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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryiah View Post
    Because there is absolutely nothing overpowered about the concept of a Bard with two levels of Paladin and two levels of Monk.
    But it's perfectly fine for a Sorc that can cast a 25 mana (with max/empowered/quicken on it) 800hp reconstruct? And has much better DPS?

    The problem with buff threads is there's inevitably someone who doesn't want the class to be able to access the same things most other classes can access..

    So when someone says give Barbarians Evasion at 2, someone else says "no way that would be OP" only it wouldn't at all it would just help Barb's be less mana sponges for healers and more durable. It would put Barbarians as LITTLE closer to Fighters and Monks, and Fighters+Monks. It would give Bard's (with a D) access to a 2 level evasion splash besides Rogue that actually has synergy with Warchanter (such as it is, it's an awful weak tree frankly).

    Likewise removing Bard's unnecessary and highly arbitrary alignment restriction would allow it to be less weak... Not OP, not even "almost as good as other classes" just less weak. Because it would open up some of the options that other classes enjoy freely.

    Now you will of course defend your stance that Only Bard's shouldn't have such great synergies with other classes (simply because someone at TSR, before WotC once decided that music is chaotic and Bard's are rogish archetypes, and for no better reason that that) as though everything I said isn't 100% true and you paid it no attention whatsoever... Because when someone entrenches themselves into a position it doesn't matter whats actually right... Bard's would be over powered if they could multiclass with Pali and Monk, and it doesn't matter that a Bladeforged Sorc can already do this and do it better. It only matters that you are going to defend what you said, the rest of the realities within the game be damned LOL
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  2. #62
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    I guess the best way to improve bards in-game would be to copy a feature from Lotro. Have bards playing "virtual music instruments" while playing DDO. By deciding which song and at which tempo (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempo) it is played the bard will most probably influence the speed of the party while questing. Since he/she is doing it in-game it will be useful to synchronize the overall pace of the party.

    Imagine if you should have 2 bards in your group. One does the percussions and the other some vocals. Or 3 bards. Or a band.
    Last edited by deuxanes; 03-19-2014 at 02:27 PM.

  3. #63
    2015 DDO Players Council Seikojin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Not in this game, where most other classes can have the same splash.

    One of the reasons bards are underpowered is because of not being able to take levels in those 2 other classes. If you look at the other melee/ranged like fighter, ranger, paladin, artificer, rogue - they become alot more powerful with monk levels.
    Bolded the truth. Unfortunately, IIRC that is working as written to the phb.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    So lawful good assassins are cool, lawful good necromancers are cool, but lawful good bards arent?

    If a game is going to have an alignment based stance on min maxing, how about some consistency?

    Or better yet, remove alignment restriction from paladin. Its not like the lawful good dieties are the only ones who can have holy warriors representing them in the lands of mortals....
    And you think X/2/2 of pal monk splashing was op? If the planner let you build it, barb pallis would be pretty insane. Or palli druids

    Quote Originally Posted by Brendael View Post
    It sucks that the answer to everything is 2 Monk/2 Paladin. Capstones really should be good enough to make pure builds as viable at end game as these.
    What changes would you think would make a capstone worth it, but not make it soo op, that cross classing would still be a viable option? I think Capstones should boost enhancements in that tree on top of what they already do. This way it would boost your playstyle specifically rather than being weak in generalness.

    If the capstone was left as they are, it would be nice if the capstone wasn't class 20, instead being tier 5 restricted. This way you can get the capstone at 5 or 6 levels in that class, or say 8 levels in the class (definitely making it the main). It wouldn't be soo much a pure class thing, which would then make pures completely useless.

    To really make pures viable, there needs to be a look at all combinations of multiclassing and seeing what the capstones need to fulfill; then build them out from there.

  4. #64
    Community Member Noctus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadCookieQueen View Post
    ^^ this!


    Unrelated note but it'll stop me from multiple postings: I'm a chick...please use the correct pronoun.




    Just had to post this.


    Erzskalde (Warchanter) / Erzmarschall (melee FvS) / Erzsoldat (waiting for TR-time) / Erzschmied (ranged Artificer)

    AOK - From Argonnessen

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Because when someone entrenches themselves into a position it doesn't matter whats actually right...
    Nice to see you entrench yourself into the idea that anyone claiming something is overpowered automatically doesn't want it. One of my main characters, and currently my only completionist, is a Bard. I would love to see her gain a massive boost to saves. But at the same time I'm annoyed that Turbine has made it into something that is expected in order to take advantage of Evasion.
    Last edited by Ryiah; 03-19-2014 at 05:21 PM.
    Ryiah | Raeyah | Reikara
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  6. #66
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    Hey, thanks for all the replys and for the interesting debate! Didn’t realise the angst that bards can cause...

    Quote Originally Posted by MadCookieQueen View Post


    Could you post your build and gear list, it would help us find out where things could be improved.

    To answer the question about my build, its actually 18 bard 1 fighter 1 fvs 8 epic (so not pure). Fighter is for extra feat so I could get to overwhelming crit with all 2HF feats and FVS for divine might for that extra STR boost essentially.

    I’m on a different computer atm so don’t have full details but from the things I remember buffed stats at level 28 are around STR 66 (with divine might on) INT 11 (?) WIS 14 DEX 26 CON 28 CH 32 with a full set of +3 tomes (thanks to the anniversary cards and one +3 -> +4 dex tome found in caught in the web I think). My hit points sit around 700ish with songs / rage / etc. I am human and have a couple of tiers for healing amp, haste boost and damage boost.

    Gear is basically all +8-+10 stat gear / deadly / accuracy found on runs or bought from AH although I also use the following named items: treads of falling snow, ethereal gloves (I think they are called that – the ones from the demon at end of eveningstar chain – they also have +2 profane str boost), shaman totem (for healing amp boost) and nightsingers cloak (+15 to perform) (I sometimes swap into jewelled cloak for spell absorption e.g. against beholders and that new emissary). I also slot +8 resistance for saves and +16 PRR. My armor is basic +6 celestial chain with deathblock although the aim is to replace this with either flawless dragon stuff (not sure if black or white is better for me but I’m two CoHs away from either anyway).

    My saves I think are all around 35ish (?) which I feel is pretty low but seems no real way to boost them much higher. My AC is trash (particularly with rage and howl of the north on) – its basically auto hit for mobs at leveI I imagine. I do however have 50% conceal 20% displace and 14% dodge. My PRR sits around 40ish I think (only negating about 20% of damage). I have no real DR to speak off.

    My enhancements are all DPS focussed and I run in legendary dreadnaught with x7 crit multiplier on a greataxe. I also have masters blitz but I don’t think I’ve really got the hang of using it yet. My BAB is 28 from warchanter victory song so even though I run always in improved power attack and howl of the north hitting things never seems to be a problem. Damage on a normal hit is around 100ish and crits (19-20) seem to go off between about 700 – 1200. I have limited fate points so I’ve twisted in only a couple of abilities from the lower tiers of fatesinger (including one giving +6 to perform).

    I can cast CSW for about 120ish to heal and can also throw mass CMW in a group, I have Ottos slotted although I probably don’t use it enough, and all my other spells are really just buffs (including some good ones like FOM). I carry around greater restoration, spell resistance and resurrection scrolls and my UMD is maxxed out so can pretty much scroll anything.

    I feel the main weaknesses of the character are the defensive elements, in particular lack of evasion and low saves (reflex in particular is a major problem). Hey, you guys might be on to something allowing splashing monk and paladin!

    700 hit points also seems to be too low with the minimal defences I have. It also seems my song buffs are quite useless for other party members (even +2 to all stats probably doesn’t really do much) and take a long time to play so no one sticks around for them! I have I think 28 songs per rest and have maxxed out their duration so inspire lasts around 8-9 minutes.

    I feel I’ve got the most I can out of this particular build other than opening up additional fate slots and twisting in some more useful abilities or finding/buying much improved gear. I’m sure though given its my first ever character that there are obvious improvements....

  7. #67
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Senowl View Post
    ...Spellsinger tree supposedly allows bards to fascinate undead.
    This latest update is making it really painful to see fascinate undead not working properly. I hope it gets fixed soon.

    As for boosting Warchanter, change the +1 multiplier on a 19 or 20 into a +1 (non-competence bonus so it stacks with other sources) crit expander (+2 in practice with keen is how those work atm), and I'll roll a Warchanter in a heartbeat. A simple change like that is really all it would take for me.

  8. #68
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Senowl View Post
    Hi all, I’m a new player just ticking into my second month of playtime.

    1. Will a perform of 80 be around enough to hit undead mobs in Thunderholme (assuming the song is fixed in the next patch)?

    2. Would this be of any use in a party, or probably only just solo?

    3. Is there any potential for song to be useful in the actual raid content, particularly given the masses of undead. Is there any need for CC that a bard could fill? (I admit I’ve only done the raid once - there was no CC there and I spent the whole time unable to move through crippling lag and multiple deaths)

    4. Any feel for when the patch will come up (and whats the odds on it actually being fixed)?

    Basically Im trying to decide whether I should hang on a few more weeks with this character, run some more epic content, or maybe just bite the bullet and work out what this whole TR thing is about with some other (non bard but likely still gimp) second life build?
    Welcome to DDO, hope your stay is fun!

    1. 80 is not bad, but I suggest taking it as high as you can for many reasons.

    2. Yes, it can be very useful. The HARDEST part about playing a Bard is finding 5/11 others that will let you shine - playing your songs.

    3. Yes the is potential, but again, you need players in your group that will let you do your job and understand the finer points of mezzing and waking them up or not. The Bard has THE BEST CC available via Song. No other class in DDO can reach the DC a Bard can via his/her Song.

    4. Your guess on when the next patch will launch is as good as anyone's.


    Stick with your Bard. Play and gear him/her up.

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
    Adventurer, Bug Reporter, Mournlander.

  9. #69
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    Default What Grinds My Gears

    What grinds my gears.

    I've been playing a (pure) Bard since 2008 Mostly Spellsinger since it's my playstyle. I've just about had it. There is so many problems with Bards in general it isn't even funny.
    All songs need to be overhauled. A good start would be to make ALL songs give a "Song" bonus instead of Morale,competence,enhancement, etc.
    NOTHING should ever conflict with a Bard song. It should be purely unique in every way. It's what the class is all about.IMO
    The new update switched around some songs so they don't share the same timers...big deal. nobody waits for the songs anyways, because it takes too long to sing 12+ songs.
    By the second song the group is jumping around like they have ADHD and if haste isn't cast immediately afterwards they'll just leave anyways.
    Each song should be instant cast and have the same global cooldown mechanics like a spell does. Each song should make a couple of notes in differing tones.
    (That way you could make your own "music" by casting your songs in different orders.) Every single Bard song is dysfunctional in my opinion.
    They need to be changed to make the group WANT to stay around for them.

    Inspire Courage:
    Gives a +1 morale bonus to attack rolls, damage rolls, and saving throws versus fear.
    At Bard level 8, this song automatically becomes Improved Inspire Courage and these bonuses rise to +2.
    At Bard level 14 they rise to +3, and at Bard level 20 they rise to +4.
    It is a Morale Bonus, so the spell you can get at level 7 "Good Hope" is better than your song in every way until you hit level 14 and then you get a +3 to damge from your song.
    Too bad Greater heroism that you can get at level 13 (or level 6 if you go warchanter) is better than your song up until 20 then it just becomes the same for purposes of attack.
    The ONLY thing you gain from this bard song at level 20 if you have the spells Good Hope and Greater Heroism on is +2 damage.(unmodified)
    This needs to be changed to a SONG bonus and the damage and attack needs to be a percentile based scaling statistic.

    Inspire Competence:
    gives a +2 to all skills. It's junk. +2 means nothing in the grand scheme of things at level 28 with 60-80 skills.
    Out of the thousand or so times I have used this song on others it has only made the difference in a rogue finding a trap maybe 10 or less times. Mostly at lower levels
    where skills are not as high so this would be more of a benefit.This song needs reworked to something new, or change the skill boost to a percentile based scale.(+10% boost to all skills possibly)

    Suggestion Song:
    This song charms a single foe that is currently under the effects of the bardic Fascinate song.
    It uses the same DC as the suggestion spell. What's the point?
    When I want to charm something, 100% of the time I will just cast suggestion because it's instant cast with the general spell global cooldown.
    (and mobs do not need to be fascinated to do so) This song should be instant cast with only a global cooldown. It should have the baseline DC as the spell equivalent,
    then the DC should be increased by +1 for every 15 points of the perform skill.

    Mass Suggestion Song: See above.


    Inspire Heroics:
    gives a +4 to all saves and a 4% dodge bonus. Again a morale bonus so it wont stack with Greater Heroism or even song of heroism.
    All it gives is a 4% dodge bonus, but if you are capped on dodge, you don't get anything. Bard songs should stack on top of everything. period.
    It should increase dodge by 5% and raise your maximum dodge by 5% and change it to a SONG bonus.


    Enthrallment:
    Enthralled enemies stop what they're doing and have a chance of breaking free when damaged.
    Enthralled enemies suffer a -2 penalty to attack rolls and Will saves. I NEVER use it. There is no point.
    The Haunting melody enhancement (tier 1 of the spellsinger enhancements)gives fascinate -2 on all Saving Throws, Skill checks and attack rolls. for one enhancement point.
    so let me see here.....we have to spend a minimum of 12 enhancement ponts in a tier 3 enhancement tree just to get -2 to will saves and -2 to attack rolls,
    or spend one point in a tier 1 enhancement tree to get -2 to ALL saves AND skill checks AND attack? gee.....tough choice.
    The problem is we are pigeonholed into taking enthrallment to get sustaining song. This song needs to be reworked and changed to something useful.
    Change it to the spellsinger equivalent of Inspire Recklessness. Grant a +(3/6/10)% SONG bonus to spell critical chance.

    Song of Arcane Might:
    Grant a +1 morale bonus to caster level for spells. yet again a morale bonus, so any weapon that increases caster level will cancel this song out.
    for some reason all weapons are considered morale bonuses.IE. the Twilight staff from CiTW gives a +2 to spell level so it overrides this song.
    Any caster with Twilight or a similar weapon will get ZERO effect. (I have a Twilight for testing purposes)
    Change this to a SONG bonus.


    Spellsong Trance:
    Grant a +1 morale bonus to spell DC's and 10% morale discount on spell point costs.
    Again a Morale bonus so if you or anyone in your group gets a ship buff from the house P entertainer
    or the Scholar you don't get any benefit from the Song except for the 10% SP discount.The SP Discount should be 15% and change it to a SONG bonus.


    Sustaining song:
    Apply a temporary fast-healing effect to all nearby allies. Guess what? it's STILL only single Target even though it is supposed to be an area of effect. (7 bug reports and nothing)
    This song should have the chance for its healing ticks to crit AND increase its healing by the amount of perform skill you have.
    IE. for every 10 points of your total perform skill, you heal for an extra 1 point of HP type thing.


    Song of Capering:
    It's the same as the Otto's Resistable dance. It's pointless and I would rather use the spell Otto's Irresistable Dance over this song because the Save is better and it simply takes too long to cast.
    This song should should act like Otto's Sphere of Dancing. It and ALL Crowd Control bard songs should have a baseline DC of whatever the spell equivalent would be
    and then increase the DC by one point for every 20 points of your total perform skill type thing. Example: If I had a DC of 40 for song of Capering and 88 perform skill then my new DC would be 44.


    Spellsong Vigor:
    Apply an effect to one target that restores spell points over time. +2 SP every two seconds. It's just not enough. Peeps have 3.5-4k+ SP now.
    for starters this song and ALL divine vitalities and Mnemonic potions should have the chance to crit.
    This song should be +2 SP and +1 SP for every 20 points of your total perform skill type thing WITH the chance to crit each tick.

    Song of Freedom:
    This ability is equivalent to the Break Enchantment spell on one ally. Pointless.
    If I HAD to use break enchantment, then I would just use the spell. It is area of effect and casts fast.
    This song needs to be reworked or changed to something useful.

    Frolic:
    When you sing a Song of Freedom on an ally, they gain a Freedom of Movement for three minutes. Pointless.
    I'd rather just give someone Freedom of Movement spell and not worry about it for 40 minutes.
    I do not get this enhancement nor will I ever get this enhancement.It's unnecessary. This song needs to be reworked or changed to something useful.

    Boast:
    Sing a Song to gain (10/20/30) Temporary HP. While these HP last, you generate +50% Bardic Music bonus to Threat and gain +1[W] to Damage.
    Wow, so I can has +1[W] damage until I get hit once.This song should last until the duration expires, not until the temporary HP wears off. It's a joke.

    Ironskin Chant:
    This song grants 2/4/6 bardic music bonus to Damage Reduction to the singer and all nearby allies.
    This song should be modified to give 3/6/10 SONG bonus to damage reduction and give a damage absorbtion based on 33%/66%/100% of your total points in the perform skill.(similar to the stoneskin spell)
    For example: at rank 1 with 88 perform. the song would be DR 3 with 29 dmg absorption, at rank 2 with 88 perform it would give DR 6 with 58 dmg absorption,
    third rank with 88 points in perform, the song would give DR 10 with 88 points of damage absorption.Make this be a SONG bonus.

    Inspire Recklessness:
    Expend a use of Bardic Music to grant a +(2/4/6)% morale bonus to double strike chance and -10% fortification to all nearby allies for 3 minutes.
    The -10% fortification is unnecessary.AGAIN a morale bonus so it doesn't stack with any weapons. Any weapon with 6% or greater doublestrike makes this song useless. Make it a +(4/8/12)% SONG bonus.

    Song of Heroism:
    +4 Morale bonus to Attack, all saving throws, and skill checks, as well as immunity to fear, and some temporary hitpoints.
    You guessed it, a morale bonus again. This song is no different than the spell. The fear immunity for this song as well as the spell version has been broken and won't work.
    There is no amount of bug reports that will get the fear immunity fixed. Change this to a SONG bonus and fix the immunity.

    CORE ABILITIES:

    Warmaster: Capstone
    When you Inspire Heroics, for 12 seconds the targeted ally gains +5 Competence bonus to Attack, +5 Competence bonus to Damage, +25 Competence bonus to Physical Resistance
    and +50 Competence bonus to resist Acid, Cold, Electric, and Fire damage. For a Capstone, 12 seconds is laughable.
    This should be a SONG bonus to start with. Give it Evasion and make it last 12 seconds plus increase the duration by 1 second for each point of the perform skill that you have.
    (duration increased by having any increase song duration enhancements or ED's)

    Victory Song:
    Toggle: Grants full Base Attack Bonus when activated. Note there is currently a bug where Victory Song will be disabled after a death, rest shrine, entering a quest or wilderness zone, or upon logging out.
    It can be worked around by simply re-toggling the ability until the next such event.Annoying, fix the dang bug.(and all bugs!!!!)It should stay on until you toggle it off..period.


    Maestro of life and death: Capstone
    +2 Charisma +10 Universal Spell Power You gain the Heal and Wail of the Banshee spells as level 6 Bard spells.
    Change +10 universal spell power to..Spell power is increased by 25% of your total perform skill.
    and you gain +1 DC to Wail of the Banshee, Heal and Reconstruct for every 20 points of your total perform skill.
    You gain Reconstruct as a spell also.


    Other songs: Epic Destinies

    Dirge:
    Deal 10d[4/6/8] Negative damage and 10d[8/10/12] Sonic damage every 3 seconds for 18 seconds (fort save for half). In addition, enemies may be slowed by 5% if they fail their fort save.
    Problem one, Dirges negative damage should HEAL palemaster wizards and their undead minions. Problem two, Dirge damage is a sad panda and it should be increased by +1 for every two points of the perform skill you have.
    Example:
    If I have 88 perform skill then Dirge would do, at third rank 10d8+44 Negative damage and 10d12+44 Sonic damage. This way, it gives non bards using Fatesinger ED or twisting Dirge using perform items a minor damage increase,
    but a bard using Fatersinger or twisting dirge a much bigger damage increase.


    This is just a tip of the iceberg for ways to improve a Bard that wont make them OP, yet fun and desirable in groups. I love my Bard and peeps I play with love my Bard
    but it is only because I am a good player and not because the class is well defined. It needs some much needed love.

  10. #70
    Community Member markymarksta's Avatar
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    Default Fascinate does work on Skelies in Thunderholm, just not for long.

    Anyway, since the update I’ve been poking around in Thunderholme trying to scrounge together enough ingots to get a greataxe upgraded to tier 2. I was there last night grinding my way through seemingly endless mobs of undead when it dawned on me that one of the enhancements I had previously passed over in the Spellsinger tree supposedly allows bards to fascinate undead. Even though I’m mainly warchanter (yeah, I know, another gimp choice), I still have a perform of around 80 which I figured should be just enough to hit mobs in the wilderness area making my life hopefully much easier down there. I was feeling quite excited as I respecced into this ability and rushed back down to Moria...um, I mean Thunderholme...to try it out.

    Anyway, long story short it appears that the undead down there just laughed at my stupid song not only saving every single time but also apparently immune as well (and here was me thinking that SR doesn’t apply to songs). I thought at first maybe they are deaf undead dwarfs but they seem to hear me all right when I try to run past them invis (not recommended really given the lag this seems to build up over time).

    I currently have a level 27 Max CHA PDK pure bard Spellsinger that uses greatswords and is cc'ed speced with max perform. I was at first annoyed when I used Fascinate on the dwarf skeletons down there in Thundeholme as I saw the term 'immune' suddenly appear above their heads when the song was finished. I quickly ranted how I hated the fact that it did not work, I was a little embaraessed when my friend in the party replied, yeah but they are all fascinated...and so they were, however they did not stay fascinated for long.

    Not saying that bards don't need some help but the way I see them now is as a support class. I have a bard so I can use the character in raids which is really where I think their worth is. As far as soloing on a bard, that sounds like too hard work.

  11. #71
    Community Member markymarksta's Avatar
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    Default Fascinate can work on Skelies in Thunderholm, just not for long.

    I currently have a level 27 Max CHA PDK pure bard Spellsinger that uses greatswords and is cc'ed speced with max perform. I was at first annoyed when I used Fascinate on the dwarf skeletons down there in Thundeholme as I saw the term 'immune' suddenly appear above their heads when the song was finished. I quickly ranted how I hated the fact that it did not work, I was a little embaraessed when my friend in the party replied, yeah but they are all fascinated...and so they were, however they did not stay fascinated for long.

    Not saying that bards don't need some help but the way I see them now is as a support class. I have a bard so I can use the character in raids which is really where I think their worth is. As far as soloing on a bard, that sounds like too hard work.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grunyun View Post
    What grinds my gears.

    I've been playing a (pure) Bard since 2008 Mostly Spellsinger since it's my playstyle. I've just about had it. There is so many problems with Bards in general it isn't even funny.
    All songs need to be overhauled. A good start would be to make ALL songs give a "Song" bonus instead of Morale,competence,enhancement, etc.
    NOTHING should ever conflict with a Bard song. It should be purely unique in every way. It's what the class is all about.IMO
    The new update switched around some songs so they don't share the same timers...big deal. nobody waits for the songs anyways, because it takes too long to sing 12+ songs.
    By the second song the group is jumping around like they have ADHD and if haste isn't cast immediately afterwards they'll just leave anyways.
    Each song should be instant cast and have the same global cooldown mechanics like a spell does. Each song should make a couple of notes in differing tones.
    (That way you could make your own "music" by casting your songs in different orders.) Every single Bard song is dysfunctional in my opinion.
    They need to be changed to make the group WANT to stay around for them.

    Inspire Courage:
    Gives a +1 morale bonus to attack rolls, damage rolls, and saving throws versus fear.
    At Bard level 8, this song automatically becomes Improved Inspire Courage and these bonuses rise to +2.
    At Bard level 14 they rise to +3, and at Bard level 20 they rise to +4.
    It is a Morale Bonus, so the spell you can get at level 7 "Good Hope" is better than your song in every way until you hit level 14 and then you get a +3 to damge from your song.
    Too bad Greater heroism that you can get at level 13 (or level 6 if you go warchanter) is better than your song up until 20 then it just becomes the same for purposes of attack.
    The ONLY thing you gain from this bard song at level 20 if you have the spells Good Hope and Greater Heroism on is +2 damage.(unmodified)
    This needs to be changed to a SONG bonus and the damage and attack needs to be a percentile based scaling statistic.

    Inspire Competence:
    gives a +2 to all skills. It's junk. +2 means nothing in the grand scheme of things at level 28 with 60-80 skills.
    Out of the thousand or so times I have used this song on others it has only made the difference in a rogue finding a trap maybe 10 or less times. Mostly at lower levels
    where skills are not as high so this would be more of a benefit.This song needs reworked to something new, or change the skill boost to a percentile based scale.(+10% boost to all skills possibly)

    Suggestion Song:
    This song charms a single foe that is currently under the effects of the bardic Fascinate song.
    It uses the same DC as the suggestion spell. What's the point?
    When I want to charm something, 100% of the time I will just cast suggestion because it's instant cast with the general spell global cooldown.
    (and mobs do not need to be fascinated to do so) This song should be instant cast with only a global cooldown. It should have the baseline DC as the spell equivalent,
    then the DC should be increased by +1 for every 15 points of the perform skill.

    Mass Suggestion Song: See above.


    Inspire Heroics:
    gives a +4 to all saves and a 4% dodge bonus. Again a morale bonus so it wont stack with Greater Heroism or even song of heroism.
    All it gives is a 4% dodge bonus, but if you are capped on dodge, you don't get anything. Bard songs should stack on top of everything. period.
    It should increase dodge by 5% and raise your maximum dodge by 5% and change it to a SONG bonus.


    Enthrallment:
    Enthralled enemies stop what they're doing and have a chance of breaking free when damaged.
    Enthralled enemies suffer a -2 penalty to attack rolls and Will saves. I NEVER use it. There is no point.
    The Haunting melody enhancement (tier 1 of the spellsinger enhancements)gives fascinate -2 on all Saving Throws, Skill checks and attack rolls. for one enhancement point.
    so let me see here.....we have to spend a minimum of 12 enhancement ponts in a tier 3 enhancement tree just to get -2 to will saves and -2 to attack rolls,
    or spend one point in a tier 1 enhancement tree to get -2 to ALL saves AND skill checks AND attack? gee.....tough choice.
    The problem is we are pigeonholed into taking enthrallment to get sustaining song. This song needs to be reworked and changed to something useful.
    Change it to the spellsinger equivalent of Inspire Recklessness. Grant a +(3/6/10)% SONG bonus to spell critical chance.

    Song of Arcane Might:
    Grant a +1 morale bonus to caster level for spells. yet again a morale bonus, so any weapon that increases caster level will cancel this song out.
    for some reason all weapons are considered morale bonuses.IE. the Twilight staff from CiTW gives a +2 to spell level so it overrides this song.
    Any caster with Twilight or a similar weapon will get ZERO effect. (I have a Twilight for testing purposes)
    Change this to a SONG bonus.


    Spellsong Trance:
    Grant a +1 morale bonus to spell DC's and 10% morale discount on spell point costs.
    Again a Morale bonus so if you or anyone in your group gets a ship buff from the house P entertainer
    or the Scholar you don't get any benefit from the Song except for the 10% SP discount.The SP Discount should be 15% and change it to a SONG bonus.


    Sustaining song:
    Apply a temporary fast-healing effect to all nearby allies. Guess what? it's STILL only single Target even though it is supposed to be an area of effect. (7 bug reports and nothing)
    This song should have the chance for its healing ticks to crit AND increase its healing by the amount of perform skill you have.
    IE. for every 10 points of your total perform skill, you heal for an extra 1 point of HP type thing.


    Song of Capering:
    It's the same as the Otto's Resistable dance. It's pointless and I would rather use the spell Otto's Irresistable Dance over this song because the Save is better and it simply takes too long to cast.
    This song should should act like Otto's Sphere of Dancing. It and ALL Crowd Control bard songs should have a baseline DC of whatever the spell equivalent would be
    and then increase the DC by one point for every 20 points of your total perform skill type thing. Example: If I had a DC of 40 for song of Capering and 88 perform skill then my new DC would be 44.


    Spellsong Vigor:
    Apply an effect to one target that restores spell points over time. +2 SP every two seconds. It's just not enough. Peeps have 3.5-4k+ SP now.
    for starters this song and ALL divine vitalities and Mnemonic potions should have the chance to crit.
    This song should be +2 SP and +1 SP for every 20 points of your total perform skill type thing WITH the chance to crit each tick.

    Song of Freedom:
    This ability is equivalent to the Break Enchantment spell on one ally. Pointless.
    If I HAD to use break enchantment, then I would just use the spell. It is area of effect and casts fast.
    This song needs to be reworked or changed to something useful.

    Frolic:
    When you sing a Song of Freedom on an ally, they gain a Freedom of Movement for three minutes. Pointless.
    I'd rather just give someone Freedom of Movement spell and not worry about it for 40 minutes.
    I do not get this enhancement nor will I ever get this enhancement.It's unnecessary. This song needs to be reworked or changed to something useful.

    Boast:
    Sing a Song to gain (10/20/30) Temporary HP. While these HP last, you generate +50% Bardic Music bonus to Threat and gain +1[W] to Damage.
    Wow, so I can has +1[W] damage until I get hit once.This song should last until the duration expires, not until the temporary HP wears off. It's a joke.

    Ironskin Chant:
    This song grants 2/4/6 bardic music bonus to Damage Reduction to the singer and all nearby allies.
    This song should be modified to give 3/6/10 SONG bonus to damage reduction and give a damage absorbtion based on 33%/66%/100% of your total points in the perform skill.(similar to the stoneskin spell)
    For example: at rank 1 with 88 perform. the song would be DR 3 with 29 dmg absorption, at rank 2 with 88 perform it would give DR 6 with 58 dmg absorption,
    third rank with 88 points in perform, the song would give DR 10 with 88 points of damage absorption.Make this be a SONG bonus.

    Inspire Recklessness:
    Expend a use of Bardic Music to grant a +(2/4/6)% morale bonus to double strike chance and -10% fortification to all nearby allies for 3 minutes.
    The -10% fortification is unnecessary.AGAIN a morale bonus so it doesn't stack with any weapons. Any weapon with 6% or greater doublestrike makes this song useless. Make it a +(4/8/12)% SONG bonus.

    Song of Heroism:
    +4 Morale bonus to Attack, all saving throws, and skill checks, as well as immunity to fear, and some temporary hitpoints.
    You guessed it, a morale bonus again. This song is no different than the spell. The fear immunity for this song as well as the spell version has been broken and won't work.
    There is no amount of bug reports that will get the fear immunity fixed. Change this to a SONG bonus and fix the immunity.

    CORE ABILITIES:

    Warmaster: Capstone
    When you Inspire Heroics, for 12 seconds the targeted ally gains +5 Competence bonus to Attack, +5 Competence bonus to Damage, +25 Competence bonus to Physical Resistance
    and +50 Competence bonus to resist Acid, Cold, Electric, and Fire damage. For a Capstone, 12 seconds is laughable.
    This should be a SONG bonus to start with. Give it Evasion and make it last 12 seconds plus increase the duration by 1 second for each point of the perform skill that you have.
    (duration increased by having any increase song duration enhancements or ED's)

    Victory Song:
    Toggle: Grants full Base Attack Bonus when activated. Note there is currently a bug where Victory Song will be disabled after a death, rest shrine, entering a quest or wilderness zone, or upon logging out.
    It can be worked around by simply re-toggling the ability until the next such event.Annoying, fix the dang bug.(and all bugs!!!!)It should stay on until you toggle it off..period.


    Maestro of life and death: Capstone
    +2 Charisma +10 Universal Spell Power You gain the Heal and Wail of the Banshee spells as level 6 Bard spells.
    Change +10 universal spell power to..Spell power is increased by 25% of your total perform skill.
    and you gain +1 DC to Wail of the Banshee, Heal and Reconstruct for every 20 points of your total perform skill.
    You gain Reconstruct as a spell also.


    Other songs: Epic Destinies

    Dirge:
    Deal 10d[4/6/8] Negative damage and 10d[8/10/12] Sonic damage every 3 seconds for 18 seconds (fort save for half). In addition, enemies may be slowed by 5% if they fail their fort save.
    Problem one, Dirges negative damage should HEAL palemaster wizards and their undead minions. Problem two, Dirge damage is a sad panda and it should be increased by +1 for every two points of the perform skill you have.
    Example:
    If I have 88 perform skill then Dirge would do, at third rank 10d8+44 Negative damage and 10d12+44 Sonic damage. This way, it gives non bards using Fatesinger ED or twisting Dirge using perform items a minor damage increase,
    but a bard using Fatersinger or twisting dirge a much bigger damage increase.


    This is just a tip of the iceberg for ways to improve a Bard that wont make them OP, yet fun and desirable in groups. I love my Bard and peeps I play with love my Bard
    but it is only because I am a good player and not because the class is well defined. It needs some much needed love.
    Since Edit doesn't seem to work. I forgot to display that a SONG bonus is a category of differing bonuses available only to a bard (Melody, Musical, Performing, Instrumental, Heavy Metal, Rock and Roll, Banjo etc.) so that they all stack with each other and stack with all other spells/abilities and effects currently in the game.

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    Default i guess ill quote it again...

    Quote Originally Posted by MadCookieQueen View Post
    Quick Question...what do changes to Barbs have to do with questions about Bards?

    I'd also like to note that while Warlocks can be Chaotic alignment, they can also only have Evil alignments. Warlocks are nto considered "good" guys in any traiditional sense and since Turbine doesn't allow for Evil it's hard to get them here.
    seriously, reread your own words. you say they can be chaotic, but must be evil. maybe thats not what you meant, but it seems plain to me.

    you also didnt specify 3.5 until you realised it was the only one that supported your statement (as long as you pretend the 2nd part of the statement doest state must be evil).

    then you claim your statement on palemaster alignment, which was also wrong wasnt based on 3.5 but ddo. so basically you are switching rulebooks when it suits your arguements in hindsight.

    i quoted what was quoted in a homebrew because that was the logic applied when alignment restrictions were changed from 3.5.

    as far as pal splashed wiz goes, you are seriously showing a lack of experience here... first, the pal version also has insightful reflexes. as far as synergy goes, yes pure wiz has very little synergy with charisma, but add 2 pal lvs and the synergy is there. this isnt pnp 3.5, you can add 20+ points to a stat easily, and thats being conservative, thats a huge save boost over a pure wiz, that means not getting knocked down by cometfall, and taking half damage on 95% of aoe spells.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    But it's perfectly fine for a Sorc that can cast a 25 mana (with max/empowered/quicken on it) 800hp reconstruct? And has much better DPS?
    There's so much wrong in this statement.

    Reconstruct is 35 SP.
    Reconstruct cannot be empowered or maximised.
    Reconstruct can be quickened (for a total cost of 45 SP).

    If you are talking about the Bladeforged SLA, than your statement doesn't matter since that is a racial ability and has nothing do to with classes like sorcs. The SLA is calculated with character level instead of class level (max. 15).
    Maximise and Empower don't work on the SLA, quicken does and since it is a SLA it still costs 25 SP.
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  15. #75
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    Default last non-Bard related post

    Quote Originally Posted by 01000010 View Post
    seriously, reread your own words. you say they can be chaotic, but must be evil. maybe thats not what you meant, but it seems plain to me. you also didnt specify 3.5 until you realised it was the only one that supported your statement (as long as you pretend the 2nd part of the statement doest state must be evil).
    I get it, the original statement confused you. I'm not sure how "can be" translates into "must be" but hey if you want to run it that way, that's your call.

    I honestly didn't think I had to state that, as warlocks didn't appear until 3.5 (I'm not counting Eunuch Warlock, prestige class, from 3.0 Oriental Adventures...which btw had a restriction of evil alignments only and a gender restriction of male o.0).

    So, no, I didn't pick and choose any rule book, I used the one from the edition that DDO is using and the one that....wait for it....Warlocks as a full class (see comment above about 3.0 Oriental Adventures) first appear in!

    Quote Originally Posted by 01000010 View Post
    then you claim your statement on palemaster alignment, which was also wrong wasnt based on 3.5 but ddo. so basically you are switching rulebooks when it suits your arguements in hindsight.
    I apologized for lack of clarity, but this whole issue has gone back and forth from DDO rules to 3.5 rules.

    Since Warlocks are not in DDO, I use 3.5 to discuss them.

    Since we have "Pale Masters" in DDO I referenced them according to DDO.

    At no time was my intent to bring up the PM Class (which is different than the PM enhancement...see previous post denoting the differences and vague similarities).

    I think, at this point, you're just hung up on the name.

    Quote Originally Posted by 01000010 View Post
    i quoted what was quoted in a homebrew because that was the logic applied when alignment restrictions were changed from 3.5.
    Looks like the only support you can find for your nonsense is fan made content. Sorry if the official 3.5 write-ups on classes don't suit your tastes.

    Quote Originally Posted by 01000010 View Post
    as far as pal splashed wiz goes, you are seriously showing a lack of experience here... first, the pal version also has insightful reflexes. as far as synergy goes, yes pure wiz has very little synergy with charisma, but add 2 pal lvs and the synergy is there. this isnt pnp 3.5, you can add 20+ points to a stat easily, and thats being conservative, thats a huge save boost over a pure wiz, that means not getting knocked down by cometfall, and taking half damage on 95% of aoe spells.
    Insightful Reflexes is a generic anyone with INT 13+ can take it feat. Of course Pallys can take it. However it doesn't synergize with the main stats for a Paladin, much like CHA doesn't synergize with Wizard. I brought it up because Wizards do have another option to boost saves without going Paladin and losing DC.

    However I'd like to note that if you want to play with the Pale Master Class alignment rules instead of DDO Pale Master Enhancement alignment rules (which there is no limitation outside of the global no Evil alignments in DDO), then sorry you can't have Paladin spiffies* and be a Pale Master** at the same time.

    *Player's Handbook, 3.5 page 42: Paladins must be lawful good, and they lose their divine powers if they deviate from that alignment.

    **I'm aware you can be any other form of Wizard, but have realized that I need to spell every last little thing out.


    ~~~~

    Seriously if you want to finish this discussion PM (private message, not Pale Master...don't want to confuse you any more) me or start a new thread.


    and again back to Bards and only Bards.

  16. #76
    Bacon Queen MadCookieQueen's Avatar
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    Normally I try like all heck to not promote my build any further than Teh_Troll's glowing endorsement...but I think in this case you might want to go through it, especially the gear selections. Since your THF fighting and I'm TWF you may want to cross check with Chai's THF Build.


    Quote Originally Posted by Senowl View Post
    Hey, thanks for all the replys and for the interesting debate! Didn’t realise the angst that bards can cause...
    You're welcome, hope it's helping!

    Most classes cause angst, it's not just a Bard thing ^^


    Quote Originally Posted by Senowl View Post

    I feel the main weaknesses of the character are the defensive elements, in particular lack of evasion and low saves (reflex in particular is a major problem). Hey, you guys might be on to something allowing splashing monk and paladin!
    I know I hit a mid 50's reflex save, it seems to do pretty well, but if you're hitting only mid 30's there room for improvement there. Evasion is spiffy but like other things, you can survive and thrive without it.

    Please don't start on the "must splash Monk or Paladin or you will suck" bandwagon.


    Quote Originally Posted by Senowl View Post
    700 hit points also seems to be too low with the minimal defences I have. It also seems my song buffs are quite useless for other party members (even +2 to all stats probably doesn’t really do much) and take a long time to play so no one sticks around for them! I have I think 28 songs per rest and have maxxed out their duration so inspire lasts around 8-9 minutes.
    I'd be inclined to say that 700 - 750 HP seems to be about median range for epic toons...so you aren't as bad off as you think.

    You can play songs on the run...you don't have to stand there and sing, make it the first thing you do when you get in a quest, I personally go for Courage and Excellence, then do buffs and additional songs, like Recklessness, I do on the go. any other songs are as requested or as needed....you don't' have to play every song under the sun.

    also yeah +2 to all stats is bigger than you think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Senowl View Post
    I feel I’ve got the most I can out of this particular build other than opening up additional fate slots and twisting in some more useful abilities or finding/buying much improved gear. I’m sure though given its my first ever character that there are obvious improvements....
    If you were TWF i'd say twist in Symmetric Strikes (tier 4 from Primal avatar) which when dual wielding grants a 5% primal bonus to damage. (My Balizarde dual wielder Ranger uses this and boy oh boy did it do wonderful things for her damage)

    Primal Scream is worth twisting in...like really worth it (if you don't have it)

    Did you twist in Brace For Impact from Unyielding? A bonus 40% fortification and +2 to saves is really handy.

    The only Fatesinger ability I twist in is Reign...it works fairly well in additional DPS.

    Honestly...you aren't the only one that doesn't get Blitz...I have more frustration and nerd rage when trying to Blitz than I do almost anything else. I like Fury, Unbridled FTW, even though I'm not a Ranged Bard. I find that the overall experience from not being frustrated when fighting with the monkcher or the blitzing toaster over trying to keep your Blitz going to be worth it. again this is just about my play style and you should probably consult your doctor before taking any advice. ^^

  17. #77
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    omg. someone who agrees with me about blitz. i was told it was teh **** must have omg you're gimp if you don't run it. i tried it, and imy response was a resounding 'meh.' if i have to DPS something, i go to the party with my Fury top hat on. hey. it worked for me in EEs, and in shroud...can't be THAT bad XD

    that being said, i also run a THF bard... bit of an older styled build... variant of the classic 16/2/2, but it still works for me, and it's still a viable blast

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    Default nah, lets discuss it in the open

    Im happy to discuss it, but you may want to stop, because the holes getting deep.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadCookieQueen View Post
    I get it, the original statement confused you. I'm not sure how "can be" translates into "must be" but hey if you want to run it that way, that's your call.
    You didn't say "can be", you said "they can also only have Evil alignments", im not confused, you are trying to be misleading to hide the fact you were wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadCookieQueen View Post
    I honestly didn't think I had to state that, as warlocks didn't appear until 3.5 (I'm not counting Eunuch Warlock, prestige class, from 3.0 Oriental Adventures...which btw had a restriction of evil alignments only and a gender restriction of male o.0).

    So, no, I didn't pick and choose any rule book, I used the one from the edition that DDO is using and the one that....wait for it....Warlocks as a full class (see comment above about 3.0 Oriental Adventures) first appear in!
    So, yeah you did choose a rulebook, after I exposed that you were wrong, you chose the one that was closest to making you seem right, lol. This is silly, and I imagine no one is fooled, at least I hope not. At this point claiming ddo is based on any specific version of pnp is kinda ridiculous, its a combo of many versions and a lot of "house rules", many very questionable.

    FYI, when I make a statement about PNP and don't specify version, im referring to the most recent version, you may want to consider doing that yourself.


    Quote Originally Posted by MadCookieQueen View Post
    I apologized for lack of clarity, but this whole issue has gone back and forth from DDO rules to 3.5 rules.

    Since Warlocks are not in DDO, I use 3.5 to discuss them.

    Since we have "Pale Masters" in DDO I referenced them according to DDO.

    At no time was my intent to bring up the PM Class (which is different than the PM enhancement...see previous post denoting the differences and vague similarities).

    I think, at this point, you're just hung up on the name.
    When you speak of gnomes, which are not in DDO do you use the rules from the original version they came out in and argue against the current specifics of the race? You think im hung up on the name? Regardless of class or enhancement or whatever pale masters in ddo, which are plainly based on pale master prestiege in pnp have no alignment restrictions, what they are based on did have alignment restrictions...


    Quote Originally Posted by MadCookieQueen View Post
    Looks like the only support you can find for your nonsense is fan made content. Sorry if the official 3.5 write-ups on classes don't suit your tastes.
    As you know, my "nonsense" was based on the info from the OFFICIAL current version of pen and paer dnd, I did use a quote derived from homebrew to explain simply why the alignment restrictions were lifted in current pnp... apparently the current version of pnp doesn't suit your tastes, seriously, take a look in the mirror.


    Quote Originally Posted by MadCookieQueen View Post
    Insightful Reflexes is a generic anyone with INT 13+ can take it feat. Of course Pallys can take it. However it doesn't synergize with the main stats for a Paladin, much like CHA doesn't synergize with Wizard. I brought it up because Wizards do have another option to boost saves without going Paladin and losing DC.

    However I'd like to note that if you want to play with the Pale Master Class alignment rules instead of DDO Pale Master Enhancement alignment rules (which there is no limitation outside of the global no Evil alignments in DDO), then sorry you can't have Paladin spiffies* and be a Pale Master** at the same time.

    *Player's Handbook, 3.5 page 42: Paladins must be lawful good, and they lose their divine powers if they deviate from that alignment.

    **I'm aware you can be any other form of Wizard, but have realized that I need to spell every last little thing out.

    .
    An 18wiz/2paladin is not a paladin, therefore, assuming the build wants decent dcs, of course int synergizes with it as does insightful reflexes, charisma DOES synergize with any class with 2 paladin levels, OBVIOUSLY. Just to get this straight, you can see how high int and insightful reflexes are synergistic for a build by raising reflex, but you cant see how charisma and divine grace on a build are synergistic by raising all saves? This is exactly equivalent to a fighter taking a couple cleric levels and raising charisma a bit to stack charisma mod on strength with divine might, charisma becomes synergistic with the build as soon as you add class levels that allow it to be used to advantage.

    As far as pal and pale masters, who cares? this isn't pnp, if it were realistically based on pnp you would certainly be able to choose evil alignment, since you cant they have to bend the rules if they want to add prestieges.

    You should really go back and read both all of your posts and all of mine, first thing youll see is I was nice until you treated me with disrespect.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01000010 View Post
    Im happy to discuss it,...
    then please do so in a separate thread and stop derailing a bard thread.

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    Default free bumps

    All someone has to do is read a line or two and they'll see when someone is on a tangent and can go to next post.

    Its a free bump drawing more attention to the bard issues.

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