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  1. #41
    Community Member Grimlock's Avatar
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    Make evasion an in game item. They have rings of evasion in PnP for 25,000gp. Add it to a raid item list, make it a Tier 3 upgrade requiring Comms plus other stuff or make it a quest chain end reward option. Make it a Blue augment ML 28 that drops only in certain locations (personal choice).

    Second solution - capstone for Fighters granting evasion for 1-2 minutes/clickie. This can be used in conjunction with the fighter attack/haste type effects from the enhancement tree. Even adding evasion as a capstone still will not win over a lot of the martial players from taking monk levels, but it is a start. Until Turbine reassesses how multiclassing works and adds some penalty for doing so people will still continue to multiclass.

    Third solution - level 28 martial feat requiring two destinies within that martial sphere to be capped before you can take it.
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  2. #42
    Community Member Miow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    That's surprisingly bitter for someone I don't even know. No wonder the dev. team does not descent to the forums very often. Coming from a modding community (boy it does get heated!), I have to say that I have seen new levels of nasty around here. What do people even intend to achieve being so disrespectful to each other. Not being taken seriously? Check!
    Don't worry about it he's just a like that cranky old fella down the road, he just doesn't want you to see his soft side. Cranky ol dorf he is.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wongar View Post
    Post prompted somewhat by seeing an LFM for Haunted Halls that read "Evasion Required, BYOH".

    Required may be a bit strong but it's hard to argue that having evasion is a significant advantage in the new content. I would guess that future content will be along the same lines so would like to discuss some ideas on how to not need 2monk, 2rouge, or 9ranger on every build that wants to do level 28 and higher content.

    My general goals and objectives-of the post:
    - Give non evasion builds a meaningful way to mitigate elemental damage
    - Should not negatively impact any current build
    - Should be easy to implement in the existing game framework
    - Should be available to any build with a reasonable investment

    Suggestion 1: Make evasion available to all builds.
    Make it a selectable feat - something like "Epic Evasion". It could be a general or Epic feat with a requirement of level 26 so that it did not affect existing lower level content, or it could be made an Epic Destiny Feat that requires two capped Martial sphere destinies and level 28 if there was a need to really restrict it. Either way, it would require a feat selection and not be selectable until you reach content where it really gimps a build that does not have it.

    Suggestion 2: Reduce the need to have evasion.
    The easiest way I see to remove the requirement for evasion is to offer some other meaningful way to mitigate elemental damage and the easiest way to do this is remove the requirement to be actively blocking from the energy absorption methods that currently require it (Shield Deflection, US Block Energy, Divine PL Feat Block Energy.) Requiring blocking makes these highly situational and mostly useless. It is not often that you can just block, or see a tell and hope you can react quick enough to overcome lag and block in time. Removing the current actively blocking requirement and making these always on would actually make them useful and worth an investment. While this would help the general survivability of a build, it would not help much with specific encounters like Miior in HH that specifically favor evasion. This would be a much better option for builds that utilize medium/heavy armor and would help reduce some of the downside of using heavier armor.

    I see multiple ways to remove the active blocking requirement:
    (suggesting to implement one or a variant of one - not all at the same time - listed in my order of preference)

    2a: Simply remove it - easiest and most flexible. Only downside is possible balance issues but I don't see it as a big problem. When you consider that evasion is a free feat and can be built to near 0 damage 95-100% of the time, I don't think giving a build a constant 40% max chance at 0 damage from Shield Deflection or 30% absorption (52% absorption if both US Block Energy, Divine PL Feat Block Energy are maxed, active and stack) is out of line considering that all in they can't provide the same defense that evasion does and require Feat/Fate/Past Life Stance investment.

    2b: Have a defensive stance requirement. For example you could require any Defensive Stance (Defensive Fighting, Combat Expertise, Stalwart Defense, or Sacred Defense) be active to have the abilities always on. If the stance requirement was not met they function as they do now. This would impose the penalties of the stance for the gain of always on absorption and allow for more general situational use. Could still be available to any build wanting to invest in it and keeps the theme of trading offensive for defense without going to the extreme of near 0 offensive that blocking requires.

    2c: Modify the existing Shield Deflection Feat to something like:
    "While holding a Shield you are proficient with, you gain a Competence bonus based on the type of shield to completly ignore Acid, Cold, Electic and Fire damage. (Buckler: 20%, Small Shield: 25%, Large Shield 30%, Tower Shield: 40% ). Additionally, any energy absorption ability that requires actively blocking is active and does not require blocking as long as any shield is held." Note that this would require a shield be held so may significantly impact the capabilities of some builds when it was "Switched on" by holding a shield.
    To be honest these posts about how evasion is required in end game are making me ill. It is not required and honestly are not very beneficial at all.

    Too many of the OPs with people that are passing mis-informed knowledge. Evasion does absolutely no good without the reflex save. In epic elite end game the only people making their reflex save is 65-70+ so <65 + evasion = full damage. Without evasion if you make your reflex save you get half damage. Imp evasion is ideal, but only 9 rogue or 9 monk will get you that.

    So OP, please stop passing this incorrect, infectious knowledge on the forums to those that may not know any better. What you want in end game and the same as it always have been is good saves and skill to avoid. By the way I play 1 of 3 toons with evasion but all have 65+ reflex save.

  4. #44
    Community Member Grimlock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    That's surprisingly bitter for someone I don't even know. No wonder the dev. team does not descent to the forums very often. Coming from a modding community (boy it does get heated!), I have to say that I have seen new levels of nasty around here. What do people even intend to achieve being so disrespectful to each other. Not being taken seriously? Check!
    Hey Kid, have some respect. Vellrad has been around for a lot longer since January of this year.
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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post
    It's stupid that evasion is the only real way to mitigate spell damage in the entire game, and it's only available to unarmored or low armored toons.

    We need something for heavy armor wearers. How about introducing higher elemental absorption items on heavy armor? Maybe put it in an augment form and make it not stack with evasion?
    If the elemental absorption items stacked properly, there is already enough. They don't stack properly however. Pallys can get over 100% absorption but it equates to 50% in actuality.

  6. #46
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimlock View Post
    Make evasion an in game item. They have rings of evasion in PnP for 25,000gp. Add it to a raid item list, make it a Tier 3 upgrade requiring Comms plus other stuff or make it a quest chain end reward option. Make it a Blue augment ML 28 that drops only in certain locations (personal choice).

    Second solution - capstone for Fighters granting evasion for 1-2 minutes/clickie. This can be used in conjunction with the fighter attack/haste type effects from the enhancement tree. Even adding evasion as a capstone still will not win over a lot of the martial players from taking monk levels, but it is a start. Until Turbine reassesses how multiclassing works and adds some penalty for doing so people will still continue to multiclass.

    Third solution - level 28 martial feat requiring two destinies within that martial sphere to be capped before you can take it.
    Making an evasion item would be a "must have". It would also be too OP.

    There are feats I came across in homebrew or something like that where barbarians could get evasion. I also came across feats where you could use your fortitude instead of reflex for saves. There are PnP options that could be implemented.

    To me, evasion is the easy button, especially since not going pure isn't a big loss in anything. There is no real trade off when 2/9 levels or gear can make up for it. I do see a lot of misinformed knowledge being spread about evasion too and I think a better "fix" to this should be looking into how characters without evasion can mitigate damage better instead of adding more power creep.

  7. #47
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimlock View Post
    Hey Kid, have some respect. Vellrad has been around for a lot longer since January of this year.
    Hi Grimlock, Welcome to the Internets, where the sum entirety of your self importance plus one dollar will get you a cheesburger at McD's.

  8. #48
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    This is a player problem, it won't be solved by game mechanics.
    It's not a player problem - it's the response of players to the content.

    Unless, if by 'player problem,' you mean 'can't survive the encounter, despite being fully geared out in every possible way, without evasion.'

  9. #49
    Community Member Grimlock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    Making an evasion item would be a "must have". It would also be too OP.

    There are feats I came across in homebrew or something like that where barbarians could get evasion. I also came across feats where you could use your fortitude instead of reflex for saves. There are PnP options that could be implemented.

    To me, evasion is the easy button, especially since not going pure isn't a big loss in anything. There is no real trade off when 2/9 levels or gear can make up for it. I do see a lot of misinformed knowledge being spread about evasion too and I think a better "fix" to this should be looking into how characters without evasion can mitigate damage better instead of adding more power creep.
    Making an evasion item would not be OP. Think about the reasons people multiclass. Evasion is the number one reason shortly followed by Saves/AC boost. The incentive for multiclassing is still there, but this also allows players to take advantage of a capstone for their class if they want.

    Going pure is certainly a loss of AC, Saves, Evasion, Skills, and in many cases Feats not to mention access to the enhancements those additional classes offer.
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  10. #50
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Evasion is not the only way to mitigate AOE spell damage. I play an 18/1/1 bard on most servers and have been able to deal with higher amounts of damage by preparing for it. The one major weakness of that build is reflex save that says /fail in the column instead of having a number.

    50 points of resist from gear
    50% reduction from a twist on acid
    ~33% electrical reduction from ring of djinn
    50% reduction to fire or cold from fire shield scrolls.
    prot from elements - scrolls available on vendor.

    Yes you are sacrificing a few gear slots, and a twist slot - but this is stuff you do anyway to make your character more powerful - and being more powerful isnt always 'MORE DPS!!!" - it also means survivability. People build for dodge and PRR all the time - this new endgame means building for mitigating elemental spell/breath damage.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  11. #51
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singular View Post
    It's not a player problem - it's the response of players to the content.

    Unless, if by 'player problem,' you mean 'can't survive the encounter, despite being fully geared out in every possible way, without evasion.'
    That's odd, I don't have evasion and survive that encounter just fine.

    But hey, if people want to build or re-build characters just for one or two MOBs in end-game content, go for it. Pick that low hanging fruit, be another lemming, a lowest common denominator.

    Maybe shy away from FOTM Builds and instead build a well rounded character? I know, odd thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
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  12. #52
    Community Member Grimlock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Evasion is not the only way to mitigate AOE spell damage. I play an 18/1/1 bard on most servers and have been able to deal with higher amounts of damage by preparing for it. The one major weakness of that build is reflex save that says /fail in the column instead of having a number.

    50 points of resist from gear
    50% reduction from a twist on acid
    ~33% electrical reduction from ring of djinn
    50% reduction to fire or cold from fire shield scrolls.
    prot from elements - scrolls available on vendor.

    Yes you are sacrificing a few gear slots, and a twist slot - but this is stuff you do anyway to make your character more powerful - and being more powerful isnt always 'MORE DPS!!!" - it also means survivability. People build for dodge and PRR all the time - this new endgame means building for mitigating elemental spell/breath damage.
    Chai, all of these are good suggestions, but as I am moving my pure 20 cleric into epic content I am being pushed to the limits on more than just elemental resistance. Bear traps, pressure plates, and other sources of damage aside from elements is starting to take its toll. My concern is that despite being "quick" with the heals on myself and others it will not matter once I move in to EH and EE quests. I realize that twisting Energy Sheath, and taking a close look at gear may help mitigate some of the energy damage, but other traps, spell wards, etc. could be an issue for me. On Grimmlock's 12 ftr/6 monk/2 pally it is not an issue even on some EE content he can just move through traps or evade without issue.

    I really feel as if a capstone, or level 28 Epic Feat for evasion is not game breaking - or even a martial/fighter temporary enhancement.
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  13. #53
    Community Member shadowowl's Avatar
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    evasion is required because most groups zerg through traps without a trapper.. if you have a proper trapper in group evasion is not required for the actual quest though the optional boss the mirror thing spams lightning so without evasion you are pretty much dead but no reason you can't just keep your distance or let those with evasion fight it. to me this is no different then say the end fight in ETK though except it's optional and not even required to complete the quest.
    but if you want to run it without evasion just make sure you have a trapper.

  14. #54
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimlock View Post
    Chai, all of these are good suggestions, but as I am moving my pure 20 cleric into epic content I am being pushed to the limits on more than just elemental resistance. Bear traps, pressure plates, and other sources of damage aside from elements is starting to take its toll. My concern is that despite being "quick" with the heals on myself and others it will not matter once I move in to EH and EE quests. I realize that twisting Energy Sheath, and taking a close look at gear may help mitigate some of the energy damage, but other traps, spell wards, etc. could be an issue for me. On Grimmlock's 12 ftr/6 monk/2 pally it is not an issue even on some EE content he can just move through traps or evade without issue.

    I really feel as if a capstone, or level 28 Epic Feat for evasion is not game breaking - or even a martial/fighter temporary enhancement.
    Then others need to gear up for what they are encountering as well. If they dont they are costing you unnecessary mana.

    Getting hit by traps sucks, but the solution for that is the same we have practiced since we all started playing. Either bring a rogue, or metagame our way past the trap. Spell wards in particular can be dispelled as well.

    The toughest part of this people seem to be having in some of the PUGs ive run is the adapting their way out of the "run to the end of the dungeon as quickly as possible" mentality.

    There are 2 options for evasion - one is in the last core of shadowdancer, and the other is in a high tier in primal avatar. Keep in mind that its not simply evasion that is causing people to take zero aoe spell damage, its building for a good reflex save. Evasion with a poor save only mitigates 5% of the time. A good reflex save with no evasion is better than a bad reflex save with evasion. Taking half damage most of the time (and considerably less with the gear i mentioned in the previous response) beats taking full damage 95% of the time. Your cleric would have to build for a good reflex save for evasion to be effective. Its likely easier for a pure cleric to go the gear route.
    Last edited by Chai; 03-20-2014 at 09:41 AM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  15. #55
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Either bring a rogue, or metagame our way past the trap.
    You mean by bringing a single player with a practically no fail Reflex save and a few dozen Raise Dead scrolls?
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  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimlock View Post
    Hey Kid, have some respect. Vellrad has been around for a lot longer since January of this year.
    I am sorry, I didn't know that earlier joining date gave a free check for snapping at people in ugly and uncalled forms....sigh.

    On the topic of the OP, what I understood from his post (and he may correct me hear) is that he thought that in end game there is a bias FOR evasion being the most helpful defense.

    Non evading characters don't seem to be gaining much of importance, since:

    a. A lot of the saves happening seem to go in the reflexes department.

    b. AC, PRR and the rest don't seem to be reaching values high enough so that they are a viable option if you have to choose between them and evasion.

    So from what I gathered from the discussion, some people where saying that you could either:

    1. Give everyone evasion.

    2. Choosing no evasion (heavy armor) bringing DIFFERENT benefits to the table (for instance, much higher PRR).

    3. Give specialists of other saves (fortitude) similar effects to evasion (damage reduction besides physical damage).

    I would personally prefer 2. for the sake of variety and trade offs. I think it would be interesting to be able to say that you gave up on evasion because you chose another (relevant) option, rather than saying that you prefer pure characters or that you refuse to bow to green power.
    Last edited by BigErkyKid; 03-20-2014 at 10:07 AM.

  17. #57
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryiah View Post
    You mean by bringing a single player with a practically no fail Reflex save and a few dozen Raise Dead scrolls?
    Yeap, die your way past the trap.

    Take the soul train....
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  18. #58
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singular View Post
    It's not a player problem - it's the response of players to the content.

    Unless, if by 'player problem,' you mean 'can't survive the encounter, despite being fully geared out in every possible way, without evasion.'
    By "player problem", I mean, this is a problem caused by players who can't think of other solutions or means to approach the game other then to be one trick ponies.

    It's a FotM syndrome that infects the game, and if more players were not so dependent upon either "Features" or being a "One Trick Pony" then perhaps, we would not have the "scaling" issues that come about with Epic Elite to be matched against these builds.

    No amount of Mechanics can fix this, because if you buff/nerf abilities you pretty much force players to find some other broken feature to be able to trivialize that content and they will again require everyone else to also use said broken features to be competitive.

    Tell me.. How do you fix that mindset with game mechanics?

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by jskinner937 View Post
    Imp evasion is ideal, but only 9 rogue or 9 monk will get you that.
    That's not fully true. My Ranger 20 has it as well by being mainly Tempest. Rare build currently but it works very fine for me. Unless I meet prejudices about non ranged of course, but then I just laugh and am happy that I didn't learn during group play that I've got the wrong people along.

  20. #60
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    By "player problem", I mean, this is a problem caused by players who can't think of other solutions or means to approach the game other then to be one trick ponies.

    It's a FotM syndrome that infects the game, and if more players were not so dependent upon either "Features" or being a "One Trick Pony" then perhaps, we would not have the "scaling" issues that come about with Epic Elite to be matched against these builds.

    No amount of Mechanics can fix this, because if you buff/nerf abilities you pretty much force players to find some other broken feature to be able to trivialize that content and they will again require everyone else to also use said broken features to be competitive.

    Tell me.. How do you fix that mindset with game mechanics?
    The game mechanics already exist to defeat the encounters, as I outlined above. People refuse to use them due to being trained by years of encounters that AOE damage is trivial compared to physical HP damage. While it is a "players need to adapt" issue, it is in part a Turbine issue as well because they are the ones who have developed encounters where stat/damage inflation = difficulty, but they only really inflate the physical damage. Casters who take 3-4 seconds to cast a spell that does 400 damage while the same mob can swing 4 times for 300 points each in the same amount of time, are what causes players to build for dodge and PRR more than resists and elemental mitigation. Now that resists and elemental mitigation are needed, players have to build for them, which means shirking the mentality that only melee mobs are really dangerous.

    There were a very small number of encounters in this game that taught this lesson before this new endgame was created. Elite TOR was one of them, but it wasnt so much the mobs, but the environments - but the same types of mitigations for elemental damage were needed. Most people refused to learn the lesson and instead did the dragons on hard or normal and still got their scales/loot. What Turbine did here was made it so people HAVE TO learn the lesson and build for mitigating elemental damage as well as the physical, or their chance of completing the content is greatly reduced.

    Its no longer a matter of throwing on 30 point resists and calling it a day. We have to layer resists/%reduction mitigations, and protections the same way we layer PRR, ghostly, blur, and dodge. Those not willing to will be a heavier burden on raid healers than they should be, and take more damage than they need to in quests, simply by refusing to adapt to change.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

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