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  1. #1
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    Default "Evasion Required" for new Content

    Post prompted somewhat by seeing an LFM for Haunted Halls that read "Evasion Required, BYOH".

    Required may be a bit strong but it's hard to argue that having evasion is a significant advantage in the new content. I would guess that future content will be along the same lines so would like to discuss some ideas on how to not need 2monk, 2rouge, or 9ranger on every build that wants to do level 28 and higher content.

    My general goals and objectives-of the post:
    - Give non evasion builds a meaningful way to mitigate elemental damage
    - Should not negatively impact any current build
    - Should be easy to implement in the existing game framework
    - Should be available to any build with a reasonable investment

    Suggestion 1: Make evasion available to all builds.
    Make it a selectable feat - something like "Epic Evasion". It could be a general or Epic feat with a requirement of level 26 so that it did not affect existing lower level content, or it could be made an Epic Destiny Feat that requires two capped Martial sphere destinies and level 28 if there was a need to really restrict it. Either way, it would require a feat selection and not be selectable until you reach content where it really gimps a build that does not have it.

    Suggestion 2: Reduce the need to have evasion.
    The easiest way I see to remove the requirement for evasion is to offer some other meaningful way to mitigate elemental damage and the easiest way to do this is remove the requirement to be actively blocking from the energy absorption methods that currently require it (Shield Deflection, US Block Energy, Divine PL Feat Block Energy.) Requiring blocking makes these highly situational and mostly useless. It is not often that you can just block, or see a tell and hope you can react quick enough to overcome lag and block in time. Removing the current actively blocking requirement and making these always on would actually make them useful and worth an investment. While this would help the general survivability of a build, it would not help much with specific encounters like Miior in HH that specifically favor evasion. This would be a much better option for builds that utilize medium/heavy armor and would help reduce some of the downside of using heavier armor.

    I see multiple ways to remove the active blocking requirement:
    (suggesting to implement one or a variant of one - not all at the same time - listed in my order of preference)

    2a: Simply remove it - easiest and most flexible. Only downside is possible balance issues but I don't see it as a big problem. When you consider that evasion is a free feat and can be built to near 0 damage 95-100% of the time, I don't think giving a build a constant 40% max chance at 0 damage from Shield Deflection or 30% absorption (52% absorption if both US Block Energy, Divine PL Feat Block Energy are maxed, active and stack) is out of line considering that all in they can't provide the same defense that evasion does and require Feat/Fate/Past Life Stance investment.

    2b: Have a defensive stance requirement. For example you could require any Defensive Stance (Defensive Fighting, Combat Expertise, Stalwart Defense, or Sacred Defense) be active to have the abilities always on. If the stance requirement was not met they function as they do now. This would impose the penalties of the stance for the gain of always on absorption and allow for more general situational use. Could still be available to any build wanting to invest in it and keeps the theme of trading offensive for defense without going to the extreme of near 0 offensive that blocking requires.

    2c: Modify the existing Shield Deflection Feat to something like:
    "While holding a Shield you are proficient with, you gain a Competence bonus based on the type of shield to completly ignore Acid, Cold, Electic and Fire damage. (Buckler: 20%, Small Shield: 25%, Large Shield 30%, Tower Shield: 40% ). Additionally, any energy absorption ability that requires actively blocking is active and does not require blocking as long as any shield is held." Note that this would require a shield be held so may significantly impact the capabilities of some builds when it was "Switched on" by holding a shield.

  2. #2
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    I'll admit that I've thought before that it would be really nice to have a feat that allowed you to keep evasion with medium armor.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wongar View Post
    I see multiple ways to remove the active blocking requirement:
    (suggesting to implement one or a variant of one - not all at the same time - listed in my order of preference)
    New capstone effect for defenders. (of both varieties)

    When attacked:
    On a successful fortitude save you gain all the benefits of actively blocking.

    Now we have some reason to go pure again.

  4. #4
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    If toons in armor (medium/heavy) were as good at avoiding physical damage as evasion toons are at avoiding traps/spell damage, I think that would be a good start. At that point, each of the two would at least serve a purpose, even if they aren't both ideal for the same sort of encounters.

    I don't necessarily want heavy armor wearers to be great at avoiding spells, but they should at least be better than light/no armor wearers at avoiding straight up melee attacks to the face whether that's by negating the attack completely or reducing the damage a meaningful amount.
    Last edited by redspecter23; 03-19-2014 at 05:15 PM.
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  5. #5
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    Default No TY to Evasion

    Quote Originally Posted by Wongar View Post
    Post prompted somewhat by seeing an LFM for Haunted Halls that read "Evasion Required, BYOH".

    Required may be a bit strong but it's hard to argue that having evasion is a significant advantage in the new content. I would guess that future content will be along the same lines so would like to discuss some ideas on how to not need 2monk, 2rouge, or 9ranger on every build that wants to do level 28 and higher content.

    My general goals and objectives-of the post:
    - Give non evasion builds a meaningful way to mitigate elemental damage
    - Should not negatively impact any current build
    - Should be easy to implement in the existing game framework
    - Should be available to any build with a reasonable investment

    Suggestion 1: Make evasion available to all builds.
    Make it a selectable feat - something like "Epic Evasion". It could be a general or Epic feat with a requirement of level 26 so that it did not affect existing lower level content, or it could be made an Epic Destiny Feat that requires two capped Martial sphere destinies and level 28 if there was a need to really restrict it. Either way, it would require a feat selection and not be selectable until you reach content where it really gimps a build that does not have it.

    Suggestion 2: Reduce the need to have evasion.
    The easiest way I see to remove the requirement for evasion is to offer some other meaningful way to mitigate elemental damage and the easiest way to do this is remove the requirement to be actively blocking from the energy absorption methods that currently require it (Shield Deflection, US Block Energy, Divine PL Feat Block Energy.) Requiring blocking makes these highly situational and mostly useless. It is not often that you can just block, or see a tell and hope you can react quick enough to overcome lag and block in time. Removing the current actively blocking requirement and making these always on would actually make them useful and worth an investment. While this would help the general survivability of a build, it would not help much with specific encounters like Miior in HH that specifically favor evasion. This would be a much better option for builds that utilize medium/heavy armor and would help reduce some of the downside of using heavier armor.

    I see multiple ways to remove the active blocking requirement:
    (suggesting to implement one or a variant of one - not all at the same time - listed in my order of preference)

    2a: Simply remove it - easiest and most flexible. Only downside is possible balance issues but I don't see it as a big problem. When you consider that evasion is a free feat and can be built to near 0 damage 95-100% of the time, I don't think giving a build a constant 40% max chance at 0 damage from Shield Deflection or 30% absorption (52% absorption if both US Block Energy, Divine PL Feat Block Energy are maxed, active and stack) is out of line considering that all in they can't provide the same defense that evasion does and require Feat/Fate/Past Life Stance investment.

    2b: Have a defensive stance requirement. For example you could require any Defensive Stance (Defensive Fighting, Combat Expertise, Stalwart Defense, or Sacred Defense) be active to have the abilities always on. If the stance requirement was not met they function as they do now. This would impose the penalties of the stance for the gain of always on absorption and allow for more general situational use. Could still be available to any build wanting to invest in it and keeps the theme of trading offensive for defense without going to the extreme of near 0 offensive that blocking requires.

    2c: Modify the existing Shield Deflection Feat to something like:
    "While holding a Shield you are proficient with, you gain a Competence bonus based on the type of shield to completly ignore Acid, Cold, Electic and Fire damage. (Buckler: 20%, Small Shield: 25%, Large Shield 30%, Tower Shield: 40% ). Additionally, any energy absorption ability that requires actively blocking is active and does not require blocking as long as any shield is held." Note that this would require a shield be held so may significantly impact the capabilities of some builds when it was "Switched on" by holding a shield.
    I ran Haunted Halls the other night when I got back to L24 on a pure arty. No evasion and no problem. My only regret was forgetting my Ghost Touch (aka Ghostbane) weapon.

    I will hit L25 and try the rest of the new content soon. In my opinion evasion is a crutch. I may change my tune after I hit L25 and get to try the rest of the new content.

  6. #6
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    Just splash a monk like everyone else does and quit whining!



    I was in there on my pure druid (as in no monk levels) and didn't have too many problems. I did die a couple times that maybe could have been avoided with evasion, but they also could have been avoided by being smart. I was in a group that insisted on zerging even though no one knew what they were doing.

  7. #7
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    I agree. Right now, armor is mostly something that under-geared low level characters use until their build and gear-set outgrow it and it becomes a handicap. Basically a little "baked in" AC/PRR that soon gets in the way of feats, enhancements and magical items due to restrictions, dodge caps, armor check penalty and even arcane spell failure when UMDing scrolls.

  8. #8

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    I haven't had a chance yet to venture into the Haunted Halls, but I like the thought of being able to take evasion in some form later on as a free feat or some other ability to help deal with large amount of damage from traps. But have to remember that the ultimate goal is to run these groups with other players, hopefully some that can disable those traps if they can be disabled.

  9. #9
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    One significant problem is not necessarily that the reflex save is so advantageous in DDO content, but rather that fortitude and will saves are not nearly as essential. D&D balances all three saves equally and makes classes good at one save or another in order to balance the classes. Spells like protection from evil, freedom of movement and death ward are easy to come by and block many of the negative effects that having a low fortitude or will save will lead to.

    A proposal is to either add spells or effects to the game that these effects do not block after all we are in the epic levels. Another problem is that the duration on spells is a different mechanic in D&D when compared to DDO. A minute per level in D&D is not nearly as big a thing as a minute in DDO. Players often adventure during an entire day in D&D (16 hours not counting rest). A minute per level in 16 hour periods is a drop in the bucket.
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  10. #10
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    Default Traps

    Quote Originally Posted by Erdrique View Post
    I haven't had a chance yet to venture into the Haunted Halls, but I like the thought of being able to take evasion in some form later on as a free feat or some other ability to help deal with large amount of damage from traps. But have to remember that the ultimate goal is to run these groups with other players, hopefully some that can disable those traps if they can be disabled.
    The traps were not that bad. The only trap gear I used was the Heroic Gloves of Forgotten Craft. If you want to test your evasion and/or trap skills in there, go right at the entrance thru the secret door at the beginning. The trap boxes will be on the other side of the stairs if you want to do a quick spot test just inside the dungeon.

    I was under level at 24 and I had to use the Skill Boost from the Human Enhancement Tree to search out 2 of the secret doors, but did not need for traps.

  11. #11
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    The person putting up that LFM needed Evasion... so he thought everyone else did too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  12. #12
    Community Member Feithlin's Avatar
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    I have an innocent question (I haven't done the new raids yet so I really have no idea about the answer): Isn't absorption enough to deal with spell damage? You can cumulate a lot of absorption today: 33% craft or some items like ring of djinn or firestorm greaves (fire/elec), armors (up to 20% for random gen, ant type), prismatic cloak (up to 30% iirc), which -- iirc -- are all cumulative if the % are different. You can also twist Elemental Absorption (15%, shiradi tier 4) and Energy sheath (50%, one type, draconic tier 1) or can scroll fire shield (cold/fire).

    So are these items not enough? Or are people expecting to resist without evasion and without using them?
    Thelanis: Nassim* (F12/P6/M2) - Talienor** (P18/Ra2) - Feithlin** (F12/Bd7/C1) - Stoneoak* (F12/M6/P2) - Hokusai (M17/F2/C1) - Ardence* (Bd15/F3/Ro2) - Matsushiro* (Ro11/M6/P3) | Argonessen: Luneargent (W18/Ro2) - Talienor (Ro20) - Takshir (Bd16/F2/Ro2) - Hiacynthe (C20) | Ghallanda: A bunch of pre DDO Unlimited characters (field of testing for post U19 )

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feithlin View Post
    I have an innocent question (I haven't done the new raids yet so I really have no idea about the answer): Isn't absorption enough to deal with spell damage? You can cumulate a lot of absorption today: 33% craft or some items like ring of djinn or firestorm greaves (fire/elec), armors (up to 20% for random gen, ant type), prismatic cloak (up to 30% iirc), which -- iirc -- are all cumulative if the % are different. You can also twist Elemental Absorption (15%, shiradi tier 4) and Energy sheath (50%, one type, draconic tier 1) or can scroll fire shield (cold/fire).

    So are these items not enough? Or are people expecting to resist without evasion and without using them?
    except energy sheath doesn't stack with fire/cold. Not to mention the damage you're taking is lightning.

  14. #14
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    Give more casters horid wilting instead of otilukes and fireballs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Originally Posted by Random Person #2 View Post
    People who exploit bugs in code are cheaters cheaters cheaters. And they are big fat ****yheads too.

  15. #15
    Community Member Feithlin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkonas View Post
    except energy sheath doesn't stack with fire/cold. Not to mention the damage you're taking is lightning.
    Which is why I put 'or'.
    Lightning, you can get 33% from craft/ring, 50% from sheath, 20% from armor and 30% from cloak.

    *Edit: If they all stack (I think they do), instead of 1,000 damage for example, you would take 188.
    Last edited by Feithlin; 03-19-2014 at 06:38 PM.
    Thelanis: Nassim* (F12/P6/M2) - Talienor** (P18/Ra2) - Feithlin** (F12/Bd7/C1) - Stoneoak* (F12/M6/P2) - Hokusai (M17/F2/C1) - Ardence* (Bd15/F3/Ro2) - Matsushiro* (Ro11/M6/P3) | Argonessen: Luneargent (W18/Ro2) - Talienor (Ro20) - Takshir (Bd16/F2/Ro2) - Hiacynthe (C20) | Ghallanda: A bunch of pre DDO Unlimited characters (field of testing for post U19 )

  16. #16
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    The true balance of Reflex w/evasion is Will and Fortitude spells/effects. Casters should always have more than one option even NPC casters.

  17. #17
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    Give more casters horid wilting instead of otilukes and fireballs.
    More mob casters should be using combos like Power Word Stun or hold monster followed up by a huge damage spell. Players shouldn't be able to use evasion if helpless. In the case of hold/damage spell you're forcing two consecutive saves, increasing the chance that one would be failed.

    I'd like to see a bit less of the no save breath type type effects and more combination attacks forcing us to guard in multiple areas instead of taking it to the face and hjealing all the time. Have a mob cast curse, if it sticks, then greater command, hold, crushing despair, disjunction, sleet storm, then /laugh at the player. While the mob is under the effect of /laugh, it gives an ally a good opening to go smack him to break some of the cc. Also while we're at it, I think Turbine needs to unnerf the duration that we are under the effect of crowd control. Even if they land it on us, we auto save a few seconds later. Make the duration longer, but add more effects and abilities to allow us to break occasionally it if we're in a really tight spot.
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  18. #18
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    Didn't necessarily want this to be about evasion in HH, but it is a good example.

    I have run it with both Evasion and non-Evasion melee builds. Neither had any problems with the basic quest. I did however notice a significant difference with the Miior and Dragon fights.

    Miior was very manageable to melle and tank with an Evasion build - no real problems. My heavy armor build went down before even getting started - and all the energy absorption I could muster was not close to enough. Had ring, cloak, energy sheath, 2 Divine past lifes, US Block Energy - went in on Normal to see how it would work. Grabbed her argo, started blocking, stacks exploded to 45 in a few seconds and I was dead. Don't know what made the stacks go up so fast - was not attacking but there is no way I could even get away from her. Tried the same thing on my evasion tank, no absorbing items, and had no problems with her as I watched a constant stream of evades scroll across the screen. Basically this is a ranged or an evasion required encounter for me right now.

  19. #19
    Community Member smckelv's Avatar
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    Some TL;DR but after my first run on normal HH on a melee sans evasion I found 2 mini boss fights that had some kind of statue lightning effect. 2 failed saves in a row was enough that even my human FVS healer could not keep up. Maybe there is a mechanic (like disabling traps) or something. Even the +100 elec resist boots I found on the floor in Halls didn't help a bit.

    The other 2 evasion melees had zero issues. The WF Wizzy also hd zero trouble. Just me the fleshy fighter and FVS couldn't hack the statue lightning.
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  20. #20
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    It's stupid that evasion is the only real way to mitigate spell damage in the entire game, and it's only available to unarmored or low armored toons.

    We need something for heavy armor wearers. How about introducing higher elemental absorption items on heavy armor? Maybe put it in an augment form and make it not stack with evasion?

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