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  1. #101
    The Hatchery serthcore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by korsat View Post
    Thanks guys, I made the math and shadow veil is really hard to fit in (not impossible though if I renunce to some healing amplification and spell crit chance).

    Said that which other benefits 15 fvs lvls gives you vs 12? 6 monk makes room For triple mental thoughness and 3% crit chance more. Any important spell loss?

    The staff ruote looks cool, but not having tier 5 warpriest mmmm well it's something to try anyways.
    Yep, it can work aswell, lose mass cure mod/resurrection for +2% crit chance (on a completionism build) and spellpoints remain the same (100 ish less on the 12 lvls variation i think). So go for it if you like P:
    Argo: - Trolls Lair / Intransigence

  2. #102
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    I am looking closely at this build, thanks for pointing it out the other day

    I was wondering how it would work as a THF. I am aware you lose centered, but you could go for the OC line to partially compensate (for the X1 critical). Together with cleave, great cleave, momentum I think it also compensates the loss of dance of flowers too, more than enough.

    You lose the damage enhancements from the warpriest tree, but I don t know how big of a deal that would be.

    Why do that anyway?

    Well, I don't think the THF line would be more feat intensive and even though you might not go for THF feats per se, I think that the combination fo cleave, great cleave and momentum could bring melee damage up.

    What do you guys think?

  3. #103
    Community Member Caprice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    I am looking closely at this build, thanks for pointing it out the other day
    I was wondering how it would work as a THF. I am aware you lose centered, but you could go for the OC line to partially compensate (for the X1 critical). Together with cleave, great cleave, momentum I think it also compensates the loss of dance of flowers too, more than enough.
    You lose the damage enhancements from the warpriest tree, but I don t know how big of a deal that would be.
    Why do that anyway?
    Well, I don't think the THF line would be more feat intensive and even though you might not go for THF feats per se, I think that the combination fo cleave, great cleave and momentum could bring melee damage up.
    What do you guys think?
    You are "down" one feat for needing to add OC but that's not a big deal, and having the 2 Cleaves would be quite nice, but I think it's a net loss. Master Earth stance already grants the equivalent of OC, and gives extra PRR, CON, and AC on top of it, and being uncentered costs you that bonus. The +5 extra enhancement bonus to Longswords from the WP tree is not just +5 to hit and damage, but also +15 universal spell power. You also lose the Monk special attacks, such as Fists of Light for proc'ing Backlash or the elemental ones for adding DPS. You do have the option to start instances/shrines as centered, lay out some Monk buffs (esp. the SP cost reduction one while buffing), and then switch to the greatsword for fighting, but you wouldn't be able to do that mid combat and thus couldn't do something like keeping up the group anti-stun buff for the fights where that is really helpful.

    I'm sure that you can make it work, but that's more of a loss than I would want. If I were doing it I would almost certainly go with WF/BF instead of Human to retain the WP bonuses and think hard about whether or not the Monk levels are worth keeping (see Cardtrick's Bladed Crusader). You might also be better off in LD rather than DC, although both have merits.
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  4. #104
    Community Member Sokól's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    I am looking closely at this build, thanks for pointing it out the other day

    I was wondering how it would work as a THF. I am aware you lose centered, but you could go for the OC line to partially compensate (for the X1 critical). Together with cleave, great cleave, momentum I think it also compensates the loss of dance of flowers too, more than enough.

    You lose the damage enhancements from the warpriest tree, but I don t know how big of a deal that would be.

    Why do that anyway?

    Well, I don't think the THF line would be more feat intensive and even though you might not go for THF feats per se, I think that the combination fo cleave, great cleave and momentum could bring melee damage up.

    What do you guys think?
    On a THF I would either use a Sireth or go 17 fvs 2 pally 1 fighter BF with a Greatsword.
    Argonnessen: Hilmir - Purkilius - Jinu - Vignir @ Blood Assassin´s

  5. #105
    Community Member Loriac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    I am looking closely at this build, thanks for pointing it out the other day

    I was wondering how it would work as a THF. I am aware you lose centered, but you could go for the OC line to partially compensate (for the X1 critical). Together with cleave, great cleave, momentum I think it also compensates the loss of dance of flowers too, more than enough.

    You lose the damage enhancements from the warpriest tree, but I don t know how big of a deal that would be.

    Why do that anyway?

    Well, I don't think the THF line would be more feat intensive and even though you might not go for THF feats per se, I think that the combination fo cleave, great cleave and momentum could bring melee damage up.

    What do you guys think?
    This is pretty much what the 12fvs/6monk/2pal version brings to the table with sireth - I put up a build for this a few days ago, and have started levelling it up to see how it performs. https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...FVS-6Monk-2Pal

    Funnily enough, now that I've crunched the numbers, I think that the 12fvs/6monk/2pal may well be the highest possible melee dps you can get with a favored soul whilst still retaining good saves (a 12fvs/6monk/2rogue would be top melee dps if using sireth but it loses about 20 saves across the board which is too great a loss, and I can't think of any other fvs centric build that would beat this, as the only contender might be 12fvs/8ftr using eSoS but then you don't have any monk levels for stances).
    Last edited by Loriac; 05-02-2014 at 02:40 PM.

  6. #106
    Community Member Caprice's Avatar
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    WTB Follower of Aureon (one of the Sovereign Host) or Follower of any of Angharradh, Talos, or Gruumsh One-Eye from the Forgotten Realms.

    *cough* Because it totally wouldn't be ridiculously good having QStaff as a favored weapon to pair with Monk levels.

    ... please? ;-)
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  7. #107
    The Hatchery Zoda's Avatar
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    TWF is way more powerful on this build for multiple reasons:

    - Ameliorating Strikes proc from offhand attacks (and doublestrike), turning it into an AOE fullhal with no cast animation

    - you don't have to take cleaves and momentum swing just to make your weapon choice somewhat more viable

    - twf with thunderforged > thf, unless maybe if you are a blitzer, mortal fear ftw

    - thf forces you into one of two things: BF - greatsword (bad healamp - takes away tonnes of synergies from the build, no magic backlash combo, not centered), fleshie - staff (this way you either give up on magic backlash combo, or just use a bad crit profile weapon OR sireth wich means no mortal fear and that kind of kills it for this build, also without acrobat tier 1, staves are just meh)

    - cleaves are not required/neccessary or even really beneficial to this build if you play it correctly (magic backlash combo), for AOE dps it has access to way stronger abilities (bombardment + burst is enough to kill a group of mobs even in ee SH on mine), if you just want to keep spamming your cleaves, stay in blitz

    Yes thf can work, I have a guildy playing one, and he is doing okay on it, but even he admits that the TWF version (which he has 2 of atm ^^) is way more powerful. For people who just want to play strongest version and are willing to do the grind for double mortal fear: just go with the original. Sireth is a nice 2nd option until you get the swords (or even wraps, I was using wraps until I got my swords, and I did have a fully upgraded sireth left over from my acrobat lives). The PDK challange longswords are pretty decent if you are planning to level/grind with longswords.
    Main: Zodaroth - heroic & epic completionist pure dwarven warlock
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  8. #108
    Community Member Loriac's Avatar
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    I completely agree that ameliorating strike is much better with the twf option, and is a very powerful reason to go twf with this type of build.

    On the other points that give the twf'r melee power, I think its only fair to state that both mortal fear and the magical backlash + fists of light combo may not be things to plan around long-term.

    Mortal fear is a very nice ability, but I think a lot of people have concerns that turbine will nerf this at some point based on history of similar fun but powerful abilities. Hopefully turbine won't nerf this to oblivion based on the work people are putting in to get these weapons, but unfortunately the trend is not your friend on this one.

    Magical backlash + fists of light simply looks broken. I don't think anyone is currently claiming with a straight face that this is an intended usage of the ability, instead we're all in agreement that it looks great and is fun to use now but when the inevitable fix happens, I doubt anyone will seriously petition turbine on the basis that the fix is 'unfair'.

    I got the impression that the original version(s) of the build in this thread aren't really centred on the magical backlash + FOL combo, and that the build retains its powerful mix of spellcasting / melee even without that. My only point of contention is that the 2twf mix optimises for spellcasting over melee capability, and that you can build a stronger 2hf melee version but this will result in the loss of healing from ameliorating strike and leave you weaker in spellcasting ability (but this is a fair trade off, and one that should be evaluated when deciding which style to build for).

  9. #109
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    First of all, thanks for the answers.


    I do think that, mortal fear aside, pure raw damage with THF remains higher when combined with cleaves+momentum. However, it is a very fair point that there are plenty of losses from going that route, thanks for pointing them out. To be absolutely honest, the reason why I am considering THF is because I don-t particularly like to copy builds :P. If I play one, I like to add my own touch.

    The key elements of this build, for me, are:

    1. High saves: common to any paladin splash, but even better in a build that relies on CHA for DCs. The synergy DM and CHA has long been explored already.

    2. AOE damage: burst + bombardment. I am seeing a fair number of builds using energy burst, DC seems ideal because it adds you spell power while not crippling you for melee.

    3. Self healing

    5. Decent melee: which is a matter of high enough STR, gear and DC has some nice additions to it.

    Now if I were to modify this build some how, I could see either adding some more spell casting, then one may want to go to a Ghostriker build, or adding more melee damage. The only possible way I see to add more melee damage is going THF. Self healing shouldn-t suffer too much, since the way I see it is based a lot around the magic circle...

    But let me say that this build for me, is the very clever realization that there is no uber melee outside of blitz. End of, there is no chance for it. FOTW does provide some nice melee damage, but it is not steamrolling in your face I will pawn the whole quest kind of damage.

    So a melee that wants to pawn has to turn to magic.

    1. Energy burst + now and then bombardment for trash.
    2. Divine punishment for bosses.

    This is brilliant. Melee damage is not based on class that much in epics, so you do just fine with gear and a few select melee abilities. What you give up on the damage side by not going FOTW is more than compensated by these two abilities and the synergy they create with DC.

    Enough ranting, congratz on the build and let-s see if I find a twicth that allows me to play it with a bit of dignity :P

  10. #110
    The Hatchery Zoda's Avatar
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    I disagree on that Mortal Fear will be / should be nerfed, I think it was their way to present an alternative to blitz ,at least that's how I've seen it, and made my build with it in mind. When I made my crusader a centered longsword splash, Shoik was still a helf with scimitars wearing medium armor - ofc we consulted in length in game.

    Magic Backlash + FOL, is probably a combo devs were not thinking about when they made the new enhancements, but I don't think it is far off from other abilities in terms of power level, especially when you consider the huge limitations/investment it puts to your build (be centered, go tier5 in an otherwise barely mediocre tree, locks at least 8 class levels, with 5 of those levels being awful for a traditional melee).

    I've been blitzing ever since u14 on my main, and it's refreshing to finally play something different, but if they change/nerf any key aspects of my build (instead of stuff that IS really gamebreaking), I'll just smiply tr back to some boring blitzer, at least I'll be able to compete for speed records again in more than a handful quests . Then again, I don't forsee any changes on these things anywhere in the near future, and I can't care less about how devs meant it be.

    I also disagree on that TWF is only better dps than THF because of mortal fear procs, the chip damage you get from thundercraft weapons (5/10d6 fire, and 8d8 force plus 17 SA damage) pushes it over THF with TWF attackspeed and huge doublestrike chance imo (24% mainhand ds, 10% offhand ds, 90% offhand proc chance, plus Zeal of the Righteous clicky when available on my toon atm). Your front number on THF is simply not high enough, like on a kensai. I'm not saying that it's not viable, actually I've seen it in game for myself that it's completely e/e viable, I'm just saying that I don't see how it is higher dps even if we take MF procs out of the equasion (and I don't see why should we do that anyway).
    Main: Zodaroth - heroic & epic completionist pure dwarven warlock
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  11. #111
    Community Member Loriac's Avatar
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    I hope you're right on mortal fear, and that it remains as-is rather than get nerfed. My main concern is that whoever designed it either didn't do any mathematical modelling of the dps it brings, or didn't care that it was much more powerful than other abilities.

    For example, on a 5,000hp mob, mortal fear provides an average of 62.5hp per hit. On a 10,000hp mob, mortal fear provides an average of 125hp per hit. And as mob hp goes higher, the effective damage per hit scales linearly. [these numbers are calculated based on the chance of proc'ing being uniformly distributed across the mob's hp, giving essentially 25% of the total hp of the mob as the expected value of damage done per proc. Its a very simplified calculation however, as it doesn't account for two procs on the same mob before the mob is dead, which is probably still reasonable given current levels of dps in the game].

    This is clearly unbalanced, even if whoever's in charge of game design hasn't fully realised it yet. When you compare it to vorpal, which once enjoyed similar power levels as mortal fear, the current vorpal version actually becomes less powerful with increasing mob hp, and tends asymptotically to 5 damage per hit as mob hp tends to infinity.

    However, I'll leave it there as this isn't really the thread for a discussion on mortal fear.


    On the point about thunderforged thf vs. twf, I don't think you've allowed for the fact that a staff specialized quarterstaff is a 19-20x3 base weapon, which is still better than the longswords 19-20x2 (and objectively, is one of the better crit profiles you can get, as its effectively a two-handed khopesh). The DC crit range extension further widens the gap between quarterstaff and longsword, as you end up with 15-20x3 for the thunderforged qs vs. 15-20x2 for the longsword. Then, whilst you are correct that the twf has more hits on a single target, glancing blows can proc weapon effects meaning that this is unlikely to be an advantage for twf overall beyond the already known twf is better vs. single target, thf is better vs. crowds. Staves can also get huge doublestrike increases - the Zeus build runs around with 70% or so, but even without heavy investment you can end up with 40-60% sustained average over time.


    Ultimately, I think the 2handed 12fvs/6monk/2pal is a very solid build choice, which has a different focus to the build in this thread. In some ways I'm arguing a strawman here however as the build given in this thread, with 15Fvs levels, doesn't work as a good THF damage build. In that sense, I fully support the contention that this specific build cannot be as effective as a THF; however, the related 12Fvs build does work but changes things enough that you're not really using the same playstyle.

  12. #112
    The Hatchery Zoda's Avatar
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    Comparing MF to vorpal is just wrong... The grind required to get a single one of these things is just horrendous, I mean, if I do 20+ completions of Deathwyrm, I want a weapon that can cut God. It's not like it just comes on any random gen.

    Also your dps calculation assumes that you first hit proc it, which is so far from the truth, that your numbers are not representative whatsoever.

    We are just made used to that the only factor that defines a weapon's DPS is it's crit profile, which was wrong, and killed diversity (see the over half decade long rule of eSOS). Last time I played a THF blitzer, I was critting for up to 12k+ after a stunning blow, before that I blitzed on a monk, and had 7k+ crits after stun, when you compare a MF proc to that, it is not at all out of the lines. Remember how Lightning Strike used to be before all this power creep started: 600 dmg, 900 on helpless, and an uber horc eSOS barb's top crit numbers were around 1500-1600. Ofc you can make your comparison to the numbers of that S&B sentinel pure paladin we all know so very well, but what's the point then?
    Last edited by Zoda; 05-03-2014 at 11:03 AM.
    Main: Zodaroth - heroic & epic completionist pure dwarven warlock
    Alts: Zodynkar (caster), Zodirkeal (archer), Zodinn (lab rat)
    ---- Death N Taxes -------------------------------------------------------Argo -----

  13. #113
    The Hatchery serthcore's Avatar
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    I think (at least for me) that twf is more practical to this build for most of the reasons written above. Ameliorating strike, mortal fear, vulnerable debuff (from both warprpiest and wyrm longswords), fol, being centered, etc.
    And:
    -Haste boost, do you guys take this into consideration when running the numbers? because most of the time im meleeing i use the double boost (unless quest is too long...). If it's still less dps than THF, Okay.
    -Mortal fear: yes, i use it, i love it. If they nerf them to the point of making this build unplayable, ill just TR out of this build. Same with fists of light.
    Right NOW mortal fear is working and not bugged, so planning to use it is not a bad idea.
    -Single target dps: i use spells for trash, not having cleaves to hit a bunch of mobs is not thaaaat needed.
    -Procs: fire/negative/augments dmg, they proc more on twf. And gets purge the wicked faster and celestial fervor

    So dps may be lower, but on practice i still prefer to stick to this one.
    You cant match the dps of a blitzer, so going for procs/special effects is helpful!
    Last edited by serthcore; 05-03-2014 at 11:54 AM. Reason: added info
    Argo: - Trolls Lair / Intransigence

  14. #114
    Community Member Loriac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoda View Post
    Also your dps calculation assumes that you first hit proc it, which is so far from the truth, that your numbers are not representative whatsoever.
    No they don't. 5000hp mob, assume that you have a uniform distribution of procs over its hp range. On average, you'll proc when its at 2500hp assuming no burst dps being applied. (The full justification for this is, assume 100,000 hits; on average, you'd expect 5,000 procs over that many hits, and if uniformly distributed over the mob's hp, you have 1 proc per hit point value. The mean hp value when a proc occurs is therefore approximately 50% of the mob's hp. The proc itself takes off half of that, or 25% on average. Divide by 20 and you get expected damage per hit of 1.25% of a mob's starting hp, which fully scales with the mob's starting hp).

    The proc will take 1250hp off the mob. This is a 1/20 hit occurrence, and 1250/20 = 62.5hp.

    If I assumed first hit proc, it would double the expected damage to 125hp.

    As to the rest, like I say I don't particularly want to get into a discussion of mortal fear in this build thread especially because the shoikan build doesn't seem in any way reliant on mortal fear beyond the fact that it provides the best choice of dps for it at the current time.
    Last edited by Loriac; 05-03-2014 at 11:37 AM.

  15. #115
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    Default By far the easiest solo toon for epic past lives for completionists

    Bladeforged 16/2/2

    Can farm all circles with easy. Blitz, divine crusader, draconic or fury. Need +5s in stats or atleast in strenght for overwhelming crit.

    18
    6
    12
    10
    6
    18

    lvl ups in charisma

    power attack, cleaves, maximise, empower, quicken, imp crit slash, stunning blow (at lvl1)

    If doing melee past life (blitz or fury) take empower at 24 and overwhelming crit at 21 . If caster other way around. High umd, can selfbuff anything needede and its basicly impossible to die. Really fast zerging with energyburst that preps mobs for blitz or as a more caster oriented wipes most things in EH zerg. No annoying jumping around as a pewpew or trouble with end bosses. Str at 60s more if want to have tenser running all the time and easily to 70s if needed so can stun anything with gear. Of course not best toon for EEs but I highly recommend for as a past life farming build.

  16. #116
    Community Member Spellburst's Avatar
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    By the way, Serthcore, can you post the original build? Maybe it's not optimum, but I'd like to take a look at it. I can't find it in the forums. Thx in advance.
    Spellburst, Toikos, Phylantrios (Argo)

  17. #117
    The Hatchery serthcore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spellburst View Post
    By the way, Serthcore, can you post the original build? Maybe it's not optimum, but I'd like to take a look at it. I can't find it in the forums. Thx in advance.
    Here it is


    The build

    Half Elf, Lawful good 17 fvs / 2 paladin / 1 fighter

    STR 14
    DEX 13 (need a +4 dex tome)
    CON 16 (need a +5 tome if epic toughness, can drop this to 14 if you don't want it)
    INT 10
    WIS 8
    CHA 17 + lvl ups


    Feats (in no particular order) 7 helf +1 fighter +3 epics +2 ED feats
    Power attack
    Helf: dilettante: Fighter (+1 dmg) or Rogue (+1d6 sneak dmg, +2 sneak att)
    TWF
    ITWF
    GTWF
    Icrit: Slash
    Quicken
    Maximize
    Empower
    *Toughness (ed feat at 26)
    *Epic Toughness
    *Completionism
    *Empower heal
    Epic twf (ed feat at 28)
    Undying court feats line

    *Not crucial for the build, can take mental toughness line or other feats as desired.

    Leveling order doesn't matter, but start with 1 fvs level, (starting w/ fighter can lead to feat problems as you cant select meta's)

    Skills: In order of importance: Spellcraft, UMD, heal, balance, concentration.


    Enhacements:
    -Helf: damage boost, +1 charisma, +10% healing amp (10ish APs)
    -AOV: All the cores till archon, scourge, just reward, +3 saves, smiting line, +2 charisma, intense faith (28~ APs)
    -Warpriest: All the cores till blur, +15 hp, divine might, +10 PRR, Favored weapon line, Smite Weakness, Ameliorating strike, +2 charisma,
    Magic Backlash, divine vessel optional, (35 APs)
    -Kensei: Haste boost, +3 boosts.

    Epic Destiny: Divine Crusader

    t1 Bane of Undeath (or +1 cha), Interrogation, Purge the wicked
    t2: Consecration, Flames of purity
    t3: Empyrean Magic, Sacred Ground
    t4. No Regret, Crusade,
    t5 Celestial Champion, Castigation
    t6 Celestial Bombardement

    Twists:
    Energy burst (fire), Balanced attacks if fire inmune quest.
    Soundburst/Grim precision/sheathe/others
    Brace for impact
    Unearthy reactions
    Argo: - Trolls Lair / Intransigence

  18. #118
    Community Member Full_Bleed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by serthcore View Post
    Whirling Steel Strike feat: You treat longswords as if they were monk weapons, remaining centered when you wield them.
    You mention that Power Attack and TWF should be taken with Monk levels in the OP. But WSS would also need to be taken with a Monk level, correct?

    Is there a suggested Feat and Leveling Order with this build?
    Last edited by Full_Bleed; 05-17-2014 at 03:25 AM.

  19. #119
    Community Member korsat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by serthcore View Post
    Feats (in no particular order) 8 Human +2 Monk +3 epics +2 ED feats
    Power attack
    Weapon focus: slash
    WSS
    TWF
    ITWF
    GTWF
    Icrit: Slash
    Quicken
    Maximize
    Empower
    Adept of Forms /mental toughness
    Master of Forms /improved mental toughness
    Hellball (ed feat at 28)
    Completionist /Ruin / Epic mental toughness
    Epic twf (ed feat at 26)
    Sovereing host favored weapon line
    Why do you need weapon focus on this build? am I missing some prerequisite?

    EDIT: forgot WSS NUUUB
    Last edited by korsat; 05-17-2014 at 08:52 AM.
    Avenlight - Human - 12Fvs/6Monk/2Pal/8Epic
    Avenlight - Human - 17Cleric/2Monk/1Fighter/8Epic
    Korsat - Dwarf - 18Wizard/2Monk/8Epic
    Zendark - Halfelf - 12Monk/6Ranger/2Fighter/8Epic

    Korsat's Build Index

    ROS, Argonessen.

  20. #120
    Community Member tsteigner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by korsat View Post
    Why do you need weapon focus on this build? am I missing some prerequisite?

    EDIT: forgot WSS NUUUB
    Whirling Steel Strike

    Usage: Passive
    Prerequisite:
    Weapon Focus: Slashing
    Monk Level 1
    one of following;
    Proficiency: Longswords, Favored by the Sovereign Host, or Half-Elf race with Fighter dilettante.

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