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  1. #41
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    Can we please scrap the lore part of this discussion?

    Take the self healing from the WF and I doubt that we see every other informed player choose a Toaster for his arcanes.

  2. #42
    Community Member Knobull's Avatar
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    Some people do have innate musical ability. Many years ago I had a friend who could pick up any musical instrument and play perfectly with no practice at all, as if by magic. It was truly something incredible. Sadly he committed suicide which seems to happen too much to people with special gifts.

    Anyway, point is while the majority of musicians work very hard to build their skills, some really are just born with it, though this is the exception, not the rule. Just throwing that out there.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    And balance is NOT an illusion. It is meant to keep the game fun. Like in every single other game in the world.
    Leading to the opportunity for me to say that your vision of the game does not sound fun to me. No thank you.

    Popular builds are not always the most powerful and they most certainly are not the only choices. The most jaw dropping DPS I've seen in the game recently was a druid staff build with a level split that didn't jump out at me as having obvious reasons. It was not a robot, and robot staff builds are the fotm.

    My shiradi is a warforged, but if I could switch to human without having to go through 20 heroic levels... I'd be human in a heart beat. I went robot because I bought the forum wisdom that palemaster was the weaker choice... after playing in the game through 4 ETRs, mostly on EE. I disagree with the forum wisdom, but palemaster shiradi is not the popular option so it isn't fotm.

    Reacting emotionally to perceived inbalance is one of the worst ways to guide changes to a game. The balance changes that the game needs are
    1. Buffs to the bard and barbarian classes.
    2. Buffs to the divine epic destinies.
    3. Buffs to medium/heavy armor and shields
    4. Buffs to capstones.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by enochiancub View Post
    I wish I had innately known how to play the violin! Would have saved me many many years of dedication and frustrating practice. Heh.
    Exactly I have to practice all the time or my guitar playing gets worse than it already is.

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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    Being Tone Deaf probably has something to do with it.

    Mozart, Beethoven, Hendrix - These are the real life equivalents of Bards in DDO.

    If you want to talk about Poets or Artists - Again these are not Learned abilities - They are Innate and all a teacher can do is bring out what is already there.

    Picking up and learning to play a musical instrument is one thing.
    A Bard is something completely different!

    This was accepted in D&D with Musical Instrument being a Proficiency that anyone could take BUT ONLY Bards get to do all that special stuff with it!
    Rubbish. Bard skills are learned just like any other class. And Jimi Hendrix wasn't born with the ability to bang out Third Stone from the Sun. He had to learn to play and write songs first.


    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    Absolute rot!

    You don't learn to channel Anger - You hold it in and hold it in and hold it in until it bursts!
    There is more being a barbarian than simply being able to rage. And yes, you can learn to do things with your anger besides hold it in, which is also something you have to learn to do.

    If warforged are 'ruining' the game for you, play something else or don't group with them. Don't spout uninformed 'lore' nonsense as a rationale for game balance simply because you don't like something.

  6. #46
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    Considering that Musical Ability in this world {the REAL one} is INNATE and cannot be Learned!
    .
    Wow what world do you live in?

    Ever heard of Piano lessons Guitar lessens?

    You sure as can learn Musical ability your not going to learn to be a musical genius but, almost anyone who puts a little effort into it sure could learn to play a few tunes.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    Leading to the opportunity for me to say that your vision of the game does not sound fun to me. No thank you.

    Popular builds are not always the most powerful and they most certainly are not the only choices. The most jaw dropping DPS I've seen in the game recently was a druid staff build with a level split that didn't jump out at me as having obvious reasons. It was not a robot, and robot staff builds are the fotm.

    My shiradi is a warforged, but if I could switch to human without having to go through 20 heroic levels... I'd be human in a heart beat. I went robot because I bought the forum wisdom that palemaster was the weaker choice... after playing in the game through 4 ETRs, mostly on EE. I disagree with the forum wisdom, but palemaster shiradi is not the popular option so it isn't fotm.

    Reacting emotionally to perceived inbalance is one of the worst ways to guide changes to a game. The balance changes that the game needs are
    1. Buffs to the bard and barbarian classes.
    2. Buffs to the divine epic destinies.
    3. Buffs to medium/heavy armor and shields
    4. Buffs to capstones.
    Yup

    The ANTI-Realms FANBOI NUKE THE REALMS ITS THE ONLY REAL WAY TO BE SURE

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    Can we please scrap the lore part of this discussion?

    Take the self healing from the WF and I doubt that we see every other informed player choose a Toaster for his arcanes.
    You were the one who brought up lore as a thing against warforged once proved wrong you don't want it used I DONT THINK SO. you don't like them don't play them or group with them or be in a guild that allows them and put all you see on your ignore list.

    The ANTI-Realms FANBOI NUKE THE REALMS ITS THE ONLY REAL WAY TO BE SURE

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    Due to their capacity to heal with magic, Toasters / Lego men have come to dominate magic in DDO.

    This, imho, is bad for a variety of reasons.

    1. Lore. It is not brought up often, but I think a large number of players choose DDO over other MMORPG because it is loyal to its D&D inspiration.

    Warforged are NOT meant to be wizards, but fighters.

    http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Warforged


    2. Balance. Arcane casters have the best offensive capacity of the game. Balance comes from the fact that they are NOT as resilient as fighters or divine casters (and of course SP management, but this is another matter). A Toaster is a selfish cleric and an arcane at the same time and this breaks balance.


    I am aware that some players will shout that there are enough nerfs coming our way as it is, or that they find it funny to have a caster robot, or that they have already invested a lot of time in their Toasters of Vengeance. To me, those are not valid reasons to keep something that doesn't work on the two most important fronts of the game: balance and lore. Compensations could be handed to mitigate the pain of the adjustment.
    Since this game started in Eberron and with WF, you are coming in a little late with your protests. ;D

  10. #50
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    Being Tone Deaf probably has something to do with it.

    Mozart, Beethoven, Hendrix - These are the real life equivalents of Bards in DDO.

    If you want to talk about Poets or Artists - Again these are not Learned abilities - They are Innate and all a teacher can do is bring out what is already there.



    Picking up and learning to play a musical instrument is one thing.
    A Bard is something completely different!

    This was accepted in D&D with Musical Instrument being a Proficiency that anyone could take BUT ONLY Bards get to do all that special stuff with it!



    Absolute rot!


    You don't learn to channel Anger - You hold it in and hold it in and hold it in until it bursts!
    Again what world do you live in?

    Maybe you need to do some research on Bards and oral traditions.

  11. #51
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    Absolute rot!

    You don't learn to channel Anger - You hold it in and hold it in and hold it in until it bursts!
    The actual fit of madness the berserker experienced was referred to as berserkergang ("going berserk"). This condition has been described as follows:

    This fury, which was called berserkergang, occurred not only in the heat of battle, but also during laborious work. Men who were thus seized performed things which otherwise seemed impossible for human power. This condition is said to have begun with shivering, chattering of the teeth, and chill in the body, and then the face swelled and changed its colour. With this was connected a great hot-headedness, which at last gave over into a great rage, under which they howled as wild animals, bit the edge of their shields, and cut down everything they met without discriminating between friend or foe. When this condition ceased, a great dulling of the mind and feebleness followed, which could last for one or several days

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    Toasters / Lego men have come to dominate magic in DDO.
    They have? I've seen more Bladeforged melees lately, but Forged casters don't seem as common as in the past. Sun Elf is the new black, isn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    1. Lore. It is not brought up often, but I think a large number of players choose DDO over other MMORPG because it is loyal to its D&D inspiration.

    Warforged are NOT meant to be wizards, but fighters.
    I think your understanding of lore is off. Lore doesn't much say what you CAN or CAN'T be, just what's more common. For example, Dwarven Wizards are not non-existent or disallowed. Same with the Forged. Meanwhile, we are the Player Characters. We can be the unusual exceptions that go beyond what lore says is typical.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    2. Balance.
    I think you're living in the past. WF casters were all the rage to complain about a couple years ago. Shouldn't you be complaining about Shiradi or Monkchers instead? Because, really, I don't see any big balance issue with Forged casters right now. And I don't play either a Forged or an arcane, either.

    Maybe you can point out some conspicuous examples of how they're so much better than everyone else?

  13. #53
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxarhamar View Post
    Wow what world do you live in?

    Ever heard of Piano lessons Guitar lessens?

    You sure as can learn Musical ability your not going to learn to be a musical genius but, almost anyone who puts a little effort into it sure could learn to play a few tunes.
    Funny how people keep coming back to this argument.

    How many times do I have to say it? I'm NOT talking about someone {anyone} learning to play a few tunes!

    I'm talking about a BARD!

    You know - That class in D&D that performs feats of magic just by playing his instrument, singing or whistling!

    I'm talking about the best of the best!

    And yes - even they have to train but the difference is that you will never be as good as they are no matter how much you train if you don't also have that Innate Ability!


    Hendrix taught himself to play the guitar - This is a well known fact! You don't do this if you don't have that Innate ability inside you waiting to get out!
    Mozart was a Child Prodigy!



    The difference between classes like Bard, FavSoul, Sorceror, Bard
    and classes like Fighter, Cleric, Wizard even in DDO.
    is that the former require MORE than simple Learning - They Require that spark to be there in the first place!

    Sorc and FvS are explicitly stated to be Innate and therefore should have been removed from Warforged right from the start.
    With Bard it's more implicit in that Learning alone is simply not enough - The Talent must be there in the first place!


    And who's to say that those of you who play Musical Instruments don't have that Innate talent and just needed it bringing to the fore?

    Or do you subscribe to the Politically Correct nonsense that we're all born equal? {BTW this is a completely different premise to the Equality stated by Religions which is an Equality of Soul, An Equality in the Eyes of God and NOT an Equality of Talent or of Opportunity!}
    Something that the Liberal Elite really should learn!

  14. #54
    Community Member potpurri's Avatar
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    In my opinion. I thought Dungeons and Dragons was based on the medieval ages. You know Knights, peasants, Wizards, Druids, Rangers, Rogues, Clerics, Paladins, Sorcerers. Kings and Queens and Kingdoms. CHIVALRY. And I will say it again CHIVALRY, its a code, its a way of life. Honesty and Loyalty. Things that are no longer present in todays world (Hmm and we wonder why there is so much violence, and no one respects one another.) Only a handful of people are Loyal. Look at how many people jump from guild to guild trying to get into the larger guilds for the bigger and better buffs. They are not loyal to the people (the first guild) that took them in.
    Now as far as game races go Warforged and Shadar Kai has no place in Dungeons & Dragons PERIOD. Somewhere in history some author wrote a book had a idea of a construct race, and a diseased rogue and was friends with someone at TSR and boom there you have it their in the game. Now Monks. I can see a Monk in the game but a REAL Monk. Not these half breed freaks of natures that everyone has (Monkchers). I have said this once and I have been slammed for saying it but it's not going to stop me from continuing to say it: Ranger= Bow. Fighter=Great Sword. Barbarian=Great Axe. Cleric=Mace. FVS=Long Swords. Rogue=Short Swords & Daggers. MONKS=HANDWRAPS!!! Paladin=Great Swords. Wizard=Quarter Staffs. Sorcerers=Scepters. Druids=Scimitars.
    We need to bring back the days of Chivalry, Honesty, and Loyalty.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    Funny how people keep coming back to this argument.

    How many times do I have to say it? I'm NOT talking about someone {anyone} learning to play a few tunes!

    I'm talking about a BARD!

    You know - That class in D&D that performs feats of magic just by playing his instrument, singing or whistling!

    I'm talking about the best of the best!

    And yes - even they have to train but the difference is that you will never be as good as they are no matter how much you train if you don't also have that Innate Ability!


    Hendrix taught himself to play the guitar - This is a well known fact! You don't do this if you don't have that Innate ability inside you waiting to get out!
    Mozart was a Child Prodigy!



    The difference between classes like Bard, FavSoul, Sorceror, Bard
    and classes like Fighter, Cleric, Wizard even in DDO.
    is that the former require MORE than simple Learning - They Require that spark to be there in the first place!

    Sorc and FvS are explicitly stated to be Innate and therefore should have been removed from Warforged right from the start.
    With Bard it's more implicit in that Learning alone is simply not enough - The Talent must be there in the first place!


    And who's to say that those of you who play Musical Instruments don't have that Innate talent and just needed it bringing to the fore?

    Or do you subscribe to the Politically Correct nonsense that we're all born equal? {BTW this is a completely different premise to the Equality stated by Religions which is an Equality of Soul, An Equality in the Eyes of God and NOT an Equality of Talent or of Opportunity!}
    Something that the Liberal Elite really should learn!
    I have to agree with you on the person having to have the : "innate ability" I myself am a self taught Guitarist. At age 6 I just picked up my dads guitar and just started playing. No lessons, No directions I just started playing. At around 3 weeks in I could play a full song. Now I've been playing for 32 years and all I need to do is just hear the song and I can play it note for note. Sure some people that don't have the innate ability can LEARN to play but they are a guitar player not a Guitarist. A guitar player plays what has already been written, a guitarist can do that and much much more. A Guitarist CREATES music.

  16. #56
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxarhamar View Post
    The actual fit of madness the berserker experienced was referred to as berserkergang ("going berserk"). This condition has been described as follows:

    This fury, which was called berserkergang, occurred not only in the heat of battle, but also during laborious work. Men who were thus seized performed things which otherwise seemed impossible for human power. This condition is said to have begun with shivering, chattering of the teeth, and chill in the body, and then the face swelled and changed its colour. With this was connected a great hot-headedness, which at last gave over into a great rage, under which they howled as wild animals, bit the edge of their shields, and cut down everything they met without discriminating between friend or foe. When this condition ceased, a great dulling of the mind and feebleness followed, which could last for one or several days
    No idea where you got this paragraph from but I like it.

    Just one thing though - Where does it state anything disagreeing with what I wrote?

    The "Condition" for example makes it sound more like an uncontrollable illness than any Learned ability!

    Face Swelling, Changing Colour, a great hot-headedness - Sounds very much like an Illness to me!

    Dulling of the mind and feebleness lasting for several days afterwards - This is NOT a Barbarian's Rage as shown in D&D or in DDO - This is a severe physiological and neurological illness!


    The Berserker Rage of a D&D Barbarian or Dwarven Battlerager {Dwarves being a commonplace Barbarian Archetype} is a magical ability tied to one class & race combination!
    Namely Barbarian Berserker!
    Now you can be a Dwarven Barbarian or an Elven Barbarian or even a Halfling Barbarian - The Fact however is that Barbarian itself is more a Race than a Class - Count it as a Sub-Race with it's own special benefits and hindrances.

    You don't learn to be a Barbarian - Being a Barbarian is not simply a case of being in the wild too long - It is an Inherited trait enforced by Upbringing!


    Being a Bard is not simply a case of knowing how to play a few tunes or quote a sonnet.
    It is something altogether more!

    Oh and the Bards of Celtic Lore have absolutely nothing to do with what we see in DDO {or in PnP for that matter - Not since 1st Ed. at any rate!} - That is a whole 'nother story!

  17. #57
    2016 DDO Players Council Sam1313's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by potpurri View Post
    In my opinion. I thought Dungeons and Dragons was based on the medieval ages. You know Knights, peasants, Wizards, Druids, Rangers, Rogues, Clerics, Paladins, Sorcerers. Kings and Queens and Kingdoms. CHIVALRY. And I will say it again CHIVALRY, its a code, its a way of life. Honesty and Loyalty. Things that are no longer present in todays world (Hmm and we wonder why there is so much violence, and no one respects one another.) Only a handful of people are Loyal. Look at how many people jump from guild to guild trying to get into the larger guilds for the bigger and better buffs. They are not loyal to the people (the first guild) that took them in.
    Now as far as game races go Warforged and Shadar Kai has no place in Dungeons & Dragons PERIOD. Somewhere in history some author wrote a book had a idea of a construct race, and a diseased rogue and was friends with someone at TSR and boom there you have it their in the game. Now Monks. I can see a Monk in the game but a REAL Monk. Not these half breed freaks of natures that everyone has (Monkchers). I have said this once and I have been slammed for saying it but it's not going to stop me from continuing to say it: Ranger= Bow. Fighter=Great Sword. Barbarian=Great Axe. Cleric=Mace. FVS=Long Swords. Rogue=Short Swords & Daggers. MONKS=HANDWRAPS!!! Paladin=Great Swords. Wizard=Quarter Staffs. Sorcerers=Scepters. Druids=Scimitars.
    We need to bring back the days of Chivalry, Honesty, and Loyalty.
    I would have to agree with you to some extent but not fully.

  18. #58
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by potpurri View Post
    In my opinion. I thought Dungeons and Dragons was based on the medieval ages. You know Knights, peasants, Wizards, Druids, Rangers, Rogues, Clerics, Paladins, Sorcerers. Kings and Queens and Kingdoms. CHIVALRY. And I will say it again CHIVALRY, its a code, its a way of life. Honesty and Loyalty. Things that are no longer present in todays world (Hmm and we wonder why there is so much violence, and no one respects one another.) Only a handful of people are Loyal. Look at how many people jump from guild to guild trying to get into the larger guilds for the bigger and better buffs. They are not loyal to the people (the first guild) that took them in.
    Now as far as game races go Warforged and Shadar Kai has no place in Dungeons & Dragons PERIOD. Somewhere in history some author wrote a book had a idea of a construct race, and a diseased rogue and was friends with someone at TSR and boom there you have it their in the game. Now Monks. I can see a Monk in the game but a REAL Monk. Not these half breed freaks of natures that everyone has (Monkchers). I have said this once and I have been slammed for saying it but it's not going to stop me from continuing to say it: Ranger= Bow. Fighter=Great Sword. Barbarian=Great Axe. Cleric=Mace. FVS=Long Swords. Rogue=Short Swords & Daggers. MONKS=HANDWRAPS!!! Paladin=Great Swords. Wizard=Quarter Staffs. Sorcerers=Scepters. Druids=Scimitars.
    We need to bring back the days of Chivalry, Honesty, and Loyalty.
    Monk to me = a Franciscan or a Benedictine.
    A Cistercian or a Dominican!

    NOT A NINJA!
    NOT Bruce Lee or David Carradine!

    And even I feel that reducing classes to ONE weapon and ONE weapon only is RIDICULOUS!

    LotRO does that however - Maybe you'd like it over there?

  19. #59
    Community Member Knobull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    Something that the Liberal Elite really should learn!


    God save the Queen!

    Now where's my tinfoil?

    This is a lighthearted joke post, that is all. (Part I)

  20. #60
    Community Member Knobull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    Something that the Liberal Elite really should learn!


    God save the Queen!

    Now where's my tinfoil?

    This is a lighthearted joke post, that is all. (Part II)

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