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  1. #201
    Community Member superdupe6934's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bennyson View Post
    Destines are not classes, if they were then explain why you can have a Barbarian Magister (worse combination of all)

    Also, Divine Crusader is technically based on Cleric Warpriests, that's why the smiting line in US wasn't moved there and for good reason. Also, DC is like Fire themed, having one ability deal a different type of damage wouldn't match the theme of DC at all.

    Tanks need high threat generation with good enough attacks and high Intim. Your asking for the removal of the few remaining sources of damage in US to help tanks with their aggro holding skills. It is a very, very bad idea of what your asking.
    Then why bother calling this a melee DPS tree if the focus is supposed to be for a primarily caster based class? It's like a bad joke.

  2. #202
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    Default Comments on Divine Crusader Changes

    I will go over abilities by tier followed by end remarks on the tree as a whole. Abilities not mentioned are fine as they are.

    Innate Abilities:
    Sword of Justice: Nice to see this in innate, now it's not longer a go-to twist for dps builds, gives more options for other twists when using other destinies, as well as giving a unique +6 dmg dps boost for this destiny.

    Wrath of Righteousness: I agree with other posters that this new version is definitely less fun but we do need to remember that it's NOT the epic moment in this changed destiny tree. However, this destiny seems to lack a true epic moment. More on this in the end remarks.

    Tier 1:
    Bane of Undeath + Endless Turning: How good these two abilities are depends on what you can utilize those turns for. If you are using these just to power Confront Any Foe, these seem to be fairly weak abilities (see Confront Any Foe). Other players may take/twist Bane of Undeath or both to power Divine Might on a <4 paladin splash which makes the turns nice on their own too.

    Tier 2:
    Confront Any Foe: Seems like a fairly weak ability, powered by limited turns with an average of +55 light damage per hit on use. Combined with the slower attack animation it doesn't seem like a very worthwhile ability.
    Suggestions? One suggestion I liked was posted by sephiroth1084 which makes Confront Any Foe into an ability like Divine Sacrifice, an incredibly fun ability to use/have. Here is my modified version of his suggestion.

    Toggle: Confront Any Foe. 10d10 light damage on next attack. -5hp, -1sp on attack (cannot use if less than 6 hp/1 sp). Cooldown, 5 seconds. Requirements: Turn Undead. (Does not expend a turn on use. Does not use it's own animation or interrupt the attack chain.)

    Notes: This makes it a viable option for dps as well as a viable twist for any player with turn undead. It should give ~18-22 dps, ~36 for full twf w/ doublestrike. (regular attacks, 15% attack speed bonus from haste. Calculated from Vanshilar's Attack Speed Index and Formulae https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/275144)

    I suggested this as a toggle since there are already many active attack abilities in this destiny and if you are a paladin hitting Divine Sacrifice every 3 seconds as well, it could get overwhelming.

    Original suggestion by sephiroth1084 can be found here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...nfront-any-Foe).

    Consecration: Looks very nice, however the one change I would make is to have it centered on your character and move with you. As a melee you may spend time standing in one place hitting mobs that close in on you, however a lot of the time you will also be moving around, dodging attacks, chasing casters/archers, etc.

    Tier 3:
    Stand and Be Judged: Nice ability but the DC could be reworked. DC: 30+Wisdom mod. vs Will saving throw. Likely this ability will get limited use as is.

    First, as a divine melee focus most likely players will not have a high enough WIS to make this viable in EH and EE difficulties especially in the higher level quests. Paladins do not have good reasons for investing in a very high WIS, and many FvS will invest in CHA as well WIS. Therefore, an option to use CHA mod. in the DC would be good here.

    Second, the DC itself is not very effective. It starts with a high base of 30, but how many divines will have high enough WIS/CHA to make this ability land on a reliable basis? While spells targeting reflex saving throws of many non-evasion mobs will work in DC 40-50s, mob will and fortitude saving throws require 50-60s to land on a reliable basis*. We are looking at a 50-70 WIS/CHA for these numbers. *=This is for EH and EE and no I do not have hard data on this but this is from my experience in playing and grouping with DC spell casters, discussion is welcome here.

    Suggestions?: DC: Level/3 + WIS/CHA mod. + (attack bonus/2)

    This offers a dynamic DC that rewards high WIS/CHA, caters to the divine melee, as well as offering reliable DC's on EH and EE. It would not include attack sequence bonuses or movement penalties to attack bonus in calculating DC, nor would it include BAB increases from Divine Power(spell and enhancement), Tenser's Transformation, or the Divine Crusader innate.
    It would be a viable option for WIS/CHA casters as well, who would usually have a higher WIS/CHA than melees and would avoid the attack penalty from Power Attack. The DC's will increase with the character, which is able to equip higher accuracy gear, acquire more ability points, and gain Base Attack Bonuses as the character progresses through levels 20-30.

    The casting time could use a rework to be a quick/instant cast.

    Example: A level 28 40-CHA and 70-attack bonus divine melee character might achieve a 60 DC.

    Blessed Blades: A nice ability that might benefit from being a toggle for those players who use Celestia to break DR. Even better would be if 'light' damage type on weapons were changed so it would continue to break DR even when other damage types such as good/lawful were added to the weapon. An easy way to implement this might be if DR/- were coded to be DR/light instead.

    Tier 4:
    no comments

    Tier 5:
    Celestial Champion: A very nice melee ability for the critical threat range. Please mention the TYPE of bonus to make things clearer for us players. The double strike is just the icing on the cake.
    That being said, the sacred double strike bonus will not stack with a Paladin's Zeal. I would change it into a unique, untyped, or celestial bonus, or something so it stacks with other double strike bonuses.

    Tier 6:
    Strike Down: A powerful melee smite that, given the (levelx3+7) damage and 15 seconds cooldown*, will do ball park numbers of ~70-100 average dps on a 15-20 3x weapon, ~1000-1500 on hit (level 28). One thing that needs to be addressed is that, unlike other smites, this is also a cleave. Will TWF be able to receive dmg+procs on both the main and offhand as in a smite or will it be more in line with a cleave where the offhand is essentially non-existent?

    Celestial Bombardment: A very well-made ability. Compared to the Tier 4 Energy Burst, which has a base of 644 avg damage at level 28, this ability has a base of 294 avg damage. The advantages of Celestial Bombardment is that it has a chance to knock down enemies providing CC, and that there is no save for the damage portion. However, it suffers from some of the same DC issues as Stand and Be Judged, even though this ability it is more powerful because it targets the Reflex saving throw and requires 3 consecutive saves. For this to be justified as a Tier 6 ability the DC should be reworked.

    Suggestions?: DC: Level/6 + WIS/CHA mod. + (attack bonus/2)

    Like the DC suggestion for Stand and Be Judged, this also offers a very dynamic DC that rewards divine melees and increases in power as your character increases in level. This would follow the same rules as the suggestion for Stand and Be Judged (above).
    Also, consider giving it the same damage split as Consecration, 1/2 good, 1/2 fire, both affected by fire spell power. It would make this skill more usable in areas with fire immunity.
    Example: A level 28 40-CHA and 70-attack bonus divine melee character might achieve a 54 DC.

    Notes: The "Evocation spell DC" was rejected because I believe it to be a less than optimal way to boost the spell DCs. As a melee divine, it can be very gear intensive and players will not want to sacrifice gear slots and twists to make the knockdown portion viable, especially on a Tier 6 ability. The optional of adding "Evocation spell DC" on top of my suggested DC modifier would also make the DC too powerful.

    End remarks: Overall a very nice destiny. I especially like the melee + fire spell power theme. However, it is still unclear what is being done with the epic moment.

    Is Wrath of the Righteous + the 2 Tier 6 actives enough to make an epic moment? Is it intended to be this way? As it is now, none of these abilities would qualify as an epic moment alone, and Wrath of the Righteous should be reworked regardless as many forum members dislike the decaying stacks with long cool down.

    One point worth emphasizing is that this destiny offers many low-cooldown active abilities and would definitely benefit from making Confront Any Foe a toggle on/off ability as suggested.

    You may wish to adjust DC formulas/numbers but if a higher DC is desired in the earlier epic levels, consider changing the Level/3 and Level/6 into fixed a fixed 10 and 5.

    Finally, what to do with Wrath of the Righteous?
    Suggestion?: Change it back with some modifications. Modifications in bold.

    Toggle - Whenever a worthy enemy who was effected by your stack of Purity dies, you gain a stack of Wrath. Each stack of Wrath provides +1 Spell Power, +1% Damage and refreshes the decay timer. Stacks decay 1 stack per 60 seconds. If you have less than 10 stacks of Wrath, gain up to 10 stacks of Wrath.

    Taken together, these changes would make this a complete, viable, and competitive melee divine destiny that fits the theme that was called for (offensive melee + some fire damage) and is also fun to play.


    Thank you for taking the time to read my comments.
    If developers would like to discuss any aspect of my post or have any questions please feel free to contact me through private message.
    Last edited by ghtzxc; 03-13-2014 at 04:32 PM.

  3. #203

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    As long as divine wrath is capped at 100%, Divine Crusader is just a flavor choice or something to hold your nose while suffering through for karma. Master's Blitz gives you DOUBLE the dps.

  4. #204
    Community Member bennyson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superdupe6934 View Post
    Then why bother calling this a melee DPS tree if the focus is supposed to be for a primarily caster based class? It's like a bad joke.
    Because there's a difference between a Divine Tank with survivability and a Divine Damage Dealer who can spamcast spells and a Divine Caster who can blow up minds with magics of a Abyss.

    As for me? Am going to use this destiny for my pally anyway BECAUSE ITS A DIVINE MELEE DESTINY, I don't care if it deals 150% less damage than LD's non-group friendly Blitz. What I DO worry about is...


    What is DC's Epic Moment going to do?
    Will it be crazy overpowered?
    Will it give a massive bonus to melee and magic damage?
    Will it regeneration stacks of Wrath?
    Will it transform my character into some kind of Deva? Like you see in EA's Ascendance ability?
    Will it give crazy bonuses to stats?
    Will it be worth the last salts of DP (destiny points) I have?
    Will it make the Aura of Purification into a insane AOE killing spree?

    That is what I worry the most about now...

  5. #205
    Community Member superdupe6934's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bennyson View Post
    Because there's a difference between a Divine Tank with survivability and a Divine Damage Dealer who can spamcast spells and a Divine Caster who can blow up minds with magics of a Abyss.

    As for me? Am going to use this destiny for my pally anyway BECAUSE ITS A DIVINE MELEE DESTINY, I don't care if it deals 150% less damage than LD's non-group friendly Blitz. What I DO worry about is...


    What is DC's Epic Moment going to do?
    Will it be crazy overpowered?
    Will it give a massive bonus to melee and magic damage?
    Will it regeneration stacks of Wrath?
    Will it transform my character into some kind of Deva? Like you see in EA's Ascendance ability?
    Will it give crazy bonuses to stats?
    Will it be worth the last salts of DP (destiny points) I have?
    Will it make the Aura of Purification into a insane AOE killing spree?

    That is what I worry the most about now...
    Except that Melee implies you swing a WEAPON, not cast a spell. The whole point of melee DPS practically screams "Paladin"
    . A melee destiny shouldn't be weaker than the LD, but should be able to equal it in ways that play to divine strengths (ie kill evil creatures quickly with more ease). I don't want OP, but we should at least equal the fighter build on most grounds.

  6. #206
    Community Member bennyson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superdupe6934 View Post
    A melee destiny shouldn't be weaker than the LD, but should be able to equal it in ways that play to divine strengths (ie kill evil creatures quickly with more ease). I don't want OP, but we should at least equal the fighter build on most grounds.
    This^

  7. #207
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    I think Celestial Bombardment should be moved or copied to Exalted Angel, as it is more relating to spell dps

  8. #208
    Community Member fmalfeas's Avatar
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    Something for Exalted Angel: Since there are already PnP non-epic spells turned into ED powers (I'm looking at you, Cocoon), why not a spell our divines don't have, but should, and who's counterpart we get hit with in a raid anyway?

    I'm talking about Holy Word. But please, please don't implement the hardcap of our caster level to it. That would make it useless (in tabletop, holy word has no effect at all on things with more HD than your caster level).

    But let it banish non-good outsiders. Let it blind, deafen, paralyze, and even sometimes kill! Large AoE centered on the caster, kinda like Firestorm.

    Or maybe Epic Planar Ally. Calls forth, for a limited time, something truely frightening. A Solar Angel, or a Planetar...and not one with the kind of usefulness of most of our other summons. One that matters.

  9. #209
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    Vargouille,

    You've gotten a lot of good feedback here in this thread (plus some noise), but the discussion seems to have mostly concluded now.

    Might we expect to see another iteration of the design proposal at some point? Or do we just wait for whichever patch this stuff is in to hit Lamannia?

    Thanks for taking feedback on the Divine sphere seriously (as evidenced by these changes happening at all!), and for the communication we've had on this so far.

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by danlan View Post
    I think Celestial Bombardment should be moved or copied to Exalted Angel, as it is more relating to spell dps
    very true

  11. #211
    Community Member poltt48's Avatar
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    Personally I hate direction divines are going. I like being a healer. I have played a healer in every game I ever played. Have been playing a cleric or FVS for 8 years on this game. But healers are now useless. Everyone has heals now. Unless a really hard EE healers are not needed at all in quests. Then in really hard EE does not matter if you have a healer there there to rez not to heal since mobs hit to hard or have stupid abilities that have no change to heal with. Epic destinies now and changes give not a damb thing to help healers. Sad but primal ED get much better heal abilities then divine ED get. Changes to divine ED just really **** me off cause there trying to add stuff to help pallys. Pallys keep complaining they really gimp now try playing a healing cleric. Other then raids your useless. Makes me wonder why hell I am paying for VIP for so long.

  12. #212
    Community Member Infiltraitor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    As long as divine wrath is capped at 100%, Divine Crusader is just a flavor choice or something to hold your nose while suffering through for karma. Master's Blitz gives you DOUBLE the dps.
    Actually, the deal breaker for me is HANDWRAPS.
    If celestial champion works on unarmed and natural fighting, this destiny will be worth using. Otherwise... more new content that is obsolete before it comes out.

    EDIT:
    Although Sword and Shield Dwarven tanks using Deathnip 15-20/x4 isn't too bad either. I could really go for this if it isn't going to be bugged.
    Last edited by Infiltraitor; 03-18-2014 at 10:43 PM.

    Still the weakest member and dumbest of Omnipresence.

  13. #213
    Community Member shadowowl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poltt48 View Post
    Personally I hate direction divines are going. I like being a healer. I have played a healer in every game I ever played. Have been playing a cleric or FVS for 8 years on this game. But healers are now useless. Everyone has heals now. Unless a really hard EE healers are not needed at all in quests. Then in really hard EE does not matter if you have a healer there there to rez not to heal since mobs hit to hard or have stupid abilities that have no change to heal with. Epic destinies now and changes give not a damb thing to help healers. Sad but primal ED get much better heal abilities then divine ED get. Changes to divine ED just really **** me off cause there trying to add stuff to help pallys. Pallys keep complaining they really gimp now try playing a healing cleric. Other then raids your useless. Makes me wonder why hell I am paying for VIP for so long.
    healers may not be needed but they are most certainly welcome and make questing faster.

  14. #214
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    Default Vargouille, what's the next step?

    Vargouille,

    I really appropriate you starting this discussion. However, It has been some time since you posted anything here, it would be comforting to know you are still "reading along."

    I completely agree with SirValentine. Lots of good feedback in this thread. Some of us have put in a good deal of time analyzing this and running numbers so hopefully it is useful to you.

    Would really like to know when we might see the next iteration of this process and what that might be.

  15. #215
    Developer Vargouille's Avatar
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    Definitely still reading. Half a post worked up. Lots of things to read and write!

    I'll try to get the details together for posting, but I don't want to write anything too disorganized. That inevitably ends in tears.

    The feedback has definitely been useful and some changes have been made as a result.

  16. #216
    Community Member arkonas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poltt48 View Post
    Personally I hate direction divines are going. I like being a healer. I have played a healer in every game I ever played. Have been playing a cleric or FVS for 8 years on this game. But healers are now useless. Everyone has heals now. Unless a really hard EE healers are not needed at all in quests. Then in really hard EE does not matter if you have a healer there there to rez not to heal since mobs hit to hard or have stupid abilities that have no change to heal with. Epic destinies now and changes give not a damb thing to help healers. Sad but primal ED get much better heal abilities then divine ED get. Changes to divine ED just really **** me off cause there trying to add stuff to help pallys. Pallys keep complaining they really gimp now try playing a healing cleric. Other then raids your useless. Makes me wonder why hell I am paying for VIP for so long.
    while i see your point. i personally think its awesome i can self heal because not everyone does heal nor can you guarantee you will get one in a party. So for me i wanted to be self sufficient. i wanted to be able to raise people or heal myself, etc if needed. so to me i really liked i had the chance to do it. sure my stuff will never top a real divine but ill take some of it to keep myself alive. hell sometimes i can save a divine or help another when the divine is busy. i see nothing wrong with that.

  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Definitely still reading. Half a post worked up. Lots of things to read and write!

    I'll try to get the details together for posting, but I don't want to write anything too disorganized. That inevitably ends in tears.

    The feedback has definitely been useful and some changes have been made as a result.
    Thanks for the quick reply.

    I'm afraid there will be tears regardless of what you say, just hope they are not mine

    Happy to hear things are moving along and anxiously awaiting your next post.

  18. #218
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Default Perhaps an unreasonable suggestion

    I really like that the last build of Divine Crusader had three possible stats that could be boosted through the tree. It allows for a lot of build flexibility. My feeling is why stop there? There are certainly Dex and Con based Paladins out there. Dwarves, Elves, Morninglords and races and builds that potentially rely on non-standard stats would benefit from expanding the possibilities beyond what they currently are.

    My suggestion is to start allowing any stat to be boosted in any destiny tree. DDO is already incredibly impressive in the character customization department, and doing this would only add more possibilities to the already limitless combinations.

    There are, I'm sure, lore reasons why some might be opposed to such a change, but this alteration could potentially open up a lot of trees for people who normally wouldn't give certain trees a second glance. It would also make players feel better about having to level destinies that their builds don't have much natural synergy with.
    Last edited by FlaviusMaximus; 03-19-2014 at 07:14 PM.

  19. #219
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Definitely still reading. Half a post worked up. Lots of things to read and write!

    I'll try to get the details together for posting, but I don't want to write anything too disorganized. That inevitably ends in tears.

    The feedback has definitely been useful and some changes have been made as a result.
    I'm tingling in anticipation~

    Will the divine ED sphere changes be on Lammania before they hit live?

  20. #220

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Definitely still reading. Half a post worked up. Lots of things to read and write!

    I'll try to get the details together for posting, but I don't want to write anything too disorganized. That inevitably ends in tears.

    The feedback has definitely been useful and some changes have been made as a result.
    Once you're done (and I do believe we need better divine destinies) can you please consider creating a Arti one. Currently the best option for an Arti is to either fury, Shiradi or Draconic stuff, which puts their main arsenal in the backseat (rune arm). And since there's no way to boost acid and cold on the enhancement level, it would be great to provide those options on the destiny level.

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