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  1. #1
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    Default Enough Magic Toasters - Lack of balance and lore perversion

    Due to their capacity to heal with magic, Toasters / Lego men have come to dominate magic in DDO.

    This, imho, is bad for a variety of reasons.

    1. Lore. It is not brought up often, but I think a large number of players choose DDO over other MMORPG because it is loyal to its D&D inspiration.

    Warforged are NOT meant to be wizards, but fighters.

    http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Warforged


    2. Balance. Arcane casters have the best offensive capacity of the game. Balance comes from the fact that they are NOT as resilient as fighters or divine casters (and of course SP management, but this is another matter). A Toaster is a selfish cleric and an arcane at the same time and this breaks balance.


    I am aware that some players will shout that there are enough nerfs coming our way as it is, or that they find it funny to have a caster robot, or that they have already invested a lot of time in their Toasters of Vengeance. To me, those are not valid reasons to keep something that doesn't work on the two most important fronts of the game: balance and lore. Compensations could be handed to mitigate the pain of the adjustment.

  2. #2
    Founder & Hero Uska's Avatar
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    Nothing in Eberron lore against the forged being wizards yes favored is fighter but that means nothing and a wizard is an awesome thing to behold in war especially one that would be able to heal themselves and never need to sleep

    If you did any real Eberron research you find forged in all area so lore point isn't.

    Wizards have never been really balanced in dnd and to try and do what you want would remake the game. WOTC tried that with 4E it failed and so would your idea.
    Last edited by Uska; 03-16-2014 at 11:46 AM.

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  3. #3
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    There's been a number of us advocating for Warforged to be Boosted in the realms of Melee while having their dominance of the Arcane challenged for years now.

    The Devs have tried a couple of things:

    1) Bladeforged was clearly intended to put the WF Paladin back on the map but proved to be a bigger draw for Sorcs and FavSouls.

    2) Warforged Immunites were Unjustly Nerfed into Oblivion - A Much bigger Nerf to Melees than to Casters btw!

    3) Stalwart Defender/Defender of Siberys were Nerfed into requiring a Shield - Taking away the WF Melee's biggest advantage - Greatswords!


    There is one thing and ONLY one thing the Devs could do to Truly "Balance" WF Arcanes - And yes I get pilloried for this suggestion every single time I make it {won't stop me making it again though!}...

    REMOVE RECONSTRUCT FROM THE GAME!!!!!


    On the other hand - to boost WF Melees - Particularly the oft maligned on these forums and in-game Paladin!

    1) Allow the Lord of Blades to confer Full Heal amp on his Paladins from Lvl 1! {With Adamantine Body!}

    2) Allow WF {and Bladeforged} Paladins to maintain full use of Defender of Siberys while wielding a Greatsword!

    3) Give us the Warforged Scout Body Type!
    Can be Cosmetic only if you want!
    7 ft tall WF Rogues and Artis just look WORNG!

    And specifically to remove the Reliance on the WF/BF Races for Artificers:

    4) Change Construct Essence to Alchemical Healing and allow FULL Healing to FLESHY Artis via this feat:
    Fleshy Artis would thus be able to take Alchemical Healing feat to use their Repair Spells to Heal themselves {Full Healing} whilst remaining fully healable by Clerics/Druids/FvSs etc.

    WF/BF Artis on the other hand would still be able to heal themselves with Arti Repair Spells {though not reconstruct!} just would have the standard penalty to Divine Healing.

  4. #4
    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
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    They should be able to become wizards, that's just a matter of learning how to wield magic.

    Sorcerers on the other hand have innate magical abilities from being descendants of dragons or demons, angels, whatever. It doesn't make sense for a wf to be a sorc. At least, I don't know how it could make sense.

  5. #5
    Community Member Caliban's Avatar
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    While warforged were originally created as a slave army and have fighter as a favored class, it is also lore that they have the capacity to learn new skills and abilities like any other intelligent race (and warforged are living - specifically "Living Constructs")

    In the Eberron campaign materials there are feats and classes specifically to support Arcane [Unarmored Body feat - races of Eberron], Druidic [Ironwood Body feat - Races of Eberron], and even Psionic warforged [Psiforged Body - Magic of Eberron].

    DDO goes about it a little differently, but their existence isl well within the spirit of the Lore.

    Now, my Dwarven Lich Palemaster is a bit harder to justify, but since he's undead he no longer has the capacity to care about it.

  6. #6
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnbeimnech View Post
    They should be able to become wizards, that's just a matter of learning how to wield magic.

    Sorcerers on the other hand have innate magical abilities from being descendants of dragons or demons, angels, whatever. It doesn't make sense for a wf to be a sorc. At least, I don't know how it could make sense.
    This is one of my Pet Peeves with every version of D&D after AD&D 2nd Ed.

    The Everything is available to Everyone PC argument won!


    Warforged Sorceror is a contradiction in terms.
    Warforged Favoured Soul and Warforged Bard are just as bad.
    Warforged Ranger and Druid are so wrong it's unbelievable!
    Warforged Barbarian? Really? First of all: Barbarian is a Race NOT a Class!
    Secondly: How exactly does one "learn" how to Rage like a Berserker? This is an INNATE ability!
    Thirdly and I know I'm basically repeating myself but it has to be said: You're BORN a Barbarian! You CANNOT learn to become one!

    Classes that should be available to Warforged:

    PALADIN {Lord of Blades, Silver Flame and Sov Host should all be available}
    Fighter
    Cleric {of the Lord of Blades obviously OR of the Silver Flame/Sov Host as that's who your creators worshipped!}
    Rogue {Warforged Scout model - Mechanic only}
    Artificer {Warforged Scout model - Battle Engineer only}
    Wizard {Warforged Scout model - Archmage or Eldritch Knight NOT PM!}



    P.S. Dwarven Wizards are an abomination!

  7. #7
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnbeimnech View Post
    They should be able to become wizards, that's just a matter of learning how to wield magic.

    Sorcerers on the other hand have innate magical abilities from being descendants of dragons or demons, angels, whatever. It doesn't make sense for a wf to be a sorc. At least, I don't know how it could make sense.
    No they aren't.
    Players are allowed to RP source of their sorcerer magics as they wish, draconic/extraplanar heritage is one of options.

  8. #8
    Community Member enochiancub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    No they aren't.
    Players are allowed to RP source of their sorcerer magics as they wish, draconic/extraplanar heritage is one of options.
    To be fair, in the 3.5 version, (which is what this game is based on) sorcerer magic was innate. You're describing the horrible 4th edition version of sorcs.

    Sadly though the majority of players don't care about the lore at all. There have been plenty of complaint threads on how lore is stupid or should be ignored completely.
    Last edited by enochiancub; 03-16-2014 at 12:56 PM.

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  9. #9
    Founder & Hero Uska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    This is one of my Pet Peeves with every version of D&D after AD&D 2nd Ed.

    The Everything is available to Everyone PC argument won!


    Warforged Sorceror is a contradiction in terms.
    Warforged Favoured Soul and Warforged Bard are just as bad.
    Warforged Ranger and Druid are so wrong it's unbelievable!
    Warforged Barbarian? Really? First of all: Barbarian is a Race NOT a Class!
    Secondly: How exactly does one "learn" how to Rage like a Berserker? This is an INNATE ability!
    Thirdly and I know I'm basically repeating myself but it has to be said: You're BORN a Barbarian! You CANNOT learn to become one!

    Classes that should be available to Warforged:

    PALADIN {Lord of Blades, Silver Flame and Sov Host should all be available}
    Fighter
    Cleric {of the Lord of Blades obviously OR of the Silver Flame/Sov Host as that's who your creators worshipped!}
    Rogue {Warforged Scout model - Mechanic only}
    Artificer {Warforged Scout model - Battle Engineer only}
    Wizard {Warforged Scout model - Archmage or Eldritch Knight NOT PM!}



    P.S. Dwarven Wizards are an abomination!
    Disagree on rangers and bards for the forged also paladins for me they should always be lawful good humans and yeah dwarves wizards have always bugged me and yes barbs are a race and way of life shouldn't be a class

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  10. #10
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    I see two sides of this.

    1. Lore wise it is a stretch to have them. Sure, in RP everything is possible. But at some point there needs to be some consensus on lore. In my case, I do NOT support them.

    2. Balance wise RECONSTRUCT needs to go. There is simply no way it can be balanced, for the reasons exposed above. Or it should be a spell you can only cast ON OTHERS.


    Now some people do not care about lore. I feel turbine should tailor towards those who do. Simply because powergamers will do whatever you allow them to do without any remorse nor special joy over it.

    And yes, I do have a WF sorcerer. Just because I care doesn't mean I want everyone else to be just better than me at questing.

  11. #11
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    Every Epic melee can self heal now. One word. Cocoon. So WF is not the only joke for self healing. Cocoon and Reconstruct Hp healing is overpowered and should be cut in half. PM can self heal with negative energy, but I found that to be balanced and not overdone. A PM can not keep up with a lot of incoming damage at least in heroic content.

    I would still love Cocoon if it did half the healing it does. It would still top someone off to full over a short period of time even if they took 500 damage. Saves me mana. For my Melee Cleric it takes the stress off cause it heals through walls. I do like that part the most about it cause melees running around obstacles with a total disregard for line of sight ****es me off when I waste a heal spell. Not so much with Cocoon now. That is the real advantage for me as a divine healer.

    I don't mind some of the self healing, but I think it is over done. It does allow my melee cleric to swing his ax more for 3500 damage on a critical, lol. If not he would be too boring.
    Last edited by firemedium_jt; 03-16-2014 at 12:37 PM.
    Your lack of healing amp not my problem. Please buy and use your own remove curse pots in combat, so I don't waste mana. Not my job.

  12. #12
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post

    There is one thing and ONLY one thing the Devs could do to Truly "Balance" WF Arcanes - And yes I get pilloried for this suggestion every single time I make it {won't stop me making it again though!}...

    REMOVE RECONSTRUCT FROM THE GAME!!!!!

    WF/BF Artis on the other hand would still be able to heal themselves with Arti Repair Spells {though not reconstruct!} just would have the standard penalty to Divine Healing.
    Removing Reconstruct from the game would still greatly favor casters as WF since they would have the Meta Magics too boost the lower repair spells to useable levels.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    Secondly: How exactly does one "learn" how to Rage like a Berserker? This is an INNATE ability!
    Reverse anger management?

    If one can learn to add constraints I guess one can learn to remove them as well.

    btw. /signed on removal of reconstruct
    NESALOMLJIVI, Thelanis

  14. #14
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    Well, I think removing the ability to SELF heal with repair spells would do it, balance wise. You may target someone else, just not yourself. I think that was the original intention of the spell anyway.

  15. #15
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    my TR is currently a pure BF paladin and unless im doing it wrong, reconstruct is not as powerful as you guys are making it out to be. reconstruct for casters. sure I guess, but not for melees. so watch the sudden cry for nerf to reconstruct or we will probably lose more than we really want in the name of balance.

  16. #16
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    I have never been a fan of the warforge race. Unfortunately this game was designed around Ebberron which has warforged which is too bad. The whole future techo stuff has no place in D&D in my opinion. Warforge in DDO have an inherent advantage for the arcane class due to self healing that is just too hard for races like elves to make up for. The elves favored class in D&D is the wizard, but you would not know it playing this game.
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  17. #17
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    Well, I think removing the ability to SELF heal with repair spells would do it, balance wise. You may target someone else, just not yourself. I think that was the original intention of the spell anyway.
    complete conjecture here no where in any of the Rulebooks can you find repair spells as unable to self target.

  18. #18
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    I do not play ddo for the lore. I play for the complex build system with lots of options. I do not see the balance issues you do. In the game, I see a wide variety of builds, even in EE. This sounds like you are looking for a problem to push your views.

  19. #19
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    I do not play ddo for the lore. I play for the complex build system with lots of options. I do not see the balance issues you do. In the game, I see a wide variety of builds, even in EE. This sounds like you are looking for a problem to push your views.
    absolutely

    I run with the following in party in EE just about every day

    Human Sorc in Draconic ED

    Warforged Pale Masters (can't repair undead)

    Halfling Artificers

    PDK bards

    so really I think OP is just racist against WF

  20. #20
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    I agree that it is a conjecture saying that repair was not meant to be self healing. However, note that it is an arcane spell and that WF was supposed to be a melee class to start with. Hence my conjecture seems reasonable to me.

    Now, regarding balance, I think most people DO thing there is lack of balance in having self healing arcanes to the extreme of WFs. Yes, yes, everyone can sort of self heal by end game right now. But they can self heal all the way up from heroics and their self healing is more effective than a simple cocoon.

    As I said, not everyone plays this as simply a build twitching game. Some enjoy the lore of it. For those who just want to craft a fine build, I feel that the removal of the self healing ability of WF (or having WF atcane altogether) is yet another opportunity to excel at something they like. I don't think it is particularly clever to exploit this ability.

    Finally, I admit right away that this is a suggestion that tries to push my views. Removing an OP ability that does not square very well with my understanding of the lore surrounding D&D. But I am quite sure I made it clear in the first post, so its not like I have a hidden agenda.

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