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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    I do not play ddo for the lore. I play for the complex build system with lots of options. I do not see the balance issues you do. In the game, I see a wide variety of builds, even in EE. This sounds like you are looking for a problem to push your views.
    Reliable self healing on a non divine tipically costs a twist (caccoon) and maxing umd. If umd is not a class skill, you might also need to expend an item slot.

    With the mobs these days having a good dose of armor piercing (i have been sneak a(ttacked few days ago with 125% fortification in a lvl 21 elite quest - I dream of Jeetz) getting your fortification high enough for end game ee will require 2 item slots (one item will be kinda trash), or at least a twist (brace for impact).

    Both of those are gained by going bladeforged or wf arcane. I don't see any other race providing such benefits in categorys that mean a difference between life or death - 2 twists = double epic completionist. So yeah I see a balance issue.
    NESALOMLJIVI, Thelanis

  2. #22
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uska View Post
    Disagree on rangers and bards for the forged also paladins for me they should always be lawful good humans and yeah dwarves wizards have always bugged me and yes barbs are a race and way of life shouldn't be a class
    Considering that Musical Ability in this world {the REAL one} is INNATE and cannot be Learned!

    No - Sorry - Warforged Bards is just wrong!

    And Ranger does NOT = 2 Wpn Fighter or Archer - Ranger is FAR more than just that!


    As for Paladins - I'm of the belief that ANY God/Goddess can have Paladins {Or for Nature Gods - Rangers!}
    Yes Evil Gods would not give their Blackguards the exact same {only opposite} powers as a Good God would BUT there's nothing actually stopping them from acquiring a "Militant Order" of their own.

    Now to Demi-Humans and Humanoids:

    A Paladin of Gruumsh is clearly a Hard Sell as would any Paladin of an Evil inclined race with limited intellectual capabilities.
    A Halfling or Gnome Paladin is equally difficult to countenance as neither race is especially inclined towards such a Militant class.

    However I have no issues whatsoever with either Dwarven or Elven Paladins - Both Races have their own reasons to have such a class after all:

    An Elven Paladin of Correllon Larethian or Sehanine Moonbow for example taking on the Drow.
    or
    A Dwarven Champion {A Paladin in disguise} protecting the Mines from the Goblin menace.


    And yes Half Elves can of course become Paladins {as indeed could a Half Orc if one was so inclined and able to cope with the prejudice from those in training with him or indeed his trainers themselves.}


    P.S. Taken from the Complete Book of Humanoids:

    Saurial Paladin

    A rare exception to the
    inability of nonhumans to become paladins.
    Saurials come from an alternative setting in
    which they are the equivalent of humans.
    While many of the abilities of the saurial paladin
    are like those of human paladins, the significant
    differences will be detailed here.
    Among humanoid races that are of good
    alignment, saurial paladins are respected and
    even revered. Among savage lizard man tribes
    they may viewed with awe or hostility. The
    reaction of advanced lizard man tribes will
    also vary, but to lesser extremes. The evil
    humanoid races consider saurial paladins with
    as much malevolence and loathing as they do
    human paladins.
    Requirements: Only finhead saurials can
    become saurial paladins. Finhead saurials
    adopting this kit must meet all of the requirements
    necessary to become paladins, as given
    in the Players' Handbook.
    Role: Saurial paladins are respected and
    honored members of saurial society. They are
    noble and heroic, the symbol of all that is good
    and true. While many of these holy warriors
    remain in saurial territory to help protect it
    from the evils of the world, a few decide to
    take the battle to the enemy — crusading to
    whatever locations where the forces of evil
    hold sway. Saurial paladins are humble servants
    of good, quietly doing whatever they
    have to in their personal war against evil.
    They are not braggarts or boasters (in fact,
    they are mute) and few press the tenets of
    their beliefs upon those who do not want to
    hear. However, in the presence of true evil,
    saurial paladins are quick to respond with
    whatever force is necessary, often taking bold
    chances and fighting against great odds to
    achieve their objectives.
    Weapon Proficiencies: Saurial paladins are
    not restricted in weapon use, but a sword proficiency
    must be taken at first level. See then
    section on saurials for penalties for the use of
    non-saurial weapons.

  3. #23
    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    Warforged Ranger and Druid are so wrong it's unbelievable
    Maybe they were made from a dryad's tree and have been especially, though unintentionally, attuned to nature.

  4. #24
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    To me, d&d lore is meant to be an AID to your imagination, not a crutch. There are infinite unwritten d&d books, sitting in our imaginations, and I for one can imagine any number of ways to fit WF arcanes into the d&d universe.
    There is simply NO reason to limit my play experience because it doesn't fit into yours.
    Don't like WF arcanes or WF in general? Don't play them. Balance is just as much an illusion as is 'Winning' in this game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Towrn
    ...when the worst thing that happens when you make a mistake at your job is someone complains on the internet, you probably care a little less!

  5. #25
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mutilador View Post
    ...
    I wouldn't worry too much as I learned to avoid Hella Pro long ago!

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    I agree that it is a conjecture saying that repair was not meant to be self healing. However, note that it is an arcane spell and that WF was supposed to be a melee class to start with. Hence my conjecture seems reasonable to me.

    Now, regarding balance, I think most people DO thing there is lack of balance in having self healing arcanes to the extreme of WFs. Yes, yes, everyone can sort of self heal by end game right now. But they can self heal all the way up from heroics and their self healing is more effective than a simple cocoon.

    As I said, not everyone plays this as simply a build twitching game. Some enjoy the lore of it. For those who just want to craft a fine build, I feel that the removal of the self healing ability of WF (or having WF atcane altogether) is yet another opportunity to excel at something they like. I don't think it is particularly clever to exploit this ability.

    Finally, I admit right away that this is a suggestion that tries to push my views. Removing an OP ability that does not square very well with my understanding of the lore surrounding D&D. But I am quite sure I made it clear in the first post, so its not like I have a hidden agenda.
    No race has to be any class just because it is listed as it's favored class that's actually some that has zero effect in ddo in dnd it only affected their multiclassing penalties you do seem to have a flawed view of dnd lore and especially that of Eberron


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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    To me, d&d lore is meant to be an AID to your imagination, not a crutch. There are infinite unwritten d&d books, sitting in our imaginations, and I for one can imagine any number of ways to fit WF arcanes into the d&d universe.
    There is simply NO reason to limit my play experience because it doesn't fit into yours.
    Don't like WF arcanes or WF in general? Don't play them. Balance is just as much an illusion as is 'Winning' in this game.

    I agree with this statement and I already said it a few posts earlier. However, it is obvious that the game has a lore. This lore dictates some limitations (where are the barbarian monks? And why does rage prevent casting?).

    One needs to build a coherent lore or otherwise it feels arbitrary and pointless. In the search of that coherent lore, I dont see WF being arcanes. But this is me, I guess it all comes down to the developer designing the game. He will weight his options and offer what he feels is the most successful product given the playerbase.

    And balance is NOT an illusion. It is meant to keep the game fun. Like in every single other game in the world.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    Considering that Musical Ability in this world {the REAL one} is INNATE and cannot be Learned!

    No - Sorry - Warforged Bards is just wrong!

    And Ranger does NOT = 2 Wpn Fighter or Archer - Ranger is FAR more than just that!


    As for Paladins - I'm of the belief that ANY God/Goddess can have Paladins {Or for Nature Gods - Rangers!}
    Yes Evil Gods would not give their Blackguards the exact same {only opposite} powers as a Good God would BUT there's nothing actually stopping them from acquiring a "Militant Order" of their own.

    Now to Demi-Humans and Humanoids:

    A Paladin of Gruumsh is clearly a Hard Sell as would any Paladin of an Evil inclined race with limited intellectual capabilities.
    A Halfling or Gnome Paladin is equally difficult to countenance as neither race is especially inclined towards such a Militant class.

    However I have no issues whatsoever with either Dwarven or Elven Paladins - Both Races have their own reasons to have such a class after all:

    An Elven Paladin of Correllon Larethian or Sehanine Moonbow for example taking on the Drow.
    or
    A Dwarven Champion {A Paladin in disguise} protecting the Mines from the Goblin menace.


    And yes Half Elves can of course become Paladins {as indeed could a Half Orc if one was so inclined and able to cope with the prejudice from those in training with him or indeed his trainers themselves.}


    P.S. Taken from the Complete Book of Humanoids:

    Saurial Paladin

    A rare exception to the
    inability of nonhumans to become paladins.
    Saurials come from an alternative setting in
    which they are the equivalent of humans.
    While many of the abilities of the saurial paladin
    are like those of human paladins, the significant
    differences will be detailed here.
    Among humanoid races that are of good
    alignment, saurial paladins are respected and
    even revered. Among savage lizard man tribes
    they may viewed with awe or hostility. The
    reaction of advanced lizard man tribes will
    also vary, but to lesser extremes. The evil
    humanoid races consider saurial paladins with
    as much malevolence and loathing as they do
    human paladins.
    Requirements: Only finhead saurials can
    become saurial paladins. Finhead saurials
    adopting this kit must meet all of the requirements
    necessary to become paladins, as given
    in the Players' Handbook.
    Role: Saurial paladins are respected and
    honored members of saurial society. They are
    noble and heroic, the symbol of all that is good
    and true. While many of these holy warriors
    remain in saurial territory to help protect it
    from the evils of the world, a few decide to
    take the battle to the enemy — crusading to
    whatever locations where the forces of evil
    hold sway. Saurial paladins are humble servants
    of good, quietly doing whatever they
    have to in their personal war against evil.
    They are not braggarts or boasters (in fact,
    they are mute) and few press the tenets of
    their beliefs upon those who do not want to
    hear. However, in the presence of true evil,
    saurial paladins are quick to respond with
    whatever force is necessary, often taking bold
    chances and fighting against great odds to
    achieve their objectives.
    Weapon Proficiencies: Saurial paladins are
    not restricted in weapon use, but a sword proficiency
    must be taken at first level. See then
    section on saurials for penalties for the use of
    non-saurial weapons.

    Completely and utterly wrong on musical ability it is learned and not innate most people can't not pick up a instrument and play it so it's not innate I had to work really hard to learn to play the tub and guitar and in fact since I haven't practiced in decades I doubt I could still play the tuba. I can see we will never agree so I will leave it at that


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  9. #29
    Community Member enochiancub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uska View Post
    Completely and utterly wrong on musical ability it is learned and not innate most people can't not pick up a instrument and play it so it's not innate I had to work really hard to learn to play the tub and guitar and in fact since I haven't practiced in decades I doubt I could still play the tuba. I can see we will never agree so I will leave it at that
    I wish I had innately known how to play the violin! Would have saved me many many years of dedication and frustrating practice. Heh.

    Main: 18 Artificer, Thelanis

  10. #30
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    And balance is NOT an illusion. It is meant to keep the game fun. Like in every single other game in the world.
    100% incorrect... well, 99.99999% incorrect: The only game in the world that is balanced is Roshambo. Anything even remotely more complicated than rock paper scissors is inherently unbalanced. The trick is to make the scales tip in your favour.
    Quote Originally Posted by Towrn
    ...when the worst thing that happens when you make a mistake at your job is someone complains on the internet, you probably care a little less!

  11. #31
    Community Member mutilador's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    I wouldn't worry too much as I learned to avoid Hella Pro long ago!
    I wish i could avoid to read all the nonsense that you toss on the forum.

  12. #32
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    Secondly: How exactly does one "learn" how to Rage like a Berserker? This is an INNATE ability!
    *rings a bell and waits for Fran to start drooling*

  13. #33
    Community Member johnnyputrid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    Considering that Musical Ability in this world {the REAL one} is INNATE and cannot be Learned!

    No - Sorry - Warforged Bards is just wrong!
    Where are you coming up with this? I first started playing guitar and bass 24 years ago and I am still learning. You never stop growing as a musician and even a virtuoso can still find new things to do with his/her chosen instrument. Musical ability can indeed be learned and I would argue that the vast majority of musicians in the world would agree that they had to learn to play. There are a few ridiculously talented musicians out there who are naturally gifted and can play whatever pops into their heads, but these are the exception. Everyone else needs to practice, play, practice, play and practice some more.

    So there is simply no 'lore' reason why a living construct with feelings and emotions can't pick up a lute or a harp and learn to walk the path of the bard, which involves more than just musical ability.

    Same thing with barbarians. DDO is based on 3.5, where barbarian is indeed a class and not a race. Warforged have emotions, so therefore they have anger that they can channel to use in combat. No reason why a warforged couldn't have retreated into the wilderness after the Last War and become barbaric in nature. Or swear a druidic oath. Or decided to learn the ranger's ways.

  14. #34
    Community Member Veriden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    Due to their capacity to heal with magic, Toasters / Lego men have come to dominate magic in DDO.

    This, imho, is bad for a variety of reasons.

    1. Lore. It is not brought up often, but I think a large number of players choose DDO over other MMORPG because it is loyal to its D&D inspiration.

    Warforged are NOT meant to be wizards, but fighters.

    http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Warforged


    2. Balance. Arcane casters have the best offensive capacity of the game. Balance comes from the fact that they are NOT as resilient as fighters or divine casters (and of course SP management, but this is another matter). A Toaster is a selfish cleric and an arcane at the same time and this breaks balance.


    I am aware that some players will shout that there are enough nerfs coming our way as it is, or that they find it funny to have a caster robot, or that they have already invested a lot of time in their Toasters of Vengeance. To me, those are not valid reasons to keep something that doesn't work on the two most important fronts of the game: balance and lore. Compensations could be handed to mitigate the pain of the adjustment.

    I agree with this entirely. They should lock out anything with a blue or yellow bar from war forged. The reason being that they are constructs and should never get more than spell like abilities for x/day. They're made of metal, wood, and stone. Like the players who love them, they are soulless.
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    So, people having different views of what the lore of the WF is and what they should / not be able to do. I guess there is no surprise there. It is very simply a matter of taste and we can already see NO consensus will ever be reached. At most this is poll material, IMHO, so I don't really see the point of keeping the discussion here seeing the path it has taken.

    Now, an arcane with extreme self healing capacity from very early on is an issue of balance. I don't see many people arguing that it is balanced. At most I see people arguing that not every single player is rolling WF casters. Which for me, speaks nothing to the fact of whether it is balanced or not.

    But I would be very curious to know what those who argue IS balanced have to say (I don't count saying "balance is an illusion" as a meaningful comment in this discussion).

  16. #36
    Community Member thakorian's Avatar
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    Why don't you PnP enthusiasts stick to your own groups instead of trying to make everyone else play the game as you see it is supposed to be played? Okay? Happiness for everyone.

    It just seems to me that you want to exert control over others. You can go on roleplaying in your little groups, but don't pull us serious gamers into that puddle.
    'Too many people have opinions on things they know nothing about.
    And the more ignorant they are, the more opinions they have.'
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  17. #37
    Community Member Tscheuss's Avatar
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    There was a conflict where many sorcerers were killed. Their bodies were later laid to rest in the earth. The trees that grew from that earth absorbed the essence of the sorcerers as they did the water and the nutrients of the earth, and they grew tall and strong.

    Hundreds of years later, many of these trees were harvested to be used in the creation of Warforged. The wood from these trees imbued the Warforged with an innate affinity for the arcane.

    There you have it—a basis for WF sorcs that fits within D&D lore.
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  18. #38
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyputrid View Post
    Where are you coming up with this?
    Being Tone Deaf probably has something to do with it.

    Mozart, Beethoven, Hendrix - These are the real life equivalents of Bards in DDO.

    If you want to talk about Poets or Artists - Again these are not Learned abilities - They are Innate and all a teacher can do is bring out what is already there.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyputrid View Post
    So there is simply no 'lore' reason why a living construct with feelings and emotions can't pick up a lute or a harp and learn to walk the path of the bard, which involves more than just musical ability.
    Picking up and learning to play a musical instrument is one thing.
    A Bard is something completely different!

    This was accepted in D&D with Musical Instrument being a Proficiency that anyone could take BUT ONLY Bards get to do all that special stuff with it!

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyputrid View Post
    Warforged have emotions, so therefore they have anger that they can channel to use in combat.
    Absolute rot!

    You don't learn to channel Anger - You hold it in and hold it in and hold it in until it bursts!

  19. #39
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    There was a conflict where many sorcerers were killed. Their bodies were later laid to rest in the earth. The trees that grew from that earth absorbed the essence of the sorcerers as they did the water and the nutrients of the earth, and they grew tall and strong.

    Hundreds of years later, many of these trees were harvested to be used in the creation of Warforged. The wood from these trees imbued the Warforged with an innate affinity for the arcane.

    There you have it—a basis for WF sorcs that fits within D&D lore.
    Wow - House Cannith cut down the Amazon Rainforest!!!

    Something else to blame them for.

  20. #40
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    If you want to talk about Poets or Artists - Again these are not Learned abilities - They are Innate and all a teacher can do is bring out what is already there.
    *sigh* You are confusing "average" with "legendary".

    Not all "_____________" are built and stated equally.

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