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  1. #41
    Community Member Archetype's Avatar
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    Default Time for THIS link again:



    .....except in U21 DDO, that is.

    Maybe someday is correct.
    ~Thus we are met, in a time that is no longer a time, at a place that is no longer a place, for we are between the worlds and beyond.~

  2. #42
    Community Member enochiancub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    So lawful good assassins are cool, lawful good necromancers are cool, but lawful good bards arent?

    If a game is going to have an alignment based stance on min maxing, how about some consistency?

    Or better yet, remove alignment restriction from paladin. Its not like the lawful good dieties are the only ones who can have holy warriors representing them in the lands of mortals....
    Where the hell did that come from? Because I should have known it was a min/max thing I think lawful good necros and assassins are cool?

    I was more chuffing myself on the chin for not figuring it out sooner. I'm a casual player and I don't think about things like that. My comment wasn't negative in anyway.

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  3. #43
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    as much as i would most likely gleefully use my +20 hearts to splash monk into at least 2-3 of my current stable of bards if they removed the alignment restriction... doing so only caters to the OP nature of monks, without fixing the underlying problems of bards.
    Right, and since that isnt going away, any striker class/build who cannot take monk levels is left behind. Removing the alignment restriction on paladins would not allow bards to splash monk however.

  4. #44
    Bacon Queen MadCookieQueen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01000010 View Post
    A pale master alignment restriction is pnp was any NON-GOOD, warlocks have no alignment restrictions, some basic research would've revealed that to you.

    And pal lvls on a wiz works very well. Its -1dc + a ton saves.

    Okay...let's just settle this:


    Warlock: Complete Arcane 3.5 page 7, Alignment: Any evil or any chaotic. Perhaps if you actually did some real research, like, the actual book, you might have known this.


    Now let's talk Pale Masters...The Pale Master tree is not a replacement for the prestige class featured in Libris Mortis, the prestige class itself must have you as non-good. However Wizards as a class have no alignment restrictions and since enhancements are not considered prestige classes in DDO this actually doesn't apply.

    If you want to go around and around on where the PnP prestige class for Pale Master and the Pale Master tree in DDO differ, let's just do that.

    Pale Master Class (PMC), Pale Master Enhancement (PME)

    PMC Undead Cohort is really a PME Skeleton Knight...yet the PMC doesn't allow to upgrade the heck out of it, where as the PME can specialize into it...please note the ability to enhance the skeleton knight really comes form the Specialist Necromancy variant in the Unearthed Arcana.

    PMC and PME have a form of Deathless Vigor...now the PMC grants a +4 fortitude save bonus the PME grants hit points.

    PMC Have Undead Armor affinity at levels 4 and 8 but this only allows the PMC to use undead armor types with up to a 20% less ASF. The PME Bone Armor only works if you have a shroud active and it grants dodge.

    PMC has undead graft which allows the PMC to exchange out limbs for undead ones, this is a completely different mechanic from the PME Shroud forms.

    One of the bonuses to PMC is the different Touch attacks, Degenerative Touch, Destructive Touch and Deathless Master's Touch. Except for Necrotic Touch as an SLA the PME doesn't have this.

    The shrouds actually come from a good old fashioned Lich itself. Liches themselves can be of any alignment, and "good liches" were chronicled in the Forgotten realms. I am not getting into the entire Lich process, hopefully you can do some research for yourself.

    In conclusion...no the PMC and it's alignment restrictions are different than the resulting PME and the PME is actually a mixture of different subsets and rules for Wizards in D&D.


    Now tell me how a -1 to DC in a very persnickety system where 1 makes a difference, truly a good thing for EE?

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype View Post


    .....except in U21 DDO, that is.

    Maybe someday is correct.
    why aren't they awesome in U21?
    i'm having no trouble solo-exploring so far...

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  6. #46
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by enochiancub View Post
    Where the hell did that come from? Because I should have known it was a min/max thing I think lawful good necros and assassins are cool?

    I was more chuffing myself on the chin for not figuring it out sooner. I'm a casual player and I don't think about things like that. My comment wasn't negative in anyway.
    It comes from answering a question regarding how altering lore on alignment restriction will affect the game. My comment is not negative in any way either. Im saying if they are going to have a lore/alignment based stance on game balance, it needs to be a consistent stance, and I also pointed out examples where it is not consistent. If we can have lawful good necromancers, and lawful good assassins, it makes no sense to tell us we cant have a neutral good paladin or a lawful good bard.

  7. #47
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadCookieQueen View Post

    Now tell me how a -1 to DC in a very persnickety system where 1 makes a difference, truly a good thing for EE?
    Ill trade that 1 DC for +15 to all saves. Since 1 makes a difference, 15 can be the difference between mostly fail to mostly succeed. A 15 mod on fairly dumped cha at creation is not tough to acheive. This level of power creep is why paladin levels are so sought after on builds trying to get good saves. This is in part why bards and barbarians get left out in the cold. Cant get the offense bonuses of monk or the defense bonus of paladin, which the other classes can get.
    Last edited by Chai; 03-19-2014 at 09:31 AM.

  8. #48
    Bacon Queen MadCookieQueen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    as much as i would most likely gleefully use my +20 hearts to splash monk into at least 2-3 of my current stable of bards if they removed the alignment restriction... doing so only caters to the OP nature of monks, without fixing the underlying problems of bards.
    ^^ this!


    Unrelated note but it'll stop me from multiple postings: I'm a chick...please use the correct pronoun.

  9. #49
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Right, and since that isnt going away, any striker class/build who cannot take monk levels is left behind. Removing the alignment restriction on paladins would not allow bards to splash monk however.
    You could still splash Rogue and gain Evasion. Other than Evasion the only other benefit to a Bard would be the two feats.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadCookieQueen View Post
    Unrelated note but it'll stop me from multiple postings: I'm a chick...please use the correct pronoun.
    I suppose I could try to remember the gender of every single individual on the web. While I try to stick to "they" and similar pronouns, they simply don't work for every sentence and I do try to remain consistent so I rarely use feminine pronouns unless I just happen to know the individual. If you care enough about it, put something in your signature.
    Last edited by Ryiah; 03-19-2014 at 10:00 AM.
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  10. #50
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryiah View Post
    You could still splash Rogue and gain Evasion. Other than Evasion the only other benefit to a Bard would be the two feats.
    A decent benefit, considering I can feat out the monk stances with those 2 feats, then when I add the 2 paladin levels to it I get huge saves boost. Even on a dumped cha build I can get ~+15 to all saves. This is practically the recipe for the other striker style fotm builds. Centered kensai, monkcher, juggs, even some shiradi spammers, etc.

    When something this powerful gets introduced into a game, those classes that cannot use it get left behind. Monks have been harped on for years now and they only made them MORE powerful in the enhancement pass - reinforcing the belief that monk/paladin splashes will not be adjusted back down to earth - the other option is to let those who could not previously have them, to have them.

    I dont even really want bard monk multiclass, but bard paladin is more realistic. That large of a boost in saves is the difference between having relevant saves in EE -vs- simply dumping them in favor of building for other stuff. Its the same problem we had with AC in the past, and DCs currently. If saves bonus from one thing gets too far ahead, they have to balance EE for those saves totals, and anything that cant use it might as well not build for it because without the bunus, their saves will be irrelevant.
    Last edited by Chai; 03-19-2014 at 10:18 AM.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryiah View Post
    You could still splash Rogue and gain Evasion. Other than Evasion the only other benefit to a Bard would be the two feats.
    Errr ... Technically, there is more : 2 monk levels give evasion, 2 feats, stances (which introduce flexibility), the possibility of taking the adept of form line, the possibility to use dance of flower while centered and +3 to all saves while 2 rogue give evasion, traps (that can be game confort and moar quest xp), 1d6 sneak, and +3 to reflex save.

    As a lover of bards, I must admit anyway this class is broken in at least 4 ways :

    - it's broken in its technical conception (I think the song mechanics are the most broken thing in this game, like, every patch and update breaks things in those and each feat swap, destiny manipulation, enhancement modification can put you in trouble)
    - it's broken by the power creep in this game (which is a natural - but bad - evolution for a game this old) which comes in contradiction with the bard's alignment restrictions (I've never been a great fan of alignment in RPGs maybe because I started playing with the 2nd and 3rd generation where roles were more important than rules or just because I'm chaotic IRL )
    - it's broken by the party's attitude/absence of understanding of what a bard can do ("please sp song" anyone ?)
    - it's broken by many bards who don't adapt to the game's evolution : man, nobody stays at the dungeon entrance for 3 minutes waiting for buffs and be sure to understand which song is redundant with another party or ship buff - I just throw song of heroism and inspire courage on heroics. On epics, I add inspire excellence while running. Other songs I do them only if someone specifically asks.


    To answer the initial question, the thing is music of the dead, yeah, is kinda broken (in its scaling mostly). I've found undead to have good will saves and unintelligent undeads (like skellies) to be completely immune. So don't be surprised if you can mesmerize a wight more easily than a stupid skeleton archer - and don't be surprised if the wight saves like 6 seconds after being fascinated.
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  12. #52
    Community Member Asirin's Avatar
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    Default Frozen Fury is terrible.

    Trying to understand why someone decided to make Frozen Fury DC only 14+cha. Even monks get 1/2 monk level added to the dc of quivering palm. Such a viable ability with such a terrible DC range.

    Now I'd like to mention my WC bard is only 12 and I'm not sure if the DC improves later on...hopefully so.
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  13. #53
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    Default hmm

    so first you say:

    Quote Originally Posted by MadCookieQueen View Post
    Warlocks can be Chaotic alignment, they can also only have Evil alignments. Warlocks are nto considered "good" guys in any traiditional sense and since Turbine doesn't allow for Evil it's hard to get them here.
    which is incorrect, period.

    and then you say:

    Quote Originally Posted by MadCookieQueen View Post
    Warlock: Complete Arcane 3.5 page 7, Alignment: Any evil or any chaotic.
    Which contradicts your first post although you seem to think it supports it, however you specify 3.5. This is semi correct, some versions of 3.5 allow any, however, 4.0 specifically allows any alignment. Im not fond of 3.5 or 4.0, but regardless, any alignment goes because: Alignment: Warlocks who bargain away their souls for power tend to be Evil, though nothing requires them to be. In fact, demons and devils will jump on the chance to corrupt someone Good to Team Evil, but such instances are rare. People whose power comes from their blood can be any alignment.

    As far as the differences between pnp palemaster and ddo, duh... But the fact remains you said palemasters could be any alignment in pnp (thereby trying to justify your argument), this was also false.

    And yes, making your saves in ee is more important than 1 dc, EASILY.

  14. #54
    Community Member SardaofChaos's Avatar
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    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-of-Eilistraee

    Bards maybe sorta somewhat pretty damn awesome

    (It's in MCQ's sig but I know some people skim right past those so I figured I'd put it in an actual post)

  15. #55
    Community Member Wulverine's Avatar
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    Make Inspire Courage a %-boost to DPS instead of a flat number that is worthless in epics.

    Done.
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  16. #56
    Bacon Queen MadCookieQueen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01000010 View Post
    so first you say:

    Quote Originally Posted by MadCookieQueen View Post
    I'd also like to note that while Warlocks can be Chaotic alignment, they can also only have Evil alignments. Warlocks are nto considered "good" guys in any traiditional sense and since Turbine doesn't allow for Evil it's hard to get them here.


    which is incorrect, period.
    I dont' think you could be anymore wrong if you tried but +1 for the attempt.


    Quote Originally Posted by 01000010 View Post
    and then you say:

    Quote Originally Posted by MadCookieQueen View Post
    Okay...let's just settle this:


    Warlock: Complete Arcane 3.5 page 7, Alignment: Any evil or any chaotic. Perhaps if you actually did some real research, like, the actual book, you might have known this.
    Which contradicts your first post although you seem to think it supports it, however you specify 3.5.
    I need you to do a full re-read. I did not contradict my own post about Warlock alignment restrictions. Stated as is...they can be any chaotic or they can only have evil alignments....if I have to spell this out then: CG, CN, LE, NE, CE...that is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by 01000010 View Post
    This is semi correct, some versions of 3.5 allow any, however, 4.0 specifically allows any alignment. Im not fond of 3.5 or 4.0, but regardless, any alignment goes because: Alignment: Warlocks who bargain away their souls for power tend to be Evil, though nothing requires them to be. In fact, demons and devils will jump on the chance to corrupt someone Good to Team Evil, but such instances are rare. People whose power comes from their blood can be any alignment.

    As far as the differences between pnp palemaster and ddo, duh... But the fact remains you said palemasters could be any alignment in pnp (thereby trying to justify your argument), this was also false.
    Hate to burst your bubble but DDO is based around 3.5, not 4.0. So yes quoting 3.5 source material is much more accurate.

    What you have there about the alignment...makes me laugh. You pulled that out of Home Brew D&D 3.5. That has nothing to to with the official WoTC version, that Turbine licenses from. Please oh please do not quote fan made rules when trying to discuss official D&D concepts.

    I was not referring to Pale Masters in PnP when I made that last statement I was talking about DDO...but I can see where the confusion sets in from. I apologize if I wasn't clear enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by 01000010 View Post
    And yes, making your saves in ee is more important than 1 dc, EASILY.
    Insightful Reflexes...ring a bell...you know INT to Reflex Save. Also if you are rocking the PM tree being Undead gives you a bunch of bonuses against effects.

    Also Paladin is CHA...Wizards are INT, they lack a synergy there so you wind of short changing something just to have a great CHA to make it work like a fiend.

    ~~~~

    Seriously this side discussion needs to stop...we've run way off topic here.

    Back to Bards!

  17. #57
    Bacon Queen MadCookieQueen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SardaofChaos View Post
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-of-Eilistraee

    Bards maybe sorta somewhat pretty damn awesome

    (It's in MCQ's sig but I know some people skim right past those so I figured I'd put it in an actual post)

    She is, that toon is wicked fun and very badass...I have no problems going toe to toe with EE content and rocking it.


    thanks for the shout out ^^

  18. #58
    Community Member RD2play's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadCookieQueen View Post
    The problem is that Song of the Dead doesn't work on skeletons. It actually doesn't' seem to work much at all. Also it and Music of the Makers and Sewers doesn't scale to match Fascinate. However a Perform of 80 rocks EE Stormhorns and it will nail the Necromancers running around with the skeletons in Thunderholme.

    I'd like to see this fixed.

    That being said there's a long standing debate on whether skeletons can understand the music, due to their lack of brain. However that's an old PnP debate and I'm not sure if this is something Turbine devs have discussed in full.
    The sound waves will resonate the bones making it impossible for the skeleton to move.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    as much as i would most likely gleefully use my +20 hearts to splash monk into at least 2-3 of my current stable of bards if they removed the alignment restriction... doing so only caters to the OP nature of monks, without fixing the underlying problems of bards.
    1) If you cannot defeat them, join them
    2) If the alignment is relaxed only for bard, you could not simply LR+20 your bards to monk, you'd have to change your alignment = more $$$ for Turbine!

    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    16/2/2 Charisma based PDK with shortswords. What a synergy.
    3) Requires monks, iconics, and a +1 heart. Even more money for Turbine!

  20. #60
    Bacon Queen MadCookieQueen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RD2play View Post
    The sound waves will resonate the bones making it impossible for the skeleton to move.
    This I'm not sure on since Fascinate is more akin to a magical compulsion effect (stand in trance listening to pretty music, even after it faded), what you are saying there is more on par with a sonic physical effect.

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