centric and caster centric builds. I discount the joke that is celestial bombardment at tier 6, both because it looks rubbish and because you're better off spending the 2 points saved there on the tier 5 abilities if you're melee.

    Purely from a theorycrafting approach (my main is currently relevelling back to epic, so I can't try this destiny out properly til I hit 20 again) you lose the ability to blitz of course, but you gain a lot of healing capability (which isn't reliant on empower healing as much as cocoon purely going by the text on the wiki) along with a much better critical enhancement in celestial champion (sireth becomes 11-20!). Twist in lay waste and momentum swing, and you have a +5w cleave that is critting at 11-20x4 on sireth (i.e. a profile that delivers 250% expected weapon damage).

    Obviously a blitzer is higher dps than the divine crusader, but this ED is much more group friendly. If your class levels give you the 'basics' from a melee perspective (strong weapon damage, full oc line + twf/thf chain, haste boost, decent protection) but you're not really a tactics build, then the divine crusader abilities are very complementary. The other great thing about DC seems to be the BAB = character level, which is especially good for e.g. rogue heavy dps builds.

  17. #57
    Community Member korsat's Avatar
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    Good job with build shoi! I like the monk version more. Can you detail the pros and cons of going cleric instead of fvs? You know...

    Cleric ofc goes with wis main stat and cha will "only" be in the high 30-low 40. To me this means lower saves but on the other side I gain the ability to stun since i'll still use wraps. I aspect t3 antipode single target dps to be higher than longswords even without stun, not sure though.

    Thanks
    Avenlight - Human - 12Fvs/6Monk/2Pal/8Epic
    Avenlight - Human - 17Cleric/2Monk/1Fighter/8Epic
    Korsat - Dwarf - 18Wizard/2Monk/8Epic
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    ROS, Argonessen.

  18. #58
    The Hatchery serthcore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loriac View Post
    Maybe I'm missing something here, but I don't see why you can't approach this destiny from a mainly melee perspective (i.e. no need for fvs levels). The only real damage dealer you miss out on maximising is consecration, and that mainly because of the spellpower difference between melee centric and caster centric builds. I discount the joke that is celestial bombardment at tier 6, both because it looks rubbish and because you're better off spending the 2 points saved there on the tier 5 abilities if you're melee.

    Purely from a theorycrafting approach (my main is currently relevelling back to epic, so I can't try this destiny out properly til I hit 20 again) you lose the ability to blitz of course, but you gain a lot of healing capability (which isn't reliant on empower healing as much as cocoon purely going by the text on the wiki) along with a much better critical enhancement in celestial champion (sireth becomes 11-20!). Twist in lay waste and momentum swing, and you have a +5w cleave that is critting at 11-20x4 on sireth (i.e. a profile that delivers 250% expected weapon damage).

    Obviously a blitzer is higher dps than the divine crusader, but this ED is much more group friendly. If your class levels give you the 'basics' from a melee perspective (strong weapon damage, full oc line + twf/thf chain, haste boost, decent protection) but you're not really a tactics build, then the divine crusader abilities are very complementary. The other great thing about DC seems to be the BAB = character level, which is especially good for e.g. rogue heavy dps builds.
    Well, his point was about that the hybridness aspect (adding energy burst and others) is much much better with a 12 lvls favored soul base. A paladin or any other melee class in this destiny of course is going to be decent, but not much if you try to fit epic spells.

    My celestial bombardement hits for 500 each tick on AOE (non helpless, can crit). Maybe its not awesome, but to deal with trash using energy burst + bombardement + (if needed) hellball gets it done.
    Argo: - Trolls Lair / Intransigence

  19. #59
    The Hatchery serthcore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by korsat View Post
    Good job with build shoi! I like the monk version more. Can you detail the pros and cons of going cleric instead of fvs? You know...

    Cleric ofc goes with wis main stat and cha will "only" be in the high 30-low 40. To me this means lower saves but on the other side I gain the ability to stun since i'll still use wraps. I aspect t3 antipode single target dps to be higher than longswords even without stun, not sure though.

    Thanks
    Thanks Korsat
    The main difference is the casting aspect here, and it comes when comparing AoV tree with the other cleric trees. AoV adds +8% fire, light and untyped crit, +3 caster level to your spells, and 28ish spellpower, scourge, (an extra +30 spellpower), just reward and the archon! (which is critical to build scourge/empyrean favor charges).
    On the cleric variation first you have to choose if going radiant servant or divine disciple first. Then if you choose divine disciple you gain less than from AoV, some spellpower, less crits, and some SLA's that aren't very useful for a build like this one.

    Edit: going for wraps instead of favored weapons make you lose +5 enhacement bonus, which also means +15 implement spellpower.
    Last edited by serthcore; 04-10-2014 at 01:06 PM.
    Argo: - Trolls Lair / Intransigence

  20. #60
    The Hatchery Zoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by korsat View Post
    I gain the ability to stun since i'll still use wraps. I aspect t3 antipode single target dps to be higher than longswords even without stun, not sure though.
    Celestial Champion is not working on wraps.
    Main: Zodaroth - heroic & epic completionist pure dwarven warlock
    Alts: Zodynkar (caster), Zodirkeal (archer), Zodinn (lab rat)
    ---- Death N Taxes -------------------------------------------------------Argo -----

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