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  1. #1
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Default Get rid of stat bonuses in EDs

    Remove all of the +1 to X stat enhancements in EDs. Lower save DCs in 20+ content by 2 or 3 points.

    Replace that now empty column with new abilities that are interesting, particularly for the caster destinies that were essentially +6 in X stat, spend 12 points on other stuff.
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  2. #2
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    Agreed 100%.

    You could probably do the same with heroic enhancements, as well. They're not as issue in heroic levels, where a point or two on your DCs is significant but not required, but when you get to the higher levels they become exactly the same as ED stat boosts. Chop off another couple from the max DCs there.

    Make augments stop stacking with everything. I don't know why that change was made in the first place. Instead have them add to an item's Spell Focus bonus, or give it one if it doesn't already have one. Then make Spell Focus from items and feats no longer stack, with a buff to the feats to make taking all 3 of them a viable alternative to using a single item (give them a total bonus of 4 or 5 when all three are taken). That's another couple off the max DCs.

    Add in new enhancements, items, and feats to fill in the voids created by these changes.

    The less bonuses that all stack, the better. We don't need another situation like old AC, where we had armor, dexterity, wisdom, natural, luck, shield, deflection, insight, miscellaneous, dodge, race, action boost, and all the ones with the same name that also stacked.

  3. #3
    The Hatchery kierg10's Avatar
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    /signed but only if they lower DCs in EEs a few
    Ckarlock Alarm (PDK bard 7 fighter 6 rogue 2) life 17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Memnir View Post
    What I think is OP is anyone who uses implemented game mechanics, standard game features, or their own skill to be more effective in quests then I am - so I then find the time to post complaints about their use of implemented game mechanics, standard game features, or their own skill thus making me OP on the forums.
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    Here's a new flash for the people who have not evolved and still play sponge toons: you serve no purpose. it's rude, but it's the truth. Divines are powerful, have been for a long time. They don't need you. If you need them you add no value to the group.

  4. #4
    Community Member count_spicoli's Avatar
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    No just no. If you want a dumb wizzy or weak barb that's up to you but don't make us all have that. Its fine the way it is.

  5. #5
    Community Member DrawingGuy's Avatar
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    It's just people that want to have their DCs useable without having to sacrifice abilities to gain stat bonuses. Now if an ED is such that you don't want anything in the tree, so you just +6 the stat, then that's one thing (Magister could use some love), but for the rest it just would be a MASSIVE power climb. My Sorc can get his damage with automatically useful saves while getting everything I want in Draconic or Shiradi? *bliss* My monk (especially after the upcoming nerf) can get his QP useful without having to sacrifice saves for WIS? *win*

    No, I like the DC/vs ability choice on us now. We don't need the power climb of dropping these stats and lowering monster saves so you can have useful DCs while getting all the abilities you want.

  6. #6
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrawingGuy View Post
    It's just people that want to have their DCs useable without having to sacrifice abilities to gain stat bonuses. Now if an ED is such that you don't want anything in the tree, so you just +6 the stat, then that's one thing (Magister could use some love), but for the rest it just would be a MASSIVE power climb. My Sorc can get his damage with automatically useful saves while getting everything I want in Draconic or Shiradi? *bliss* My monk (especially after the upcoming nerf) can get his QP useful without having to sacrifice saves for WIS? *win*

    No, I like the DC/vs ability choice on us now. We don't need the power climb of dropping these stats and lowering monster saves so you can have useful DCs while getting all the abilities you want.
    I don't think the climb in power would be that drastic. Looking at the trees, those 12 points would mostly represent diversification of power, not increases of power: better saves (kind of an increase), and additional abilities that don't necessarily "stack" with the rest of what you're doing. In the event that that's a concern, the trees could get reconfigured a little, and remember that I also propose those stat spots get filled in with new abilities--well, if they're attractive, but not stacking power, that can help avert any disaster in that direction.

    It's not just a desire to not want to have to sacrifice abilities to gain stat bonuses (at least not in that, "I want more!" phrasing), but a desire to not have to sink so much of my character's development into rather dull, linear increases in power, when it would be far more interesting to work with new, varied abilities. Look at it this way: how exciting is it to go from a +1 longsword to a +2 longsword? Even a +1 longsword to a +5 longsword? Sure, you land your hits more often, and you do some more damage, which is always good, but is it interesting? Do you get excited about it? Even though a +1 flaming longsword is statistically weaker than a +5 sword, it's more interesting. Sure, D&D 3.5 is built upon the Christmas Tree of the Big 6 of weapon enhancement, armor enhancement, deflection bonus, resistance bonus to saves, and ability score enhancement. But that's dull. If you read the message boards from 3.5, or those for Pathfinder on the Paizo forums (basically D&D 3.75), you'll find dozens and dozens of threads lamenting this, and seeking for a way around it, with all sorts of systems designed to not tie character development and power to something so boring, and so mandatory.

    I feel the same way about the ability score enhancements (via AP) and abilities (in Epic Destinies) as numerous players feel about the Christmas Tree effect in the pen & paper counterpart. It's the least interesting way to advance and develop your character.
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  7. #7
    Community Member SilkofDrasnia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    Remove all of the +1 to X stat enhancements in EDs. Lower save DCs in 20+ content by 2 or 3 points.

    Replace that now empty column with new abilities that are interesting, particularly for the caster destinies that were essentially +6 in X stat, spend 12 points on other stuff.
    No, this is only good to people that are not off destiny farming, you lose potentially +6 to a stats or +3 to a DC but then you have them lower mobs saves by that so essentially we would be getting 6 potential new abilities but without losing the + 6 (+3 DC) stat we can get.

    I'll say it another way in case I am not being clear those +6 stats cost us something, abilities we could use elsewhere in the tree. Your change lets us have the +6 stats effect but allows us to save all those ED points we put in the tree so we could put them elsewhere, we lose nothing but gain so much more.

    This would be great for when your in your main destiny but sucks badly for everyone off destiny farming. More often than not when off destiny farming there's nothing great in the trees or not much that is good so we can use those stats point.

    For example a barbarian in fatesinger you take the points in str and w/e else you feel will be helpful to you. There's quite a few EDs like this where off farming only has stats points that are mildly interesting.
    Last edited by SilkofDrasnia; 03-10-2014 at 02:54 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    Insulting the development team is not allowed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jendrak
    Somebody should definitely explain to Turbine that when they roll up a new GM that INT is not dump stat.

  8. #8
    Community Member Satyriasys's Avatar
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    They should have probably have been designed differently. A Pale Master for instance if pretty much forced to take all int in their destiny. Magister is an extremely poor destiny anyway and the Sigils need an extreme buff. Even then a DC caster could not forgo their int for anything else they may want in the tree. Including stats in there was a mistake but too late I fear to change it.
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  9. #9
    Community Member SilkofDrasnia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satyriasys View Post
    They should have probably have been designed differently. A Pale Master for instance if pretty much forced to take all int in their destiny. Magister is an extremely poor destiny anyway and the Sigils need an extreme buff. Even then a DC caster could not forgo their int for anything else they may want in the tree. Including stats in there was a mistake but too late I fear to change it.
    The problem is the stupid high DC you need for EE that is all. Just lower it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    Insulting the development team is not allowed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jendrak
    Somebody should definitely explain to Turbine that when they roll up a new GM that INT is not dump stat.

  10. #10
    Community Member Satyriasys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkofDrasnia View Post
    The problem is the stupid high DC you need for EE that is all. Just lower it.
    Then EE would be too easy if you could just finger everything. If you don't like the challenge of EE that's what en and eh are for.
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  11. #11
    Community Member SilkofDrasnia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satyriasys View Post
    Then EE would be too easy if you could just finger everything. If you don't like the challenge of EE that's what en and eh are for.
    Instead of making personal assumption realize this whole thread is really about EE and dc caster especially PM dc caster needing to take +6 int in ED and ways to lower that.

    Instead of convoluted fixes that mean an easier EE experience just lower DC required for EE.


    Have a nice day!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    Insulting the development team is not allowed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jendrak
    Somebody should definitely explain to Turbine that when they roll up a new GM that INT is not dump stat.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    Remove all of the +1 to X stat enhancements in EDs. Lower save DCs in 20+ content by 2 or 3 points.

    Replace that now empty column with new abilities that are interesting, particularly for the caster destinies that were essentially +6 in X stat, spend 12 points on other stuff.
    Hi,

    To rephrase this, please allow casters to remain as effective as they are now at DC casting, and give them even more power on top of what they already have. Oh, and allow casters who haven't bothered to specialise in DC casting to become as strong or nearly as strong as specialist casters are now at DC casting.

    No thanks. I don't see DC casters as any sort of struggling underclass, who need help to become viable in the current game. Why on earth do they need to be made more powerful? Sorry, perhaps I've misunderstood, it's only to make them more interesting, right, with the happy side effect of an increase in power too.

    There are only a handful of quests in EE endgame now right now where a strong DC caster isn't godlike, and they can still be very effective in those quests, just not completely and effortlessly dominant.

    If anything, instakill based casting needs to be made less powerful in the vast majority of the game. My preferred approach would be that the cooldowns on the various instakill spells and SLAs be increased substantially.

    It is also nice to have the option in our EDs to boost certain stats if you are not a caster, which I wouldn't like to see be taken away. You seem to be looking at this only from the perspective of a caster, but the change you are recommending would affect other builds too.

    Thanks.
    Astrican on Khyber

  13. #13
    The Hatchery Scraap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blerkington View Post
    It is also nice to have the option in our EDs to boost certain stats if you are not a caster, which I wouldn't like to see be taken away. You seem to be looking at this only from the perspective of a caster, but the change you are recommending would affect other builds too.
    15% additional failure rate from a maxed vs non-maxed stat can also apply to:

    Stunning Blow.
    Stunning Fist.
    Trip and Improved Trip.
    Quivering Palm.
    Assasinate.
    Facinate.
    Intimidate.
    Bluff.
    Diplomacy.
    Open Lock.
    Search.
    Disable Device.
    Saves.

    Should I keep going, or are folks going to insist on trying to turn it into all about casters, regardless?

  14. #14
    Community Member SilkofDrasnia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scraap View Post
    15% additional failure rate from a maxed vs non-maxed stat can also apply to:

    Stunning Blow.
    Stunning Fist.
    Trip and Improved Trip.
    Quivering Palm.
    Assasinate.
    Facinate.
    Intimidate.
    Bluff.
    Diplomacy.
    Open Lock.
    Search.
    Disable Device.
    Saves.

    Should I keep going, or are folks going to insist on trying to turn it into all about casters, regardless?
    Your missing the point all those have main trees in which they can already get +6 to the stat which they work off so you can get this already but if your in an off destiny on your sin getting it in a tree that does nothing really for it wont make it OP get it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    Insulting the development team is not allowed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jendrak
    Somebody should definitely explain to Turbine that when they roll up a new GM that INT is not dump stat.

  15. #15
    The Hatchery Scraap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkofDrasnia View Post
    Your missing the point all those have main trees in which they can already get +6 to the stat which they work off so you can get this already but if your in an off destiny on your sin getting it in a tree that does nothing really for it wont make it OP get it?
    No, Silk. The point is *everybody* gets bent over in an off destiny when the Devs have to account for that additional 6 points.

  16. #16
    Community Member SilkofDrasnia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scraap View Post
    No, Silk. The point is *everybody* gets bent over in an off destiny when the Devs have to account for that additional 6 points.
    No, the point is we all get a little less bent if this is allowed as it doesn't really add that much power when your in an off destiny compared to when IN your main one in which this is already available.

    Why would the devs have to account for those 6 points in off destinies? Like I said it doesn't really add that much to your power. lol

    The OP suggestions on the other hand is a huge boost to your power but only if your in your main destiny to the detriment of you being in a off destiny.
    Last edited by SilkofDrasnia; 03-11-2014 at 06:02 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    Insulting the development team is not allowed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jendrak
    Somebody should definitely explain to Turbine that when they roll up a new GM that INT is not dump stat.

  17. #17
    Community Member DrawingGuy's Avatar
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    If the concern is off destinies, then the suggestion I made of opening up stat selection would fix that. If this is about be able to choose abilities without having to sacrifice for DCs, as I said, that is a flat power increase. Yes, most of us would prefer to get abilities rather than dropping them in stat points... but that's the whole point: it's a give and take. Some people will take abilities, some will take stats to boost their DCs. You start taking away the variance that people can have in DCs (such as from EDs and Enhancements), then everyone becomes the same. People just grab the most powerful abilities and gear and all smack away the same. I like the choice existing.

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