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  1. #1
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    Default Bards maybe sorta somewhat useful soonish?

    Hi all, I’m a new player just ticking into my second month of playtime. Yes I know bards are gimped and all but I enjoy a challenge so my first life character is a bard warchanter build who has just hit level 28, has pretty minimal gear and is pretty obviously sub-optimal compared to the million past life robot splash monk builds I usually find myself running round with (thanks for the resses if any of you are reading).

    Anyway, since the update I’ve been poking around in Thunderholme trying to scrounge together enough ingots to get a greataxe upgraded to tier 2. I was there last night grinding my way through seemingly endless mobs of undead when it dawned on me that one of the enhancements I had previously passed over in the Spellsinger tree supposedly allows bards to fascinate undead. Even though I’m mainly warchanter (yeah, I know, another gimp choice), I still have a perform of around 80 which I figured should be just enough to hit mobs in the wilderness area making my life hopefully much easier down there. I was feeling quite excited as I respecced into this ability and rushed back down to Moria...um, I mean Thunderholme...to try it out.

    Anyway, long story short it appears that the undead down there just laughed at my stupid song not only saving every single time but also apparently immune as well (and here was me thinking that SR doesn’t apply to songs). I thought at first maybe they are deaf undead dwarfs but they seem to hear me all right when I try to run past them invis (not recommended really given the lag this seems to build up over time).

    Further research today (which has brought me for the first time to these forums!) suggests that this is in fact a bug and, promisingly, is slated for a fix in the next patch. Given I have now discovered the forums, I have just a few questions which it would be great if anyone could answer:

    1. Will a perform of 80 be around enough to hit undead mobs in Thunderholme (assuming the song is fixed in the next patch)?

    2. Would this be of any use in a party, or probably only just solo?

    3. Is there any potential for song to be useful in the actual raid content, particularly given the masses of undead. Is there any need for CC that a bard could fill? (I admit I’ve only done the raid once - there was no CC there and I spent the whole time unable to move through crippling lag and multiple deaths)

    4. Any feel for when the patch will come up (and whats the odds on it actually being fixed)?

    Basically Im trying to decide whether I should hang on a few more weeks with this character, run some more epic content, or maybe just bite the bullet and work out what this whole TR thing is about with some other (non bard but likely still gimp) second life build?

  2. #2
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    I think the devs would prefer you to play shiradi sorc or monkcher in their epic content.

  3. #3
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    Bards are the red-headed bastard stepchildren of DDO. I can't remember a time when they weren't hopelessly broken.

    I remember my first attempt at a bard was about the time the new enhancement tree was brought out. Most of the enhancements you chose would disappear the moment you logged off so every time you wanted to play your bard you needed to reselect all your enhancements in the enhancement UI. That one took almost 3 months to fix.

    In short, I wouldn't hold your breath.

  4. #4
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    funny but when I play my warchanter bard he was often the guy rezzing the monkchers and robot monk or monk/splashed.

    Its still a pretty decent class, its got self heals and buffs and some CC its just that the enhancement trees are pretty .............really subpar compared to what other classes get and yeah all the bugs and things not working properly do not help.

  5. #5
    Halfling Hero phalaeo's Avatar
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    The devs either don't understand Bards or don't care. We get subpar melee, subpar casting, and it's all supposed to be ok because we're specialists. Specialists who can't specialize in anything. I'm going to keep playing my Bard because I love her, but honestly, Turbine needs to get a clue re: the PrEs and Fatesinger.
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  6. #6
    Death's Dominator Eth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brendael View Post
    Bards are the red-headed bastard stepchildren of DDO. I can't remember a time when they weren't hopelessly broken.
    You don't remember the Epic VoN 5/6 'Need bard' LFMs?
    Thelanis - Ethforged - Etherar - Fjirty --- Mitis Mors
    Ghallanda - Ethrayne - Ethryne --- Omnipresence
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    You don't remember the Epic VoN 5/6 'Need bard' LFMs?
    My dual boxed bard is still very welcome in Hox when people are looking for twink gear also
    ~ Khyber - Crimson Eagles ~
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  8. #8
    Death's Dominator Eth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MeliCat View Post
    My dual boxed bard is still very welcome in Hox when people are looking for twink gear also
    That's a lame excuse for keeping your bard.
    My last HoX had no bard/arti/hjealor or whatnot. All the puppies had was haste (from clickies) and primal scream. It took forever but we got it done.

    Reroll your bard please!
    Thelanis - Ethforged - Etherar - Fjirty --- Mitis Mors
    Ghallanda - Ethrayne - Ethryne --- Omnipresence
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    You don't remember the Epic VoN 5/6 'Need bard' LFMs?
    I've only been around for about two years.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    That's a lame excuse for keeping your bard.
    My last HoX had no bard/arti/hjealor or whatnot. All the puppies had was haste (from clickies) and primal scream. It took forever but we got it done.

    Reroll your bard please!
    . Sounds like you guys.

    Did you grease the puppies too?

    I ain't doing nuthin' to that bard. It gets dragged out so that Hox *doesnt* take ages and to hold the first LoB instance before piking pulls (although I have tank healed for LoB on that now I think of it).

    Most useful bloody/shadow/cursed crypt opener I've ever had...
    ~ Khyber - Crimson Eagles ~
    ~ Mellinator ~ Mellant ~ Melizzic ~ Melton ~ Melvanwy ~

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brendael View Post
    I've only been around for about two years.
    we're being silly.

    There are some totally awesome bard players out there who might chip in. I've seen some mixed builds just totally kick posteriors. But you're also not the first to declaim their shortcomings. You've asked some great questions so I'm sure they'll help.
    ~ Khyber - Crimson Eagles ~
    ~ Mellinator ~ Mellant ~ Melizzic ~ Melton ~ Melvanwy ~

  12. #12
    Death's Dominator Eth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brendael View Post
    I've only been around for about two years.
    Before U14 that was a common request for VoN6 since bards high fascinate DC allowed to easily CC the trash mobs on the 3 bases.
    Bards were also somewhat useful since a properly specced DPS bard usually meant more overall DPS to a raid then another 'standard' DPS, due to the song buffs.

    (btw. I did play a warchanter and a spellsinger for a long time )
    Thelanis - Ethforged - Etherar - Fjirty --- Mitis Mors
    Ghallanda - Ethrayne - Ethryne --- Omnipresence
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by MeliCat View Post
    we're being silly.

    There are some totally awesome bard players out there who might chip in. I've seen some mixed builds just totally kick posteriors. But you're also not the first to declaim their shortcomings. You've asked some great questions so I'm sure they'll help.
    Ah, maybe I should clarify. I had fun playing mine. They just seem to have a lot more bugs compared to other classes which Turbine just doesn't seem to prioritise fixing. (Hence my Red-headed comment.)

    I personally had a huge amount of fun getting my one bard to level 11 before the enhancement pass broke her. At lower levels it is a wonderfully tactical class to play.

  14. #14
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    In the BYOH, BYO-CC, BYO-DPS, BYO-buffs world, the traditional role of bards is gone.

    No monk/paladin multiclassing excludes them from the best offensive and defensive options in the game. Lifting the alignment restriction would be huge. Bards in Pathfinder and DND 4E can be of any alignment. DDO is slowly moving towards 4E, let's do it now.

  15. #15
    Community Member Noctus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cru121 View Post
    No monk/paladin multiclassing excludes them from the best offensive and defensive options in the game. Lifting the alignment restriction would be huge. Bards in Pathfinder and DND 4E can be of any alignment. DDO is slowly moving towards 4E, let's do it now.

    This would be a good step in the right direction.

    Bards need some big love.
    Erzskalde (Warchanter) / Erzmarschall (melee FvS) / Erzsoldat (waiting for TR-time) / Erzschmied (ranged Artificer)

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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noctus View Post
    This would be a good step in the right direction.

    Bards need some big love.
    Yes, removal of the alignment restriction would be a great help to bards....make it happen!!

  17. #17
    Bacon Queen MadCookieQueen's Avatar
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    I guess someone should actually answer the original questions instead of starting the "Bards are gimp because they can't take Monk or Paladin" nonsense. You don't need to have either to build a great a toon. (Also 4E is dumb)

    Also Bards are more in par with being Generalists and not really Specialists. Their wide range of abilities allow them to fill any role within a party. They can heal, not quite to Cleric or FVS levels but Bards have stepped in to keep a raid party standing. They can DPS but no, they are not going to match a tweaked out robot of cheese, however they are dang fine "scrappers" (using a Comic Book term). In short they can do a bit of everything.

    I'd also advise that like most of the other classes a straight 20 levels of Bard isn't exactly ideal. Mixing classes is a pretty set part of DnD in general and should be looked at as such. Don't be afraid to run an 18/2 or a 16/2/2 or whatever floats your boat. You're still playing a Bard you're just using other classes to help bring out more of the abilities you want to use.

    Quote Originally Posted by Senowl View Post

    1. Will a perform of 80 be around enough to hit undead mobs in Thunderholme (assuming the song is fixed in the next patch)?
    The problem is that Song of the Dead doesn't work on skeletons. It actually doesn't' seem to work much at all. Also it and Music of the Makers and Sewers doesn't scale to match Fascinate. However a Perform of 80 rocks EE Stormhorns and it will nail the Necromancers running around with the skeletons in Thunderholme.

    I'd like to see this fixed.

    That being said there's a long standing debate on whether skeletons can understand the music, due to their lack of brain. However that's an old PnP debate and I'm not sure if this is something Turbine devs have discussed in full.

    Quote Originally Posted by Senowl View Post
    2. Would this be of any use in a party, or probably only just solo?
    CC any trash mob is a BIG help to any party and especially yourself when running solo. I have guildies who could tell you about all the times my Enthrallment or Fascinate (I swap between the two) have saved their cookies.

    However if you plan to Fascinate, let your party know. IPS and Cleaves will ruin your work and make it harder on the players if stuff is going horribly wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Senowl View Post
    3. Is there any potential for song to be useful in the actual raid content, particularly given the masses of undead. Is there any need for CC that a bard could fill? (I admit I’ve only done the raid once - there was no CC there and I spent the whole time unable to move through crippling lag and multiple deaths)
    CC isn't going to stop lag, it's going to help increase your odds of survival but you are still praying that it goes off and works as the lag is slowing everything to a crawl.

    Also note a Bard's Fascinate or Enthrallment is (IMHO) the top of the line CC in most situations. They have better chances of CCing a mob fully than a high DC Wizard in EE content....least without blowing a bunch of SP to neg level everything first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Senowl View Post
    4. Any feel for when the patch will come up (and whats the odds on it actually being fixed)?

    Basically Im trying to decide whether I should hang on a few more weeks with this character, run some more epic content, or maybe just bite the bullet and work out what this whole TR thing is about with some other (non bard but likely still gimp) second life build?
    I wish there was more info on what they plan to fix or enhance to Bards in the next patch, however it seems like we'll finally see the Swashbuckler tree (which I think is supposed to be a bit more elegant DPS as opposed to whatever the heck Warchanter is). There's so much bugged with Bards it's what really is holding back the class. Many Bard players will tell you that if they would just fix the bugs and shorten the song animation times, Bards could be seen as really viable again.


    Could you post your build and gear list, it would help us find out where things could be improved.

    Good luck and game on!

  18. #18
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cru121 View Post
    In the BYOH, BYO-CC, BYO-DPS, BYO-buffs world, the traditional role of bards is gone.

    No monk/paladin multiclassing excludes them from the best offensive and defensive options in the game. Lifting the alignment restriction would be huge. Bards in Pathfinder and DND 4E can be of any alignment. DDO is slowly moving towards 4E, let's do it now.
    Bards could be lawful neutral in 1.0 as well.

    But I'd prefer to see them fix the actual class, rather than fix it by allowing monk levels.

    It's actually an amazingly fun class to play, and my level 28 bard can solo anything on hard with no problems. Elite, however, leaves him crying for mommy and if running in a party, essentially useless in most content. The problem is simply that spell dcs can't possibly become high enough to work, defenses and saves cannot be made high enough, none of his bard abilities work on any red names, and his dps is always going to be less than everyone else.

    Meanwhile, we have monks with no fail saves, ac and prr into the stratosphere in spite of wearing pajamas, improved evasion, insta kills, mass insta kills, and the ability to have sustained burst dps from a distance. Oh yeah, and he runs faster than anyone else in the game, ensuring that any bards in the group get to come onto the scene just in time to watch everything die. The monk is completelyself contained and essentially invulnerable so has no use for anything a bard can do.

    Magical toasters aren't too far behind, with infinite powerful self healing, pretty much endless sp, rapid fire nuking from a distance, and pretty awesome saves and defenses with a pally and/or monk splash.
    J
    The only unique ability a bard has that is even slightly useable is fascinate/enthrall. And it's basically useless in parties be cause it breaks when the mob is hit, and most times the monks and robots have eliminated the entire room full of mobs before the song is over anyway. None of the bard buffs are actually needed by anyone, and many of them are available from ship buffs or innate abilities/spells from casters.

    So ironically, I solo almost everything on my bard even though he's supposed to be a party toon. I can blitz my way through almost any content without ever using a heal or a shrine. I can get my dcs to work in hard so I have actual cc that doesn't break as I'm clearing, and my dps is ok because I'm blitzing in LD.

    The bottom line is that ddo is a video game and bards are a class for a role playing game. Monks are the perfect class for a video game, and instead of reigning them in a bit to allow other classes to shine. So monks and monk splashes are really the easy button for ddo.

  19. #19
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    Default heres my idea

    1st, add warlock to game, at lvl 2 they can add charisma bonus to saves and have no alignment restrictions(among other nice abilities).

    2nd, give barbarians an "anger stance" that works similar to the monk stances, 1 lvl of barb opens up all feats to take normally, 6/12/18 barb autogrants. Since barb levels don't give feats or evasion add something else, since barb dr has been made near useless in this game due to massive damage at high levels, make it prr...

    Barb lvl 01: Annoyed: +1 strength and con, stacking prr of barb lvl*1.
    Barb lvl 06: Angry: +2 strength and con, stacking prr of barb lvl*2.
    Barb lvl 12: Irate: +3 strength and con, stacking prr of barb lvl*3 +1 crit multiplier on MELEE weapons.
    Barb lvl 18: Seriously ****ed off: +4 strength and con, stacking prr of barb lvl*4.

    Yes this would mean 18+ barbs would have some nice prr, but they should based on lore and drawbacks of the class.

    That's all it would take, all classes would have access to defense and offense with few drawbacks, but with alignment restrictions you couldnt doublestack it.
    Last edited by 01000010; 03-19-2014 at 09:09 AM.

  20. #20
    Community Member Belwaar's Avatar
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    I know several pure bards that are very good at what they do. Learn what a bars can do and then maximize that efficiency. Simple really.
    S E N T I N E L S
    **Belwaar** | Waarfists | *Waartitan* | Waarmage | *Waarsavant* | *Waarchanter* | Waarknuckle | Waarforged | Waarfavored | *Torgaar* | *Waarmedic* | Neissa | Khurg | Jaxsen | *Kelindros*

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