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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standal View Post
    Very true. The devs have allowed pot healing to lag far behind all other forms and barbs are most affected by it. I'm tempted to say that they should just remove all negative effects from lesser SF pots (including 10 stack vs 100 stack), but that might be too much.
    I like it. Though I will admit that I rarely actually use SF pots, so I don't really know if it'll be too much.
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  2. #22
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    I'm completely against giving barbs any kind of spellcasting ability while raged, and definitely not cocoon. Making barbs the same as everyone else isn't the way to go. Lack of class diversity is already a big problem. Barbs are suppossed to be a high DPS/low self-sufficiency class. Let's keep them true to their nature.

    The solution is to give barbs a solid DPS buff. Because of all the sacrifices they make to self-sufficiency, a pure 20 barb should be without a doubt the best melee DPS in the game. It is only fair. They also need, as all medium and heavy armor wearing melees need, better defensive abilities in EE. The DPS buff could be done in many different ways...take your pick. The devs could increase rage to also add +W damage, Change the capstone to add extra damage and/or extra W damage, Increase the damage on the barb cleaves, add extra STR/CON to the rage bonus, ect.

    This will also help fight the lack of group diversity and the BYOH trend that most seem to not enjoy. Because if non-self sufficient DPS, AKA stupid DPS, actually did the most melee DPS again I guarantee you we would see a lot of them at endgame. Simply because people love seeing the biggest numbers possible even if the character isn't the best overall.
    Last edited by axel15810; 03-29-2014 at 03:00 PM.

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  3. #23
    2016 DDO Players Council Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post
    I'm completely against giving barbs any kind of spellcasting ability while raged, and definitely not cocoon. Making barbs the same as everyone else isn't the way to go. Lack of class diversity is already a big problem. Barbs are suppossed to be a high DPS/low self-sufficiency class. Let's keep them true to their nature.

    The solution is to give barbs a solid DPS buff. Because of all the sacrifices they make to self-sufficiency, a pure 20 barb should be without a doubt the best melee DPS in the game. It is only fair. They also need, as all medium and heavy armor wearing melees need, better defensive abilities in EE. The DPS buff could be done in many different ways...take your pick. The devs could increase rage to also add +W damage, Change the capstone to add extra damage and/or extra W damage, Increase the damage on the barb cleaves, add extra STR/CON to the rage bonus, ect.

    This will also help fight the lack of group diversity and the BYOH trend that most seem to not enjoy. Because if non-self sufficient DPS, AKA stupid DPS, actually did the most melee DPS again I guarantee you we would see a lot of them at endgame. Simply because people love seeing the biggest numbers possible even if the character isn't the best overall.
    Barbs really don't need a DPS buff. If built and geared well they are top melee in hand to hand combat. They just need a better form of self sufficiency on par with other classes and a better defense. Its actually a very easy fix if the devs can fix PRR and armor a little better and make barb DR scale better for epics.
    Gary Gygax quotes

    The essence of a role-playing game is that it is a group, cooperative experience.

    There is no winning or losing, but rather the value is in the experience of imagining yourself as a character in whatever genre you are involved in, whether its a fantasy game, the Wild West, secret agents or whatever else. You get to sort of vicariously experience those things.

    Role-playing isn't storytelling. If the dungeon master is directing it, its not a game.

    When AI approximates Machine Intelligence, than many online and computer run RPGs will move toward actual RPG activity. Nonetheless, that will not replace the experience of "being there" anymore than seeing a theatrical motion picture can replace the stage play.

    The secret we should never let the game masters know is that they don't need any rules.

  4. #24
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    I read the title of the thread and was about to come in here and just say no. Barbs can't cast spells when raged. However, the OP raises a valid point. Cocoon is a primal ability. Sure, it's an SLA, but so is primal scream and that one is fine for barbs. You could argue back and forth about whether cocoon is enough of a spell to be blocked by raging, but I think either could be possible. Because of this, if the devs decide to allow cocoon to be used while raging, I wouldn't have any lore related issues with it.

    At that point, it comes down to game balance issues. If it's fine for any other melee, I don't see an issue with allowing it for barbs while raged. If there is any imbalance here, it's an issue with cocoon and it's amazing self healing qualities itself and not with barbs specifically having a form of self healing.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by badbob117 View Post
    Maybe more folks would actually play a barb if we had a way to self heal and keep up with the current pace of the game? Were not doing the most dps anymore. Not even close. So something has to give. We can use Boulder toss and primal scream. Some would argue both of those are Spell like ability's. Hell, boulder toss was better on Casters then it was on melee since its arrival in 2012. Ya know the game is supposed to be about D&D. Not just Monks, Bladeforged and nuke bot casters.. The only viable option for a barb to self heal right now is pay to win with sovereign Healing potions. That has to change.

    Barbs got it rough man. If you do not believe roll one up and play him in end game. No ones gonna heal your ass anymore at lvl 28. No one even wants you in group. You are on your own now. Life is bleak for barbs. A lackuster enhancement tree combined with archaic mechanics make the class lame sauce. If they would have gotten the Enhancement tree's done right we would not be having this discussion. But they did not.

    Class needs a boost somewhere and somehow to keep up. Until then " You are to enraged to open up ddo store and spend money" Will be my moto!
    Yah you hit the nail here. I almost never see Barbarians in epics now, they are by far the rarest class. Most didn't survive I imagine or players quit or TR'd. I totally agree that no one wants them around.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    I read the title of the thread and was about to come in here and just say no. Barbs can't cast spells when raged. However, the OP raises a valid point. Cocoon is a primal ability. Sure, it's an SLA, but so is primal scream and that one is fine for barbs. You could argue back and forth about whether cocoon is enough of a spell to be blocked by raging, but I think either could be possible. Because of this, if the devs decide to allow cocoon to be used while raging, I wouldn't have any lore related issues with it.

    At that point, it comes down to game balance issues. If it's fine for any other melee, I don't see an issue with allowing it for barbs while raged. If there is any imbalance here, it's an issue with cocoon and it's amazing self healing qualities itself and not with barbs specifically having a form of self healing.
    Primal Scream can be argued that its not a spell like ability because its another form of rage much like the rage spell that doesn't prevent casting Cocoon is a spell like ability because it costs sp to use and can be boosted with Empower, Quicken and Enlarge. you cant do that with Primal Scream. Primal Scream seems to be kinda close to the epic barbarian feat Incite Rage.
    Gary Gygax quotes

    The essence of a role-playing game is that it is a group, cooperative experience.

    There is no winning or losing, but rather the value is in the experience of imagining yourself as a character in whatever genre you are involved in, whether its a fantasy game, the Wild West, secret agents or whatever else. You get to sort of vicariously experience those things.

    Role-playing isn't storytelling. If the dungeon master is directing it, its not a game.

    When AI approximates Machine Intelligence, than many online and computer run RPGs will move toward actual RPG activity. Nonetheless, that will not replace the experience of "being there" anymore than seeing a theatrical motion picture can replace the stage play.

    The secret we should never let the game masters know is that they don't need any rules.

  7. #27
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    Primal Scream can be argued that its not a spell like ability because its another form of rage much like the rage spell that doesn't prevent casting Cocoon is a spell like ability because it costs sp to use and can be boosted with Empower, Quicken and Enlarge. you cant do that with Primal Scream. Primal Scream seems to be kinda close to the epic barbarian feat Incite Rage.
    What if there were an ability exactly like cocoon, except it didn't cost sp and was not affected by metamagics? Would it be ok for a barb then? What I'm asking is, are an SP cost and metamagic possbility the things that are the sticking point here?
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    What if there were an ability exactly like cocoon, except it didn't cost sp and was not affected by metamagics? Would it be ok for a barb then? What I'm asking is, are an SP cost and metamagic possbility the things that are the sticking point here?
    Something that has some form of stacking counter running, per hit...

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    What if there were an ability exactly like cocoon, except it didn't cost sp and was not affected by metamagics? Would it be ok for a barb then? What I'm asking is, are an SP cost and metamagic possbility the things that are the sticking point here?
    in order to self heal there needs to be an explanation of how they are doing it. a barb isn't a caster so they have to regain hp in some other way. where are barbs getting this ability to suddenly heal up? I keep suggesting that barbs should have a high level enhancement, preferably in FOTW, that a barb is able to take the life force from enemies to regain hp. kinda like life stealing or regeneration from hits in the game, but make it like on vorpal hits and the hp taken from mobs would have to be probably 100hp or more to make it worth it. I wouldn't care if it was like 10x per rest or X uses per rest with a timer or something like that as long as it was worth it.
    Gary Gygax quotes

    The essence of a role-playing game is that it is a group, cooperative experience.

    There is no winning or losing, but rather the value is in the experience of imagining yourself as a character in whatever genre you are involved in, whether its a fantasy game, the Wild West, secret agents or whatever else. You get to sort of vicariously experience those things.

    Role-playing isn't storytelling. If the dungeon master is directing it, its not a game.

    When AI approximates Machine Intelligence, than many online and computer run RPGs will move toward actual RPG activity. Nonetheless, that will not replace the experience of "being there" anymore than seeing a theatrical motion picture can replace the stage play.

    The secret we should never let the game masters know is that they don't need any rules.

  10. #30
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    in order to self heal there needs to be an explanation of how they are doing it. a barb isn't a caster so they have to regain hp in some other way. where are barbs getting this ability to suddenly heal up? I keep suggesting that barbs should have a high level enhancement, preferably in FOTW, that a barb is able to take the life force from enemies to regain hp. kinda like life stealing or regeneration from hits in the game, but make it like on vorpal hits and the hp taken from mobs would have to be probably 100hp or more to make it worth it. I wouldn't care if it was like 10x per rest or X uses per rest with a timer or something like that as long as it was worth it.
    This ship sailed long ago. Fighters aren't casters and they can use cocoon. Rogues aren't casters and they can use cocoon. The trait of not being a caster isn't of any relevance in DDO terms when it comes to self healing. In pnp, sure. In DDO, that changed the minute they let any class use cocoon. The real discussion isn't whether barbs can use cocoon. They can, quite easily. The discussion is whether or not a barb should not be able to achieve the same self healing options as a fighter, rogue, monk, etc (all traditionally non self healing classes) when using a barbs main dps class skill, rage.

    Yes, there are probably other ways to get some survival abilities on a barb, much like your suggestion, but why are barbs cut off from self healing already available to other classes that "shouldn't" have self healing. A fighter using his full dps capability can heal with cocoon just fine. In pnp lore, this is just as ridiculous as a raging barb doing the same thing. We're really just getting stuck on the "rage stops spellcasting" here.
    Kaarloe - Degenerate Matter - Argonnessen

  11. #31

    Default What about adding some type of healing action while raging?

    I was just wondering if something could be added that give a barbarian rage the ability to self heal as well when rage is active. I'm not sure how it would work but Radiant Servants have an aura from their enhancement line that allows healing with out casting anything, instead they use up one of their turn undead attempts. I'm just wondering if something could be linked to Rage itself that will allow a barbarian to start healing after taking 'x' amount of damage or something while raging. Maybe somehow drawing on the natural life around it to give it some type of sustainability (not necessarily like draining the life force of others, but being rejuvenated by the life around it). Just a thought. This would allow barbarians to get some healing in while using their most definitive ability.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by badbob117 View Post
    It just does not make sense why a barb Cannot cast a primal feature.
    I bet that's your answer.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    This ship sailed long ago. Fighters aren't casters and they can use cocoon. Rogues aren't casters and they can use cocoon. The trait of not being a caster isn't of any relevance in DDO terms when it comes to self healing. In pnp, sure. In DDO, that changed the minute they let any class use cocoon. The real discussion isn't whether barbs can use cocoon. They can, quite easily. The discussion is whether or not a barb should not be able to achieve the same self healing options as a fighter, rogue, monk, etc (all traditionally non self healing classes) when using a barbs main dps class skill, rage.

    Yes, there are probably other ways to get some survival abilities on a barb, much like your suggestion, but why are barbs cut off from self healing already available to other classes that "shouldn't" have self healing. A fighter using his full dps capability can heal with cocoon just fine. In pnp lore, this is just as ridiculous as a raging barb doing the same thing. We're really just getting stuck on the "rage stops spellcasting" here.
    yes, the ship has sailed long ago, but it doesn't mean the ship cant come back. the topic was about barbs so I stuck to that. I don't agree that we should continue developing a game based on PnP and continue going further and further away from its roots. I try to put my 2 cents in to keep that core balance together, understanding that there needs to be some sort of exaggeration in an MMO, but im usually odd opinion out. if barbs were given the ability to cast while raged I would consider them too OP and broken. I bet anything that, depending on if the devs allowed this and how much of it was allowed, barbs would be the next "nerf barbs, they are too OP" topic. I would stop playing them if this happened.
    Gary Gygax quotes

    The essence of a role-playing game is that it is a group, cooperative experience.

    There is no winning or losing, but rather the value is in the experience of imagining yourself as a character in whatever genre you are involved in, whether its a fantasy game, the Wild West, secret agents or whatever else. You get to sort of vicariously experience those things.

    Role-playing isn't storytelling. If the dungeon master is directing it, its not a game.

    When AI approximates Machine Intelligence, than many online and computer run RPGs will move toward actual RPG activity. Nonetheless, that will not replace the experience of "being there" anymore than seeing a theatrical motion picture can replace the stage play.

    The secret we should never let the game masters know is that they don't need any rules.

  14. #34
    Community Member fmalfeas's Avatar
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    I doubt they're willing to directly buff barbs. So, how about something like this?

    Amulet of the Uthgardt Vampire
    ML 21
    Neck slot
    Binds to Character on Equip
    Deathblock IV
    Least Extra Rage - Grants 1 additional use of Barbarian Rage per rest.
    Lesser Corpselike Rage - Adds stacking 1/- DR per barbarian level when raging. Immune to positive energy while raging.
    Vampiric Rage - While raging, your melee attacks heal you for 10% of the damage dealt. Not positive energy (ignores heal amp, and warforged/bladeforged healing penalties, and works in undead form for the bizarre PM/Barb).
    Flavor text - An ancient hero of the Uthgardt Barbarians became a vampire ages ago. His reign of terror was unmatched. A powerful necromancer finally bested him, and using arts best left forgotten, merged him into a magical amulet. Now that you've destroyed the necromancer, the amulet and it's power are yours.

    There. Barbs get self healing, clerics don't cry when they see barbs, barbs rage all the time again, we get a cool fight against a nasty melee necro to get the item, and people might even start splashing barb instead of monk or paladin. Just because of a piece of loot.

    Edit - The reason I split all the stuff up in the powers is because I don't want to see things like the Mantle problems. (because Sunbeam blinds, and Blind is a level 2 spell, liches are immune to Sunbeam...because coding spells is hard.) With them split into seperate effects, should turbine upgrade one of them in a later item, it won't break the whole thing should you equip an item with say, 'Lesser Extra Rage' instead of Least.

  15. #35
    Community Member Ivan_Milic's Avatar
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    Life stealing ability or item for barbs would be great, for the amount of dmg you do, certain % of that damage will heal you.
    Thats how some other games dealt with it.

  16. #36
    Community Member Raoull's Avatar
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    I don't think it is appropriate for Barbarians to use cocoon while raging. It costs SP, which makes it closer to a spell than not.

    That said, they definitely need some help.

    On a similar Healing SLA note, Healing Spring does not cost SP. So a barb using Healing Spring while raged seems acceptable to me.

    But the real problem, is that there is a rager destiny, and it does have a self healing ability.... and it is HORRIBLE.

    Compare......

    Things that Spring is better at:
    Spring: 150 HP per minute
    Fast Healing: 60 HPs per minute
    (simple math, actual numbers are trivially higher)

    Spring: Uses Spell Power (trivial to double the effect, possible to go substantially more, even on a Barb 20)
    FH: no

    Spring: Heals the entire Party (up to 12 people)
    FH: self only

    Spring: Heals every 20 seconds
    FH: only heals every MINUTE!!!
    This is big..... a minute is an insanely long time in game for something like this. Even 20 seconds is a long while. (Note: this is also what makes the eTR healing feat horrible.)


    Fast Healing is better due to:
    Spring: only 5 minutes per Shrine (can be more with extra twists / in shiradi)
    FH: always on

    Spring: turns off when you die
    FH: always on


    Looking at these more quantitatively.....

    Raw numbers: Spring is 2.5X better
    Spell Power: Spring is 2X better (a low ball number)
    Heals party: Spring is 3X better (this is rather subjective, but 3X seems reasonable)
    FH dosen't shut off when you die: FH is 2X better (subjective)
    Spring only lasts 5 mins per shrine: FH is 2X better (subjective... plenty of quests hit shrines per 5 mins, on occasion, this is major though)

    So.... using my Subjective analysis, I'd say that Spring is 3.75X as good as FH.
    And that is completely ignoring the fact that it triggers every 20 seconds rather than every minute.

    So, I propose 3 changes to Fast Healing:

    1) Instead of upping the dice at various tiers, change the time ala Spring so FH tier 3 heals every 20 seconds.
    2) Buff the healing by 3X. By my math, this still makes Spring Superior, but only minorly so. For others with different subjective opinions on how to weight differences, perhaps they become equal, or perhaps FH is slightly better, but in any case I bet the are pretty close.

    In other words, tier 3 Fast Healing should be worth 6d20, every 20 seconds.

    and the big one for this thread.....

    3) If you are currently raging like a barbarian (primal scream / rage spell don't count, only rages that don't let you cast spells.... I guess Madstone could count) this healing affect is doubled (tripled?).

    It is in the Barbarian tree, after all. It would be nice to have a piece of it that works dramatically better on barbarians than it does.... archers.....


    All total, this isn't going to make Barbarian's self sufficient per se, but it will help greatly. And it will give another decent twist option for other melees to self heal that doesn't rely on them having a blue bar. It would mean there are 3 different self healing twists available.... choice is good. I doubt anyone would take all 3, but perhaps some might take 2 (some probably take 2 now... I certainly always have cocoon and heal scrolls at a minimum).


    Thoughts?
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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by fmalfeas View Post
    I doubt they're willing to directly buff barbs. So, how about something like this?

    Amulet of the Uthgardt Vampire
    ML 21
    Neck slot
    Binds to Character on Equip
    Deathblock IV
    Least Extra Rage - Grants 1 additional use of Barbarian Rage per rest.
    Lesser Corpselike Rage - Adds stacking 1/- DR per barbarian level when raging. Immune to positive energy while raging.
    Vampiric Rage - While raging, your melee attacks heal you for 10% of the damage dealt. Not positive energy (ignores heal amp, and warforged/bladeforged healing penalties, and works in undead form for the bizarre PM/Barb).
    Flavor text - An ancient hero of the Uthgardt Barbarians became a vampire ages ago. His reign of terror was unmatched. A powerful necromancer finally bested him, and using arts best left forgotten, merged him into a magical amulet. Now that you've destroyed the necromancer, the amulet and it's power are yours.

    There. Barbs get self healing, clerics don't cry when they see barbs, barbs rage all the time again, we get a cool fight against a nasty melee necro to get the item, and people might even start splashing barb instead of monk or paladin. Just because of a piece of loot.

    Edit - The reason I split all the stuff up in the powers is because I don't want to see things like the Mantle problems. (because Sunbeam blinds, and Blind is a level 2 spell, liches are immune to Sunbeam...because coding spells is hard.) With them split into seperate effects, should turbine upgrade one of them in a later item, it won't break the whole thing should you equip an item with say, 'Lesser Extra Rage' instead of Least.
    Quite like it - gets round lore AND fixes the problem. Should add MOAR awesome ofc (last statement may be biased.)

  18. #38
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    Barbs are lacking so many different things that any small thing like adding cocoon really won't change much.

    You have a melee class unable to use most ED's and ED abilities due to interfering with rage, a lack of spell power, and lack of mana.

    Then add in a lack of resistance against epic level physical damage because their base few extra hp and tiny amount of DR they get at levels 1-20 of 1d12 doesn't scale higher up.

    Then add in a total lack of resistance against epic level magical damage.

    Then add in a lack of feats for ranged options or tactics for CC.

    The lack of self healing doesn't really matter while other problems exist, and should be a trade off for some really strong ability. The fundamental problem of course, is that as a heroic ability rage can't give that really strong epic ability tradeoff power without destroying early game balance. So it is heroic power, which fades in epics (although Critical Rage does scale).

    Cocoon is like adding wings to a car missing an engine. The car still doesn't run, and the wings just don't fit. It is better to fix the car, which in this case is that rage and barb DR doesn't scale like say paladin divine might/grace ones do.

    Even if you add cocoon AND scale barb Rage and DR to scale like divine might/grace to compensate for a lack of self healing, so they grow to epic levels to balance out the loss of using epic abilities, you still have a melee class with a total lack of protection against epic level magical damage, where the end game content are dragons that 1 shot people without elemental protection.

    Maybe if instead of 1d12 barbs were 1d10 with % bonus hp scaling like how FvS or Sorc Mana works, you could lightly mask the total lack of protection against epic level magic damage. Since epic normal dragons in the new raids toss out fireballs continuously that hit for 1k, that % bonus hp scaling based on %barb level better grow to be close to 100%.
    Last edited by Tilomere; 03-30-2014 at 02:44 AM.

  19. #39
    2016 DDO Players Council Qhualor's Avatar
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    healing spring isn't a guaranteed 150 hp. its a random number that can even heal you for 1 hp regardless of heal amp.

    I agree that 1 minute is too long for healing and fighting against mobs hand to hand, 20 seconds is too long too especially if it just heals for such a low number. if 150 was actually guaranteed, than 20 seconds would be ok for maybe other classes but not melees in the middle of combat. also figure in that barbs, and this goes for tanks, will have very high hp. its typical to see barbs with 1200+ hp by level 28. with lack of defense to shrug off pain, casters blasting away, low will saves, mobs that deal 300+ damage consistently and FBs that self inflict pain for more damage output they need heals that are fast and plentiful.
    Gary Gygax quotes

    The essence of a role-playing game is that it is a group, cooperative experience.

    There is no winning or losing, but rather the value is in the experience of imagining yourself as a character in whatever genre you are involved in, whether its a fantasy game, the Wild West, secret agents or whatever else. You get to sort of vicariously experience those things.

    Role-playing isn't storytelling. If the dungeon master is directing it, its not a game.

    When AI approximates Machine Intelligence, than many online and computer run RPGs will move toward actual RPG activity. Nonetheless, that will not replace the experience of "being there" anymore than seeing a theatrical motion picture can replace the stage play.

    The secret we should never let the game masters know is that they don't need any rules.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post
    I'm completely against giving barbs any kind of spellcasting ability while raged, and definitely not cocoon. Making barbs the same as everyone else isn't the way to go. Lack of class diversity is already a big problem. Barbs are suppossed to be a high DPS/low self-sufficiency class. Let's keep them true to their nature.

    The solution is to give barbs a solid DPS buff. Because of all the sacrifices they make to self-sufficiency, a pure 20 barb should be without a doubt the best melee DPS in the game. It is only fair. They also need, as all medium and heavy armor wearing melees need, better defensive abilities in EE. The DPS buff could be done in many different ways...take your pick. The devs could increase rage to also add +W damage, Change the capstone to add extra damage and/or extra W damage, Increase the damage on the barb cleaves, add extra STR/CON to the rage bonus, ect.

    This will also help fight the lack of group diversity and the BYOH trend that most seem to not enjoy. Because if non-self sufficient DPS, AKA stupid DPS, actually did the most melee DPS again I guarantee you we would see a lot of them at endgame. Simply because people love seeing the biggest numbers possible even if the character isn't the best overall.
    Gotta ask ... are you actually playing a top level pure or 18/2 dps barb at the moment? I ask 'cos to me with mine, in LD, on a full rampage does not feel shorted on DPS; BUT ... without a dedicated pocket healer or awfully understanding nanny in the party, I either get taken out way too often (despite solid investment in dodge/incorp/etc mitigation,) or waste 25% of my time on potion-chugging animations.
    A Barb fix needs to be better mitigation, not more DPS - without pot slugging and stone time, DPS would be great already. A DR or PRR score high enough to matter (both? ) would be most logical.

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