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  1. #1
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    Default 18/2Rog PM - When?

    Drow Max INT, 14 CON, rest in CHA (UMD Raise Dead)

    Plan to solo most, if not all, low level quests

    I'm a fairly experienced Wizard player. I don't have every class feature memorized, but I often find myself giving advice to other Wizards. However, I've only ever played pure Wizards. When should I take Rogue?

    I want to take Rogue1 at either Char1 or Char2, but I can't figure out where. If I take Rog1 at Char1, I'm useless for all of Level 1, but I get a bunch more Skill Points. If I take Rog1 at Char2, I get a bunch less skill points, but I'm useful for my first level.

    When should I take Rogue Level 2? I have no idea where to put this one. I want to take it before level 6, but probably earlier.



    Note: I'll need to drink a Fox Cunning pot and get my INT ship buff before levelling. If I'm mentoring a noob on Korthos, I'll want to stay snowy side with them, so I'd rather not get locked into banking a useless 1 level of badly-built Rogue unless the end result is gonna be a massive cut above the rest.
    Last edited by Merlin-ator; 04-03-2014 at 02:51 AM.

  2. #2
    Community Member Cardtrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merlin-ator View Post
    Drow Max INT, 14 CON, rest in CHA
    Why would you need that much CHA? Nearly any other stat seems more useful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Merlin-ator View Post
    I want to take Rogue1 at either Char1 or Char2, but I can't figure out where. If I take Rog1 at Char1, I'm useless for all of Level 1, but I get a bunch more Skill Points. If I take Rog1 at Char2, I get a bunch less skill points, but I'm useful for my first level.
    If you plan on using UMD and trap skills at all -- which you almost certainly do -- then doing anything but Rogue on the first level is insane. It's a huge difference in skillpoints that you'll never be able to make up.

    Level 1 takes . . . what, half an hour? An hour? Just use a quarterstaff and suffer through it. The skillpoints last the entire life of your character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Merlin-ator View Post
    When should I take Rogue Level 2? I have no idea where to put this one. I want to take it before level 6, but probably earlier.
    This is much more flexible. Put it after you get access to whatever you consider the most important spell to make playing fun and smooth -- for a lot of people, that's fire wall, so going rogue 1, wizard 7, rogue 2 is pretty common. But it's really up to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Merlin-ator View Post
    Note: I'll need to drink a Fox Cunning pot and get my INT ship buff before levelling.
    Er . . . why?



    EDIT

    Also, if you haven't seen it before -- check out EllisDee's great Pale Trapper for new players.
    Last edited by Cardtrick; 04-03-2014 at 01:25 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Zero View Post
    One day I just wrote "Why Do I Die So Much?" in party chat, and that is how I learned about fortification.

  3. #3
    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merlin-ator View Post
    Drow Max INT, 14 CON, rest in CHA

    Plan to solo most, if not all, low level quests

    I'm a fairly experienced Wizard player. I don't have every class feature memorized, but I often find myself giving advice to other Wizards. However, I've only ever played pure Wizards. When should I take Rogue?

    I want to take Rogue1 at either Char1 or Char2, but I can't figure out where. If I take Rog1 at Char1, I'm useless for all of Level 1, but I get a bunch more Skill Points. If I take Rog1 at Char2, I get a bunch less skill points, but I'm useful for my first level.

    When should I take Rogue Level 2? I have no idea where to put this one. I want to take it before level 6, but probably earlier.
    Take rogue at level 1 and 11. What I usually do to get from 1-2 is cerulean hills explores and 100 kills out there is enough to get to 2 on a tr2. Takes 10 min.



    Quote Originally Posted by Merlin-ator View Post
    Note: I'll need to drink a Fox Cunning pot and get my INT ship buff before levelling. If I'm mentoring a noob on Korthos, I'll want to stay snowy side with them, so I'd rather not get locked into banking a useless 1 level of badly-built Rogue unless the end result is gonna be a massive cut above the rest.
    Buffing your int doesnt give more skill points at level up, it only counts base int, + level ups, +tomes.

  4. #4
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    Hi,

    What the other posters told you about taking rogue at your first level was really good advice. Please don't ignore it. And as for putting your additional points in CHA, I think STR would be a better choice. It's nice to be able to pull levers and carry a decent amount of gear without becoming encumbered. You can also lose the benefits of having evasion if your carrying capacity is low and you are overburdened.

    When you take your second rogue level depends on a few different things. Remember, although it gives you evasion, it also further delays when you get spells and enhancements such as undead forms, and it reduces your spell point pool. If you've played a wizard before without a rogue splash before you can probably get by just fine without evasion, at least for a while.

    I don't think you should take it any earlier than character level 9, as getting a persistent AOE like firewall as soon as possible makes so much mid level content so easy, especially if you don't have enough SP to constantly nuke.

    If you wait longer than that, like maybe around level 13 or so, you will find that because you had enough INT to keep your trap and spellcasting skills up, you can dump all the excess skill points you get on your second rogue level right into UMD, if that skill is important to you. Take that second rogue level too early and you may find that you end up wasting some skill points.

    And like the other posters said, temporary boosts to INT such as spells and ship buffs, and even stat enhancements purchased with APs don't affect your skill points per level.

    Thanks, and good luck.
    Astrican on Khyber

  5. #5
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    Thanks for the replies, everyone! This is gonna be a fun build.

  6. #6

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    Out of curiosity, what do you want UMD for?

    Back when I maxed UMD on mine, the only things I used it for were to scroll raise dead party members and the occasional (extremely rare) heal scroll in a pinch. I decided to drop UMD altogether because a) I have a greensteel clickie to raise dead, and b) it's more efficient/effective to use cc and instakill things instead of stopping to scroll heal somebody. Instead of trying to emergency scroll heal a frontline melee through a fight, far better to just mass hold whatever is trying to kill him.

  7. #7
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    Fully agree with other posters on taking first Rogue level at level 1.

    Personally, the times I splashed 2 for Evasion (either Rogue or Monk), the 2nd level was level 12, just in time for Elite Bravery VoN5.

    Why take UMD? Flexibility, options. You'll have lots of skill points; even after covering essentials, there's enough for UMD, which is well worth the investment, even if you self-heal.

  8. #8
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    I tend to do rogue at 1 and rogue after you get firewall.

    Seriously, the first 5 levels can be done by anything. Grab and sword and swing it like you're on crack, you'll be fine

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Why take UMD? Flexibility, options. You'll have lots of skill points; even after covering essentials, there's enough for UMD, which is well worth the investment, even if you self-heal.
    What flexibility? That's not a snark, but an actual question. What does UMD let you do?

    I disagree with the "plenty of skill points" argument. Maybe back in the day, but in today's game you need to add in spellcraft, and you'll almost certainly want heal as well.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    What flexibility? That's not a snark, but an actual question. What does UMD let you do?

    I disagree with the "plenty of skill points" argument. Maybe back in the day, but in today's game you need to add in spellcraft, and you'll almost certainly want heal as well.
    Hi,

    I have UMD on my 18/2 so that I can use greater restoration and resurrection scrolls.

    It's certainly not necessary, but it can be very useful in harder content where a raise dead is often just a ticket to a second quick death for the subject if they take any splash damage at all.

    What I don't like about it is it means my open locks is pretty ordinary, and with more locks that actually require a decent level of skill now that is more of a liability than it was in the past.

    I'd be very happy if the elf trapfinding ability actually used search instead of spot as per its description, because then I could have full ranks in UMD and OL, and dump spot altogether.

    Thanks.
    Astrican on Khyber

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by blerkington View Post
    I have UMD on my 18/2 so that I can use greater restoration and resurrection scrolls.
    Greater Restoration for other party members? Lesser Restoration pots do everything a wizard might want on themselves, I would think. (Either pale master in undead form or warforged; in either case, immune to level drain.)

  12. #12
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    Keep the umd, Resurrection, Heal scrolls, Greater Resto, Addy/Elly weapons .
    Especially with 2 rogue so you almost don't have to have anything on gear to boost umd.
    Shahang Nezhat Bellezza Wipekin Farida of Ghallanda

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Out of curiosity, what do you want UMD for?

    Back when I maxed UMD on mine, the only things I used it for were to scroll raise dead party members and the occasional (extremely rare) heal scroll in a pinch. I decided to drop UMD altogether because a) I have a greensteel clickie to raise dead, and b) it's more efficient/effective to use cc and instakill things instead of stopping to scroll heal somebody. Instead of trying to emergency scroll heal a frontline melee through a fight, far better to just mass hold whatever is trying to kill him.
    Just need Raise Dead, maybe a Harm scroll as well. UMD isn't absolutely necessary, but if I'm taking 2 Rogue anyways, it's senseless to ignore it.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merlin-ator View Post
    Drow Max INT, 14 CON, rest in CHA (UMD Raise Dead)

    Plan to solo most, if not all, low level quests

    I'm a fairly experienced Wizard player. I don't have every class feature memorized, but I often find myself giving advice to other Wizards. However, I've only ever played pure Wizards. When should I take Rogue?
    Take rog at level 1. The level 1 barbarian hire is good enough to get you to lvl 2. I would not take the next rog until after you get the chain missile SLA (so level 7 at the earliest).

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Greater Restoration for other party members? Lesser Restoration pots do everything a wizard might want on themselves, I would think. (Either pale master in undead form or warforged; in either case, immune to level drain.)
    Hi,

    Greater restoration is more for others, but the main argument for UMD is access to resurrection and heal scrolls.

    I really try to go out of my way, on my wizard, to support the party as much as I can. Being able to do these things, doing traps, being conscientious about buffing other party members, and being CC rather than instakill specced, all fits into that approach.

    By the way, I'm certainly not implying a criticism of people who run their wizards differently, this is just how I prefer to do it, after trying the other playstyles like the shiradi and the necromancer.

    Thanks.
    Astrican on Khyber

  16. #16

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    No criticism of scroll healing others. My experience with it was that it took so long to switch to the scrolls and start casting them that I ended up not doing any wizardy casting while scroll healing, effectively turning my arcane caster into a gimped nannybot while I was scrolling. When I experimented with using cc (mass hold, dancing ball, web, whatever) instead of scroll healing, the results were much better.

    If that reads as dismissive, apologies on the poor delivery. I enjoy the occasional nannybotting. After playing a cleric, which I didn't do until after I had gotten my wizard to cap, I realized just how gimp my scroll-healing wizard was at nannybotting. That's when I decided to try playing to his strengths and using cc instead.

    But yeah, if you don't have a raise clickie on a greensteel item, then umd is quite nice for raising.

    Quote Originally Posted by Merlin-ator View Post
    maybe a Harm scroll
    Oh man, I would so dearly love it if vendors sold harm scrolls. If they did, UMD would be the #1 priority skill for wizards.

  17. #17
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Rouge at lvl1 for skills.
    Use hoarded XP gems from daily dice to get past lvl1 if you can't stand playing thief.
    2nd wiz level after spell level/enhancemet you find most useful.
    Some people take it at lvl9 (after getting firewall) some at 15 (after finger).

    Loooong ago I went with 2nd level at 20, and I was OK (but this was robo-enchanter not PM).

  18. #18
    Community Member Cardtrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Oh man, I would so dearly love it if vendors sold harm scrolls. If they did, UMD would be the #1 priority skill for wizards.
    What I don't understand is why there's no market for these on the auction house. They drop occasionally -- not a lot, but occasionally. I haven't played a pale master in a while and I've got a stack stored away, so now I usually pop them on the auctionhouse with a cheap buyout -- 500 or 1000 plat, like I do for +5 thieves' tools. More about getting them to someone who can use them than making a profit. But the scrolls rarely if ever sell.

    I would honestly expect harm scrolls to sell for something more in the vicinity of a major mnemonic potion -- not quite as much, but maybe in the 5000 - 15000 range. Instead, it seems like no one even looks for them.

    I'd rather they have some trade value so that people would keep an eye out for them while questing and pop them on the auctionhouse for an affordable buyout, so that I could buy some next time on play a palemaster.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Zero View Post
    One day I just wrote "Why Do I Die So Much?" in party chat, and that is how I learned about fortification.

  19. #19
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    Hi,

    I don't really use scrolls to nanny other players in combat. As you say, EllisDee, it is slow and not that effective. CC does usually give better results at damage mitigation, outside of supporting a tank which is taking on something that is immune to it.

    Although it is nice to be able to scroll heal someone in an emergency, I mainly like heal scrolls for helping the party to recover in between encounters. It is useful if you don't have a bard or divine, or if you have party members who aren't all that self-sufficient. Heal scrolls are not only good for healing, but for taking care of other ailments too.

    However, I think being able to use resurrection scrolls is far more useful. Everyone should have at least one raise dead clicky as soon as they can afford it, if they can't use scrolls, but being able to resurrect a party member is much better.

    I certainly don't think you were being dismissive with your remarks about UMD. Skill points and especially AP are tight on a trapping wizard if you want both PM and AM goodness, and maybe some racial stuff too. It is good to see a discussion going about this, because there are certainly arguments both ways for the merits of UMD on an arcane caster.

    Thanks.
    Last edited by blerkington; 04-03-2014 at 05:12 PM.
    Astrican on Khyber

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by blerkington View Post
    I mainly like heal scrolls for helping the party to recover in between encounters.
    That's a solid use for umd on a wizard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardtrick View Post
    What I don't understand is why there's no market for [harm scrolls] on the auction house. [...] I usually pop them on the auctionhouse with a cheap buyout -- 500 or 1000 plat, like I do for +5 thieves' tools. More about getting them to someone who can use them than making a profit. But the scrolls rarely if ever sell.

    I would honestly expect harm scrolls to sell for something more in the vicinity of a major mnemonic potion -- not quite as much, but maybe in the 5000 - 15000 range. Instead, it seems like no one even looks for them.
    They are essentially heal scrolls that ignore healing amp, since pale masters get so little negative energy amplification.

    You buy stacks of 100 heal scrolls for 10k plat, or thereabouts, right? Would you pay 1000 plat for one single heal scroll?

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