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  1. #1
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Default Needle versus Thunderholme xbow

    Needle versus Thunderholme weapons.

    A few assumptions:
    - I’m not accounting for precision (up to +30%), bonuses from standing still in Shiradi (+10), the extra crit damage from Legendary Dreadnaught, or Overwhelming Critical, etc.
    - I’m assuming +15 seeker b/c it’s easy to achieve now. +17 would be max seeker, if you had an EE Consuming Darkness
    - I’m not adding in sneak damage, since it would be equal for both weapons
    - I’m ignoring the red/orange slot, since it can be equal for both weapons
    - Int damage from Intelligent Strikes is set at 20
    - Deadly is set to 10, but it could be as high as 11
    - I’m assuming feats appropriate for repeaters – improved critical, point blank range, etc
    - NOTE: all values above what my assumptions are that are added to base damage increase Needle’s dps greater than Thunderholme’s b/c of its crit multiplier.

    Damage sources:
    Weapon: (2-12) for N, rounded to 7; (1-10) for T, rounded to 5.5
    Weapon bonus: +11 for N, +15 for T (b/c of artie bonuses)
    Int: +20
    Deadly: +10
    Battle Engineer: +5
    Battle Engineer: +3 to crits
    Seeker: +10
    Exceptional Seeker: +5
    Black Dragon armor: +2 for T; +4 Prowess for Needle

    Weapon multipliers:
    Deadly: +1
    Point Blank Range: +1
    Combat Archer: +1
    Weapon: 2.5 for N; 4.5 for T

    Average shot:

    Needle:
    [5.5(7)+(11+20+10+5+4)]*12+[3*5.5(7)+(11+20+10+5+4+10+5+3)]*7+0(0.05)*1=

    164.925

    Thunderholme:
    [7.5(5.5)+(15+20+10+5+2)]*12+[2*7.5(5.5)+(15+20+10+5+2+10+5+3)]*7+0(0.05)*1=

    133.825

    Unless I've made mistakes, which is entirely possible, Needle pulls ahead on base damage, despite Thunderholme having higher weapon multipliers. And if you can add more damage that multiplies, Needle will pull even more ahead – full seeker, archer’s focus, any kind of multiplier or bonus, etc. If you don’t have full seeker, or high base damage additions (like deadly and prowess), you’re better off in Thunderholme b/c of the additional damage (below).

    Let’s add Thunderholme’s additional damage and compare. This is much more complex, since you can build quite a few combinations. So I’m going to go with:

    Touch of flames: 10-60
    Dragon’s edge: 22-105 on crit
    Crippling Flames: 135-325 on crit (plus lvl drain)
    (though Burning Emptiness adds more raw damage: 55-110 *5 fire on vorpal, 108-260 neg dam on crit – it’s just that this one is situationally poor – can’t make full use of it in either of the new raids and level drain is a massively powerful attack)

    Needle: 3-24 bleed damage = +13.5
    Thunderholme: {(35*19)+[(63.5+230)*7]+0}/20 =
    (665+2054.5)/20 = +135.975

    So, against fire susceptible mobs, Thunderholme comes out ahead. Against fire immune mobs, Needle comes out ahead (even including Dragon’s Edge). If you choose any of the CC abilities of Thunderholme over damage, Needle pulls ahead in terms of dps (but not necessarily survivability). Needle’s crit profile is truly hard to beat – and Thunderholme only does so through added damage.

    I'm kind of glad we have a weapon comparable to Needle. It's better in some situations and not others, and is capable of being turned into a CC weapon for soloing and group support.

  2. #2
    The Hatchery CThruTheEgo's Avatar
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    Nice work Singular. Thanks for going through the calculations.

    I noticed something interesting tonight. Two handed thunder forged weapons gain a red slot with the tier 2 upgrade. Given that heavy repeaters are two handed weapons, I can't imagine that they wouldn't get the red slot (although I'd still like confirmation from someone before crafting one myself ).

    If that's the case, then thunder forged heavy repeaters get both an orange and a red slot, allowing artis to slot two types of spell power. Force for the obvious synergy with arti spells, and either acid or electric for energy burst and rune arm (if acid) or SLAs (if electric).

    Thanks to your calcs, we can see just how close Needle and a thunder forged repeater are in damage. With two slots to offer, I'd say the thunder forged repeater pulls ahead. So it looks like I'll be putting together a new gear setup for Dubbell this week.
    Unarmed monk guide with builds|The Arcane Warrior: wiz/fighter hybrids|White Feather Sniper: CC/dps focused deepwood stalker|The Divine Cuisinart: divine crusader tempest|The Count of Monte Cristo: swashbuckler|Hassan's Assassin: dex assassin|Dubbell O'Seven: WF artificer|Santa's Little Slayer: dragonmarked elf centered kensai

  3. #3
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Woops! I made some mistakes above. I calculated as if we were getting crits from 14-20, but I think it's only 16-20. Also, I added +5 damage for Battle Engineer, when I think it's only +2 (I added the +3 from the core elsewhere). I will get around to fixing that at some point - Needle will still come out ahead, but not by as much. If you have an additional +3 to damage, then the above is correct (like 3 monk past lives, or 1 ranger +2 monk, or higher deadly).

    RE: red slot on Xbow, I don't think it will get one. Initially, I thought so too, but if you look at what kind of weapon type the Xbows are, it's listed at "ranged" and not "two hander." Still, I hope they do get the extra slot! Since Boulder Toss will be gone soon, that would help us expand what spell power we can buff - or just add extra dps to your weapon.

    Because they are so close in damage, with Thunder pulling ahead b/c of additional damage procs, I'm wondering how well a Great Crossbow would be. They have a slightly higher damage profile, more bonuses to damage, a larger crit range, but reduced rpm. I suspect Heavy Repeaters will still win out, though. One could even try Light Repeaters, since they enjoy slightly higher rates of fire - that would increase the damage procs.

  4. #4
    Community Member thegreatneil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo View Post
    Given that heavy repeaters are two handed weapons...
    Then how would you have a rune arm in your offhand I wonder.
    You'll bend to my will - With or without your precious sanity.

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    Everyone who is more effective than me is OP, and should be nerfed.
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  5. #5
    The Hatchery CThruTheEgo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singular View Post
    RE: red slot on Xbow, I don't think it will get one. Initially, I thought so too, but if you look at what kind of weapon type the Xbows are, it's listed at "ranged" and not "two hander."
    Given DDO's history of odd coding mechanics, I wouldn't be surprised if you were right about this. I guess the only way to know for sure is for someone to craft one and find out.

    Quote Originally Posted by thegreatneil View Post
    Then how would you have a rune arm in your offhand I wonder.
    Artificers using rune arms are a special case. If you remember, when artis first came out there was some whining on the forums about how it wasn't fair that artis could use something in their offhand while having a crossbow equipped. No other class can do this. Everyone else can only equip one crossbow and that's it. Artificers can't even equip something else in the offhand, only rune arms, so it's an exception to the rule.

    I would classify crossbows as two handed because they take up both hand slots. You can't equip two crossbows, after all, so they are certainly not one handed weapons. But Singular might be right about it being classified as "ranged." DDO has a lot of weird coding (e.g. handwraps). So there's really only one way to know for sure and that is to make one and find out.
    Unarmed monk guide with builds|The Arcane Warrior: wiz/fighter hybrids|White Feather Sniper: CC/dps focused deepwood stalker|The Divine Cuisinart: divine crusader tempest|The Count of Monte Cristo: swashbuckler|Hassan's Assassin: dex assassin|Dubbell O'Seven: WF artificer|Santa's Little Slayer: dragonmarked elf centered kensai

  6. #6
    The Hatchery CThruTheEgo's Avatar
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    You were right Singular. Confirmed here that the heavy repeater does not get a red slot at tier 2. Oh well.
    Unarmed monk guide with builds|The Arcane Warrior: wiz/fighter hybrids|White Feather Sniper: CC/dps focused deepwood stalker|The Divine Cuisinart: divine crusader tempest|The Count of Monte Cristo: swashbuckler|Hassan's Assassin: dex assassin|Dubbell O'Seven: WF artificer|Santa's Little Slayer: dragonmarked elf centered kensai

  7. #7
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo View Post
    You were right Singular. Confirmed here that the heavy repeater does not get a red slot at tier 2. Oh well.
    Yeah, that sucks. Not totally surprised, but it kind of sucks.

    Since they're nerfing arties, I think they need to give us upgraded rune arms that come with one red or orange slot. We're the generalists! Yet their current mechanics are forcing us to specialize.

  8. #8
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    While not entirely relevant to the topic at hand, I had a question about the thunderforged repeaters and some on-hit effects.

    As you mentioned above, a thunderforged repeater could turn into a nice cc/support machine. You can put '1st Degree Burns' on a repeater:

    --1st Degree Burns: On Hit: Applies a stack of Vulnerable (1% more damage for 3 seconds. This effect stacks up to 20 times, and loses one stack on expiration.) This effect may only occur on-hit once every two seconds. Also 5 to 30 Fire Damage.

    Now, it says it can occur once every two seconds, but repeaters are known to be buggy and glitchy on some things. Since repeaters can strike 3 times in one 'hit', how is this calculated? Does it simply add 1 stack every 2 seconds, or would that be 3 stacks every 2 seconds (or however many shots were accurate)? Has anyone tested this?

    Also, what other on-hit effects would be relevant to a CC/support repeater? Obviously, thunderforged weapons are either strong against/weak against the two different dragon types at the current end-game (fire or neg energy), thus preventing them from being a be-all/end-all, which makes the middle ground a viable option. There seems to be a few options for this:

    Tier 1
    1st Degree Burns: On Hit: Applies a stack of Vulnerable (1% more damage for 3 seconds. This effect stacks up to 20 times, and loses one stack on expiration.) This effect may only occur on-hit once every two seconds. Also 5 to 30 Fire Damage.

    Tier 2
    2nd Degree Burns: On Hit: 10% chance to slow 50% (No Save) for 10 sec (non-bosses only).

    Paralyzing Fear: On Hit: 5% chance to Paralyze for 5 sec. (No save)

    Tier 3
    Leg Breaker: On Hit: 5% Chance Reflex Save -5, Trip Attempt.

    Mind Breaker: On Hit: 5% Chance Will Save -5, Hold Monster Attempt.

    Body Breaker: On Hit: 5% Chance Fortitude Save -5, Sunder Attempt.


    Personally, I think 1st degree burns/paralyzing fear/mind breaker looks like a good combination (except against undead, but that's what the silver slinger is for).

  9. #9
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Thank you for outlining the CC aspects of the weapons - yes, it certainly looks like you make a good CC repeater (esp w/IPS). That, for me, is a long off plan. I'm going to make a dps one, then one for my sorc and two for my twf. Incidentally, these weapons put twf back into high dps mode - khopesh have a better crit profile than Needle and Thunderholme will add all that extra damage for both weapons.

  10. #10
    Intergalactic Space Crusader
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    Thumbs up Moar!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Singular View Post
    Yeah, that sucks. Not totally surprised, but it kind of sucks.

    Since they're nerfing arties, I think they need to give us upgraded rune arms that come with one red or orange slot. We're the generalists! Yet their current mechanics are forcing us to specialize.
    I agree on both counts.

    RED and/or ORANGE augment slots for arty love now!

    Let's aim for a 3rd Enhancement Tree and an ED too.

    Lokeal has some concept rune arms if inspiration is needed:
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5268823

    and this one to:
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...rize-option%29
    Last edited by Livmo; 03-26-2014 at 11:45 PM.

  11. #11
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    While not entirely relevant to the topic at hand, I had a question about the thunderforged repeaters and some on-hit effects.

    As you mentioned above, a thunderforged repeater could turn into a nice cc/support machine. You can put '1st Degree Burns' on a repeater:

    --1st Degree Burns: On Hit: Applies a stack of Vulnerable (1% more damage for 3 seconds. This effect stacks up to 20 times, and loses one stack on expiration.) This effect may only occur on-hit once every two seconds. Also 5 to 30 Fire Damage.

    Now, it says it can occur once every two seconds, but repeaters are known to be buggy and glitchy on some things. Since repeaters can strike 3 times in one 'hit', how is this calculated? Does it simply add 1 stack every 2 seconds, or would that be 3 stacks every 2 seconds (or however many shots were accurate)? Has anyone tested this?
    1st Degree Burns: On Hit: Applies a stack of Vulnerable (1% more damage for 3 seconds. This effect stacks up to 20 times, and loses one stack on expiration.) This effect may only occur on-hit once every two seconds.

    That's exactly how it works with repeaters don't matter how many bolts a fired only 1 stack can be applied at a time

    Also I haven't been able to confirm but, I am fairly certain in my game play vulnerable only effects the fire damage

  12. #12
    Community Member Cardtrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxarhamar View Post
    Also I haven't been able to confirm but, I am fairly certain in my game play vulnerable only effects the fire damage
    No -- Vulnerable affects all incoming damage. It's a pretty standard debuff now, available from multiple sources (warpriest, air savant, etc.).
    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Zero View Post
    One day I just wrote "Why Do I Die So Much?" in party chat, and that is how I learned about fortification.

  13. #13
    Community Member Magic_Engineer's Avatar
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    Default Vulnerable proc rate

    So I put 1st deg. burns on a heavy repeater and saw that it applied Vulnerable once. Is the timing of Vulnerable vs. the repeater firing rate such that it will only apply once, ever, and never stack up to 20? Or 5, or whatever before you drop your target?

  14. #14
    Community Member Cardtrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Engineer View Post
    So I put 1st deg. burns on a heavy repeater and saw that it applied Vulnerable once. Is the timing of Vulnerable vs. the repeater firing rate such that it will only apply once, ever, and never stack up to 20? Or 5, or whatever before you drop your target?
    It applies no more than once every 3 seconds. You'll only build up large stacks against enemies with a lot of HP -- like bosses in EN or pretty much anything in high level EEs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Zero View Post
    One day I just wrote "Why Do I Die So Much?" in party chat, and that is how I learned about fortification.

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