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  1. #21
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Jul 2007
    Toronto, Ontario


    Quote Originally Posted by Fhauvial View Post
    I haven't heard of this, but it's been a while since I've dug around in Complete Divine. I did a check on Hexblade though, and sure enough, it's an (Ex) ability granted at 3rd level.

    I don't think changing the level any core class gets their ability is the answer here. These splashes were common before U14, and nobody seemed to take issue with them back then. Coming back to the game semi-recently, the uproar about these sort of splashes kinda amazes me. It seems to me the problem started with the enhancement pass and a changing metagame, so if anything, any solution should focus on those things, not altering core class abilities.
    The problem isn't with the splash, it's with the game. When the DC to save 300 - 400 damage spells and traps jumped up to 50+ it shouldn't be surprising that people would jump all over evasion with a paladin splash to make the saves easier to attain. Shift the endgame away from humongous bursts of evadable damage and you'll see a metagame shift to other builds. This is something Turbine should be looking to shift slowly over time as new content comes out. Unfortunately, they either don't realize this or just don't care because over the last few years each new update just bumps up the saves necessary for evasion to work as well as cranking up the damage dealt by evadable spells and traps. It's time for other spells and effects to get some love so our toons will adapt to other builds to take advantage of other defenses. Huge blade/spike traps and Otilukes/fireballs are getting really old. We've adapted. Give us something new to adapt to to keep things fresh. You don't need to nerf evasion to get a result, just change up the game to keep the flavor of the month shifting.
    Kaarloe - Degenerate Matter - Argonnessen

  2. #22
    Community Member fmalfeas's Avatar
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    Apr 2009


    Replace the traps with the ones from the first quest in Inspired Quarter. Yeah, I'm talking about the Disjunction traps. Suddenly, Will Save will be considered the most important save.

  3. #23


    Nibel sums it up nicely.

    1: There is very little incentive to go pure on any class, most capstones don't stand out, are uninspiring, or just not worth the 40 points of filler you need to sink into a tree, for spells we're mostly capped on caster level without even trying, and there's only a handful of useful spells for most classes at the 8th and 9th levels

    2: Armor grants a bit of extra PRR and has a higher innate AC. The AC part is largely useless due to how the to-hit formula is these days, you need a fair bit of focus on AC to make it worth much. PRR also has diminishing returns, so the extra (up to) 34 points of PRR of a heavy armor vs. a set of pajamas just doesn't mean much, which is made even worse by the fact that the pajama's can get 15 PRR from the grandmaster stance (at the cost of 3 feats on a splash), and an additional 15 PRR from the iron skin enhancement (at the cost of 11 AP into the shintoa tree)

    3: combine that with turbines tendency to give every trashmob caster and their mom 400+ damage spells that allow reflex saves on EE (and thus can be evaded with evasion and a high enough reflex save)

    I don't believe that the fix is to change the class features as they are granted (otherwise, next you'd be clamoring for the rogues evasion to be moved up to 7, or the paladin save boost to be moved up to level 7 (which in my opinion should allow a maximum of your paladin level in the first place), but to diversify the spells used by enemy casters (and/or add a few fort/will save damage spells to the game while we're at it), allow AC to be actually useful, and give an actual incentive for classes to stay pure (Not "have this ability or you're a gimp", but something that makes you think "hmm, do I want this ability, or do I want evasion")
    Last edited by Forgeborn; 04-08-2014 at 03:11 PM. Reason: corrected values

  4. #24
    Community Member knightgf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008


    Here's a riddle for you: What do you call people who play the game for only a day and apparently know everything?

  5. #25
    Community Member Grimlock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Kansas City


    Quote Originally Posted by Rush007 View Post
    Making this change I believe would help the game greatly in the long run. This change would break the herp derp 2 monk 2 paladin untouchable saves split with evasion. This also forces an odd split, a lot of monk builds can easily go to 6th lvl. No easy evasion 12/6/2 a choice will actually have to be made. Content wouldn't have to be pigeon holed into unavoidable spells anymore and could be designed differently not focusing on challenging the people with evasion. Raid groups are consistently over 50% monk, most 2 splash splits. When even non wisdom caster start splashing 2 monk its an issue.
    I would love to see this, but it would be such a heavy handed nerf and completely ignore one of the few bits of actual D&D remains in this game. People would just take 2 levels of Rogue instead for the evasion.

    Monks do need to be neutered in a big way, but this will not solve anything. Reworking enhancement capstones to entice players to play a pure class and reward them with things like evasion is the right path to go down.
    ~ Archangels ~
    Grimmlock (Heroic Completionist Life 15); Saulot (Life 3); Leviathian (Life 5); Flogging Molly; Mithriss; TheBoondock Saynts; Bushmils; Humblebeard; Guinnesss.
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  6. #26
    Community Member fool101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009


    This seems to be the wrong thing to do. /2 splashes are a key feature that made DnD and (moreso) DDO unique in the way we build characters. You get to /2 (various classes) for evasion, feats, saves, magic affinity, run speed, SA, skill access, etc. Long term, pushing key class features deeper into the class will reduce build diversity. Currently there is a different problem that has led to the large abundance of certain builds/splits, but evasion is not the cause of that.

    Another defensive pass is currently in the works with the goal of enhancing armor-wearers. I look forward to the solutions that pass will provide (and the new FotM builds that will result).
    -Anything is possible....if you don't understand the problem.
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    -Luck is simply a crossroads between circumstance and knowledge, both are things you can control.

  7. #27
    Hall of Famer
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    Impaqt's Avatar
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    May 2006


    Quote Originally Posted by fmalfeas View Post
    Replace the traps with the ones from the first quest in Inspired Quarter. Yeah, I'm talking about the Disjunction traps. Suddenly, Will Save will be considered the most important save.
    oh. You mean the Disjunction traps that completely bypass your Will save? yeah. thats what we need more of....
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