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  1. #381
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Missed the first ten days of this thread, sorry if this has been covered.


    Prior to MOTU, it appears that the quest designers could tune multiple variables in statting mobs. Consider a monster like a Kobold Shaman in Waterworks.

    On Normal, they have a few fairly nonlethal spells, and a (quite dangerous) low DC Niac's Cold Ray.
    On Hard, they have the much more dangerous Hold Person
    And on Elite, they have (assuming no guild buffs) the terrifying Lightning Bolt.

    Their melee combat prowess sucks on all difficulties, but they do significantly more damage on Elite and have much better To-Hit.


    In addition, mobs had very varied durability within quests. Consider Rainbow in the Dark - that quest has very high HP Gelatinous Cubes, low HP fragile (but deadly) Barbazu, durable but not very dangerous Orthons and Stone Golems, and a few other mobs.



    Contrast this to a post-MotU monster such as the Drow Planescallers in Reclaiming the Rift or a Dire Bear in Thorn and Paw.

    On each difficulty, these monsters behave the same. The only difference between an EE Planescaller and an EN one is their stats.
    In fact, I've been able to ascertain - through the monster manual - a good deal of how the post-MotU system works.
    First, you design a generic 'Epic' version of a mob (or for quests that were Epic at the 20 cap, you use the one that was designed then).
    Next, you modify the CR - 60% of base for EN, 85% for EH, 125% for EE.
    Finally, you derive (using formulas I can guess at but do not know) all of the monster's stats - HP, spellpower, attack damage, saves, ability scores, etc - from its CR and the 'Old Epic' stats.

    In particular, I can tell from experience that (before dungeon scaling) EN red/purple nameds have 25% of 'old epic' HP, EH have 65% IIRC (need to check that) and EE 135%.


    The problems here are:

    - Mob spells do not vary with difficulty any more. As a result we see ridiculous things like Epic Casual Chamber of Raiyum mummies using the devastating Greater Dispelling --> Destruction combo (which is fine in EE or EH but not suited at all for solo players i.e. the whole audience of the EC difficulty)
    - The mob stats are not designed according to the capabilities of the characters that are the target audience of each difficulty.
    - There are a few player abilities that are blatantly overpowered at the moment, and monster stats from the Druid's Curse onward have been balanced around the assumption that EE parties have these cookie-cutter, legitimately broken builds. This then utterly invalidates character builds that are not designed around Furyshot, Master's Blitz, Shiradi, or a couple of other less powerful but still borderline viable builds. The decision not to nerf those design mistakes has led to a massive indirect nerf to all other builds as monster stats have risen to challenge the broken builds.
    - It is not the case, and has never been the case, that EE-oriented characters have spell DCs 15-20 points above those of the audience for Epic Hard, yet monster saves are regularly 15-20 points higher. Ditto for SR figures.
    - Monster attack damage has scaled so high (on EE) that probabalistic damage mitigations (AC and Dodge) are unreliable and so PRR and HP become everything. However, players have already hit the point of sharp diminishing returns on PRR.


    What you need to do is generate monster stats and spell lists completely separately for each difficulty.

    Get top 10% players to run a quest against your initial attempts at EE stats, and listen to their feedback on how difficult (or easy) it is. Adjust monster damage for telegraphed special attacks through the roof, increase monster movement and attack speed, and tune monster saves so that a max-geared character with all +DC past lives except Completionist and all available EH or lower gear can hit monster 'good saves' 25% of the time and 'bad saves' 75% of the time (factoring in SR as well, if appropriate).

    In addition EE monsters need tools to mitigate player kiting that are not needed on lower difficulties. Crippling arrows, the Horrid Wilting spell for casters to use against point-blank circle kiting players, large AoE cleave attacks that trip (with a save) on a vorpal, Dispel/Slow effects to slow players down, and various other tricks like that. Or just have the monsters spawn with Haste.

    Finally, really amplify monster strengths but don't plug their weaknesses. An EE rogue trash mob should not have 6000hp. But it should hit like a truck - there's nothing wrong with them having 75% fortification bypass, 150 base damage, 150 sneak attack damage, and a 15-20/x2 crit profile, alongside a mere thousand hitpoints.

    Get 11th-50th percentile players to run a quest against your initial EH statted monsters, and adjust to their feedback. On EH, telegraphed special attacks should be dangerous but not deadly (think on par with Heroic Hard Searing Lights in Running with the Devils - those are attacks players should be strafing to avoid but can easily survive a couple of hits from).

    Get 51st-90th percentile players to give feedback on EN, and keep it forgiving.

    Then get bottom 10% players to give feedback for EC. (This really should be renamed "Storyline Mode" because of the demeaning nature of the term 'casual' in online gaming, but that's a different matter).
    I don't have a zerging problem.

    I'm zerging. That's YOUR problem.

  2. #382
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    Missed the first ten days of this thread, sorry if this has been covered.


    Prior to MOTU, it appears that the quest designers could tune multiple variables in statting mobs. Consider a monster like a Kobold Shaman in Waterworks.

    On Normal, they have a few fairly nonlethal spells, and a (quite dangerous) low DC Niac's Cold Ray.
    On Hard, they have the much more dangerous Hold Person
    And on Elite, they have (assuming no guild buffs) the terrifying Lightning Bolt.

    Their melee combat prowess sucks on all difficulties, but they do significantly more damage on Elite and have much better To-Hit.


    In addition, mobs had very varied durability within quests. Consider Rainbow in the Dark - that quest has very high HP Gelatinous Cubes, low HP fragile (but deadly) Barbazu, durable but not very dangerous Orthons and Stone Golems, and a few other mobs.



    Contrast this to a post-MotU monster such as the Drow Planescallers in Reclaiming the Rift or a Dire Bear in Thorn and Paw.

    On each difficulty, these monsters behave the same. The only difference between an EE Planescaller and an EN one is their stats.
    In fact, I've been able to ascertain - through the monster manual - a good deal of how the post-MotU system works.
    First, you design a generic 'Epic' version of a mob (or for quests that were Epic at the 20 cap, you use the one that was designed then).
    Next, you modify the CR - 60% of base for EN, 85% for EH, 125% for EE.
    Finally, you derive (using formulas I can guess at but do not know) all of the monster's stats - HP, spellpower, attack damage, saves, ability scores, etc - from its CR and the 'Old Epic' stats.

    In particular, I can tell from experience that (before dungeon scaling) EN red/purple nameds have 25% of 'old epic' HP, EH have 65% IIRC (need to check that) and EE 135%.


    The problems here are:

    - Mob spells do not vary with difficulty any more. As a result we see ridiculous things like Epic Casual Chamber of Raiyum mummies using the devastating Greater Dispelling --> Destruction combo (which is fine in EE or EH but not suited at all for solo players i.e. the whole audience of the EC difficulty)
    - The mob stats are not designed according to the capabilities of the characters that are the target audience of each difficulty.
    - There are a few player abilities that are blatantly overpowered at the moment, and monster stats from the Druid's Curse onward have been balanced around the assumption that EE parties have these cookie-cutter, legitimately broken builds. This then utterly invalidates character builds that are not designed around Furyshot, Master's Blitz, Shiradi, or a couple of other less powerful but still borderline viable builds. The decision not to nerf those design mistakes has led to a massive indirect nerf to all other builds as monster stats have risen to challenge the broken builds.
    - It is not the case, and has never been the case, that EE-oriented characters have spell DCs 15-20 points above those of the audience for Epic Hard, yet monster saves are regularly 15-20 points higher. Ditto for SR figures.
    - Monster attack damage has scaled so high (on EE) that probabalistic damage mitigations (AC and Dodge) are unreliable and so PRR and HP become everything. However, players have already hit the point of sharp diminishing returns on PRR.


    What you need to do is generate monster stats and spell lists completely separately for each difficulty.

    Get top 10% players to run a quest against your initial attempts at EE stats, and listen to their feedback on how difficult (or easy) it is. Adjust monster damage for telegraphed special attacks through the roof, increase monster movement and attack speed, and tune monster saves so that a max-geared character with all +DC past lives except Completionist and all available EH or lower gear can hit monster 'good saves' 25% of the time and 'bad saves' 75% of the time (factoring in SR as well, if appropriate).

    In addition EE monsters need tools to mitigate player kiting that are not needed on lower difficulties. Crippling arrows, the Horrid Wilting spell for casters to use against point-blank circle kiting players, large AoE cleave attacks that trip (with a save) on a vorpal, Dispel/Slow effects to slow players down, and various other tricks like that. Or just have the monsters spawn with Haste.

    Finally, really amplify monster strengths but don't plug their weaknesses. An EE rogue trash mob should not have 6000hp. But it should hit like a truck - there's nothing wrong with them having 75% fortification bypass, 150 base damage, 150 sneak attack damage, and a 15-20/x2 crit profile, alongside a mere thousand hitpoints.

    Get 11th-50th percentile players to run a quest against your initial EH statted monsters, and adjust to their feedback. On EH, telegraphed special attacks should be dangerous but not deadly (think on par with Heroic Hard Searing Lights in Running with the Devils - those are attacks players should be strafing to avoid but can easily survive a couple of hits from).

    Get 51st-90th percentile players to give feedback on EN, and keep it forgiving.

    Then get bottom 10% players to give feedback for EC. (This really should be renamed "Storyline Mode" because of the demeaning nature of the term 'casual' in online gaming, but that's a different matter).
    Really nice thread.

    Dev please consider.

  3. #383
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
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    @sirgog:
    Hitting like a truck is the exact reason, why melees splash ranged options and/or build directly around Furyshot. If you want to make more builds viable than ''cookiecutters'' then you have to tune down mob dps.

    Your example of Rainbow In The Dark is actually the very best one regarding balanced mob composition:
    Many different weaknesses, which enforces many ressources/weapons to hit them on that.
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  4. #384
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
    @sirgog:
    Hitting like a truck is the exact reason, why melees splash ranged options and/or build directly around Furyshot. If you want to make more builds viable than ''cookiecutters'' then you have to tune down mob dps.

    Your example of Rainbow In The Dark is actually the very best one regarding balanced mob composition:
    Many different weaknesses, which enforces many ressources/weapons to hit them on that.
    Yeah I think realistically avoidable attacks (like Searing Light in Running with the Devils, which can be LoS'ed around either a corner or by giving the monster a 'You are not facing your target' targetting fail by a good player) can do huge amounts of damage but unavoidable attacks (Horrid Wilting) should not.

    There was a time in endgame where melee characters that stood their ground but dodged the most dangerous attacks were viable.


    Ridiculous swarms of medium-statted monsters are not the way to go either.


    Another example of a very well handled quest: Monastery of the Scorpion. You have anti-caster trash (the drow monks with high SR, high saves, moderately fast movement but low HP), anti-melee trash (the durable and hard-hitting but slow scorpions), casters that threaten all players (Poison spells against evasive characters, Fireball effects on everyone else), and they manage to be dangerous (to people that do not know the quest backward already) without needing HP bloat or per-swing damage bloat.

    Contrast this to the 3000hp trash in the heroic High Road quests. Fighting them drags.
    I don't have a zerging problem.

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  5. #385
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    Missed the first ten days of this thread, sorry if this has been covered.
    It has been, by several people, who have said almost word for word what you have said, however, I am glad you have added your voice to this, as it illustrates that the problems are recognized by many varying players, and that the devs really should pay attention to this.

  6. #386
    Founder Delacroix21's Avatar
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    I will keep it short and simple:
    1. Monster saves are to high in EE
    2. Mobs DCs are too high in EE
    3. Mobs CRs are to high and make things like spell resistance useless
    4. Mobs have to much HP in EE
    5. Mobs hit WAY to hard in EE (hard is good, but it needs to be reasonable)


    EE for the most part has become a ranged kite fest where players rely on no-save abilities for CC. In EE players should be able to survive hits and tanks should really be meaningful as useful. Maybe AC should also reduce monster damage just like PRR in addition to the miss chance?


    The game is fun and excited and feels like DnD, until EE content. Then it just becomes non stop exploiting game mechanics, hidden ledges, etc. to win. People don't use these exploitive game mechanics because they like to cheat, they use them because their is no other way to do it!




    Great example:
    FoT on En and EH: fun raid with healers, tank, and mixed dps.

    FoT on EE: All ranged dps, no tanking or meele, bring your own spot heals. Sound fun?
    Making DDO a better game 1 post at a time!

    Triple EVERYTHING Completionist= Heroic 39/39, Iconic 12/12, Epic 36/36

  7. #387
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    Yeah I think realistically avoidable attacks (like Searing Light in Running with the Devils, which can be LoS'ed around either a corner or by giving the monster a 'You are not facing your target' targetting fail by a good player) can do huge amounts of damage but unavoidable attacks (Horrid Wilting) should not.

    There was a time in endgame where melee characters that stood their ground but dodged the most dangerous attacks were viable.


    Ridiculous swarms of medium-statted monsters are not the way to go either.


    Another example of a very well handled quest: Monastery of the Scorpion. You have anti-caster trash (the drow monks with high SR, high saves, moderately fast movement but low HP), anti-melee trash (the durable and hard-hitting but slow scorpions), casters that threaten all players (Poison spells against evasive characters, Fireball effects on everyone else), and they manage to be dangerous (to people that do not know the quest backward already) without needing HP bloat or per-swing damage bloat.

    Contrast this to the 3000hp trash in the heroic High Road quests. Fighting them drags.
    Well, the medium statted mobs are a threat having different weak and strong spots. The different immunities in RiTD stretch fights enough to make a melee sweat, who relied on only one weapon till that level range, e. g. heroic SoS.

    But state as it is you are swarmed by epic elite over 9k statted mobs instead of 2-3 max. Tune them down so the number of 10 mobs in total is a threat to you. That means take the original challenge rating and encounter level system into account instead of just looking at some dps numbers of one!!! character build and bloat hps according to this.

    Funny thing is that the first Eveningstar chain handles those mobs better than most of epic elite after it, imho of course. Regrouping and learning the quest/tactics while in the quest is fun, you progress on a fluent level instead of *ding* your way to success (staying in quest for 3 hours and finally beat it is more fun for me than wasting time for a total of 3 hours with intervals of ship buff + loading screen + mysterious zone in crash even on SSD PC + relog + reenter). That is the challenge I wish for myself on epic elite.
    Last edited by zwiebelring; 03-18-2014 at 12:23 PM.
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  8. #388
    Community Member Firewall's Avatar
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    One more thing: Please make Spell Resistance viable in EH and EE again. As it is now even as a drow with full racial enhancement bonus you don't feel like your spell resistance makes any difference!
    Shuricannon 2.0 Drow 20 Monk Thrower for DPS, Nethercannon Shadar-Kai 15 Pal/3 Monk/2 Rog Thrower for Past Lifes
    Shiradi Shuricannon Drow 20 Monk Thrower for Defense, Shiradi Warcannon Warforged 11 Wiz/6 Monk/3 Rog Thrower...Throwers for the win

  9. #389
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firewall View Post
    One more thing: Please make Spell Resistance viable in EH and EE again. As it is now even as a drow with full racial enhancement bonus you don't feel like your spell resistance makes any difference!
    Player SR has not been viable since the level cap was 10, due to mob CR being tied to caster level for longer than most stats have been.
    I don't have a zerging problem.

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  10. #390

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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    Player SR has not been viable since the level cap was 10, due to mob CR being tied to caster level for longer than most stats have been.
    Well, technically, pure barbarians can achieve meaningful spell resistance for endgame EEs thanks to the occult slayer captsone adding your constitution score to spell resistance.

    Other than that, not so much.

  11. #391
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Well, technically, pure barbarians can achieve meaningful spell resistance for endgame EEs thanks to the occult slayer captsone adding your constitution score to spell resistance.

    Other than that, not so much.
    Technically, pure Barbs have no place in EE content

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  13. #393
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    Quote Originally Posted by hockeyrama View Post
    The balanced party would need to use a lot of strategy and go slow. The 4 sorcs just walk in and boom room cleared, rinse and repeat. This is a big problem.
    I think that this has always been true even years ago, it was true even before epics. Warforged repair isn't new but less players used sorcs back then because they had were useless against certain mobs immune to their element. But almost no mobs are immune to force damage/shiradi no save procs and that is what makes sorcs currently FOTM. Sorcs require zero past lives and zero gear farming.


    I would like to see a raid boss Beholder with a huge antimagic field. That would be interesting and if it could remove the magic effects off items that would be cool too. What an interesting fight that would be.
    Last edited by capsela; 04-15-2014 at 09:43 PM.

  14. #394
    Community Member Nestroy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    Missed the first ten days of this thread, sorry if this has been covered.


    Prior to MOTU, it appears that the quest designers could tune multiple variables in statting mobs. Consider a monster like a Kobold Shaman in Waterworks.

    On Normal, they have a few fairly nonlethal spells, and a (quite dangerous) low DC Niac's Cold Ray.
    On Hard, they have the much more dangerous Hold Person
    And on Elite, they have (assuming no guild buffs) the terrifying Lightning Bolt.

    Their melee combat prowess sucks on all difficulties, but they do significantly more damage on Elite and have much better To-Hit.


    In addition, mobs had very varied durability within quests. Consider Rainbow in the Dark - that quest has very high HP Gelatinous Cubes, low HP fragile (but deadly) Barbazu, durable but not very dangerous Orthons and Stone Golems, and a few other mobs.



    Contrast this to a post-MotU monster such as the Drow Planescallers in Reclaiming the Rift or a Dire Bear in Thorn and Paw.

    On each difficulty, these monsters behave the same. The only difference between an EE Planescaller and an EN one is their stats.
    In fact, I've been able to ascertain - through the monster manual - a good deal of how the post-MotU system works.
    First, you design a generic 'Epic' version of a mob (or for quests that were Epic at the 20 cap, you use the one that was designed then).
    Next, you modify the CR - 60% of base for EN, 85% for EH, 125% for EE.
    Finally, you derive (using formulas I can guess at but do not know) all of the monster's stats - HP, spellpower, attack damage, saves, ability scores, etc - from its CR and the 'Old Epic' stats.

    In particular, I can tell from experience that (before dungeon scaling) EN red/purple nameds have 25% of 'old epic' HP, EH have 65% IIRC (need to check that) and EE 135%.


    The problems here are:

    - Mob spells do not vary with difficulty any more. As a result we see ridiculous things like Epic Casual Chamber of Raiyum mummies using the devastating Greater Dispelling --> Destruction combo (which is fine in EE or EH but not suited at all for solo players i.e. the whole audience of the EC difficulty)
    - The mob stats are not designed according to the capabilities of the characters that are the target audience of each difficulty.
    - There are a few player abilities that are blatantly overpowered at the moment, and monster stats from the Druid's Curse onward have been balanced around the assumption that EE parties have these cookie-cutter, legitimately broken builds. This then utterly invalidates character builds that are not designed around Furyshot, Master's Blitz, Shiradi, or a couple of other less powerful but still borderline viable builds. The decision not to nerf those design mistakes has led to a massive indirect nerf to all other builds as monster stats have risen to challenge the broken builds.
    - It is not the case, and has never been the case, that EE-oriented characters have spell DCs 15-20 points above those of the audience for Epic Hard, yet monster saves are regularly 15-20 points higher. Ditto for SR figures.
    - Monster attack damage has scaled so high (on EE) that probabalistic damage mitigations (AC and Dodge) are unreliable and so PRR and HP become everything. However, players have already hit the point of sharp diminishing returns on PRR.


    What you need to do is generate monster stats and spell lists completely separately for each difficulty.

    Get top 10% players to run a quest against your initial attempts at EE stats, and listen to their feedback on how difficult (or easy) it is. Adjust monster damage for telegraphed special attacks through the roof, increase monster movement and attack speed, and tune monster saves so that a max-geared character with all +DC past lives except Completionist and all available EH or lower gear can hit monster 'good saves' 25% of the time and 'bad saves' 75% of the time (factoring in SR as well, if appropriate).

    In addition EE monsters need tools to mitigate player kiting that are not needed on lower difficulties. Crippling arrows, the Horrid Wilting spell for casters to use against point-blank circle kiting players, large AoE cleave attacks that trip (with a save) on a vorpal, Dispel/Slow effects to slow players down, and various other tricks like that. Or just have the monsters spawn with Haste.

    Finally, really amplify monster strengths but don't plug their weaknesses. An EE rogue trash mob should not have 6000hp. But it should hit like a truck - there's nothing wrong with them having 75% fortification bypass, 150 base damage, 150 sneak attack damage, and a 15-20/x2 crit profile, alongside a mere thousand hitpoints.

    Get 11th-50th percentile players to run a quest against your initial EH statted monsters, and adjust to their feedback. On EH, telegraphed special attacks should be dangerous but not deadly (think on par with Heroic Hard Searing Lights in Running with the Devils - those are attacks players should be strafing to avoid but can easily survive a couple of hits from).

    Get 51st-90th percentile players to give feedback on EN, and keep it forgiving.

    Then get bottom 10% players to give feedback for EC. (This really should be renamed "Storyline Mode" because of the demeaning nature of the term 'casual' in online gaming, but that's a different matter).
    /signed - very good idea. Alone, it will take much dev time and this is something we will not get, I would say.

  15. #395
    Community Member poltt48's Avatar
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    I don't mind the hp of mobs not a big deal having a lot of hp just takes longer to kill witch some stuff should. The biggest problem of mobs is there DC being so high especially in EE. Most abilitys will no land on epic content making getting them in your enhancement trees past 20 useless. The example I love to use is iconic rogue chain.Does 1d6+4 damage plus 1d6 per level of toon so at 28 would do 29d6+4 witch does not sound like to bad damage. While 30 second one does same damage every few seconds with burst damage of 10d10 +60 every 5 seconds. Problem is mobs get reflex save against your level + dex mod for half witch you just cannot get high enough to really hit them for full damage in Epic content especially 28 level EE where mobs have way over 60 in reflex saves. You have to figure with full dex build will have 60 dex if your lucky witch is 25 mod + 28 level for 53 so mobs save with 1 roll. Then if your going assassination build you only going to have around 40 dex witch means no way at all for even 23+ EE mobs to take full damage. Same reason why mechanic tree enhancements are useless in epic content on rogues. Reason you take so much against them though is there's is based on there CR. On EE mirror alone your talking CR of 70+. So your taking 71d6+4 damage on there chain plus the burst damage when they do there 30 second one. With no way to save on reflex cause 70 CR + there dex modifier makes you need over 100 for your save to have a chance to save. I know monks with 80 reflex that will not make a single save on there chains. This is the biggest problem right now in monster str the unbalance of are abilitys compared to there abilitys cause of CR.

  16. #396
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    EE bossess got too many HPs, they are boring to kill. Add em more protections, or make em more dangerous, but pls reduce HPs.
    Leamos --> Completionist + Epic Completionist

    Arena PVP matchs are the only real end-game... still waiting that community will understand and let turbine to implement it.

  17. #397
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    Quote Originally Posted by No_Dice View Post
    Howdy!

    Senior systems designer and resident AI scripter here… I’m going to be assigning monsters their stats as well as their abilities/behaviors going forward, so in the same vein as Dr. Octothorpe’s loot post, you can now call me Dr. Frankenstein!

    I’d like to take this opportunity to query the community for an up-to-date feel for how y’all perceive the current state of monster stats.

    Some of the primary concerns that we see brought up on the forums are:
    1. Monster DC saves in 20+ content, and specifically in epic elite
    2. Monster hitpoints in 20+ content
    3. Monster damage when playing builds/classes that don’t have a ton of hit avoidance built in, and spike damage when you just get unlucky

    While it appears that y’all don’t agree on all of the details, there is enough discussion about these topics that we’d like to take a fresh look and identify the priority/scope of your concerns so any time spent addressing monster stats is focused on the right places. Are there any other areas of concern you’d like to see at the top of the list? Are there any more details you can give us in regard to the top 3 I just mentioned?
    *Disclaimer* I can’t promise this discussion will lead to any large adjustments in the next update, but It will help inform the direction of monster stats going forward!

    I’d love to hear about your builds, the numbers you can reasonably hit in regards to spell/ tactical feat DCs, and the monsters/difficulties you can’t affect with your build that you feel you should be able to.
    What is your DC on death spells? What about CC spells/abilities? How much damage potential have you given up in order to reach those DCs and how specialized is your build? What do your DCs look like on builds where you haven’t sacrificed any damage?

    For future development, we’re also looking into new ways to amp up the difficulty of monsters in high-level content to provide a challenge without overly-inflating their stats.
    Instead, we’re exploring ways other than damage and hitpoints to buff them which you can then overcome with equipment and smart use of abilities. Please share your ideas on this subject as well! I’m hoping to continue to make them smarter, scale more smoothly, have more abilities available, and work together in groups better, so please share ideas for AI as well as stats!

    Looking forward to reading your ideas/feedback!
    There should be little disconnect between the players and the monsters as far as what hit points they have and how much damage they do.

    Right now, it's common for characters to have (as a spitball average) 800-1000 hp at level 28. That mean a group of 6 players is worth about 6k on hit points, and a raid party about 12k. Call it 15k just to be generous.

    Even wimpy single monsters at level 28 have 20k-30k hit points. This means a single wave of 5 trash monsters has over 100k in hit points. Players do enough damage to kill them, but the monsters do not do as much damage as the players. Most monsters have more than 30k hit points. It's not uncommon to find single monsters that have 3-4x the hit points of the whole party, as single "trash" targets (not orange/red names).

    So, the players are able to produce 100k+ in damage (either actual damage, insta-kills, etc) but only need 15k in damage to kill.
    The monsters are usually not able to produce 15k in damage (if they did no one would complete quests), but need 100k+ to kill. And there are multiple waves of them, while the party is a small, fixed number.

    What we need is to go back to when individual monsters had maybe as many hit points as the whole party (or less) and the party members did less damage.

    A pass is needed on DCs to balance it in the same way. Players should be boosting their DCs on spells, tactical attacks, and saving throws to be just high enough to take out monsters (Trash should be somewhat easy while names should be harder). Those monsters (and traps) should be no higher than what players are able to cobble together.

    Monk's Stunning Fist (and melee's Stunning Blow) and PM's Necromancy and other casters Evocation, and feated Evasionists, all should all be within 5 points of each other for their absolute max DCs they can reach. Content should be balanced to the same at EE.

    Once the DCs are fixed then the monsters can start using their own crude tactics, which will put the challenge back in the game.

    What are some of the most hated monsters in the games? Kobold Shamans. But the shamans don't just sit in place waiting flinging lightning bolks and waiting for you to pound them. They dance, they jink, they perch on tiny invisible ledges, they cast aoe spells that hinder vision, they hide in alcoves. They use basic (limited, to be sure, but at least existent) tactics. They use their environment and they make the party work to kill them. Even with the (old) resistance shrines and buff lowbie gear, multi-completionist TR's pause for a moment respectfully when they hit an area with kobold shamans. The shamans don't have many hit points, but no lowbie wants to eat a face full of lightning bolt.

    What the developers _actually_ need to do is have a big meeting between all the groups responsible for numbers in the game and brainstorm out ways to dial back all the power creep that has crept in. Feat DCs, feat damage, Spell damage, spell DCs, tactical DCs, SLAs-that-are-spells, SLAs-that-aren't-spells, Action boosts, ML/AML on spells, spell power, etc. All of them have to be brought into a single clear linear progression from 1 to 30 (probably with a jump in power level between 19 and 20), and then monster hit points adjusted accordingly. This would be the time to also adjust quests to consider your ED level rather than your epic level

    This would have to ALL BE DONE AT ONCE, and it would _have_ to be previewed on Lamannia with enough time to sort out the majority of the bugs (not just the worst of them). No "half now and half later" nonsense, or coyly hiding the changes until everything is so horribly broken there's no hope of fixing it other than a rollback. Heroic content is mostly fine (except for the inflated numbers in loot gen and some overly-generous boosts to prestige powers) so most of the work would need to be done on epic levels and epic content.

  18. #398
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    There is much I could say about spell mechanics, EE difficulty etc.

    But I understand you are also the AI guy.
    If you are talking about making encounters harder by not just increasing stats but others things, I would like to have feedback to these two questions:

    Taking the endfight in EE Thrill of the Hunt as an example, because I kinda LOVE it. And hate it also.

    1. Is the melee damage of the endboss in this fight intentionally high, and is one solution to this problem to stand on the crates and/or beams? thereby encouraging players to outsmart those they can't kill with brute force, making this an example of an AI-based challenge?
    (if so, even with half his HP you would still either have to 'get' it, or have a very strong group to bruteforce.

    2. To what extend is his chain-slinging supposed to be dodgeable when meleeing and watching the character animation of the boss carefully?
    (If so, have you playtested this with various simulated internet connection delays?)

    Because these two things are key to many challenges you pose that are not simple DPS math.
    1. The line between cleverness and exploiting; the smarter you make you AI-based challenges, the less obvious the solutions get. I've seen people who perch been called exploiters, and I've seen people who don't perch been called dim-wits, and I can see both sides.

    2. Reaction-based challenges are fun (with healing they are already a core element of the game) and a way to task a player's player-skill instead of character strength, while at the same time enabling them to compensate for eachother.
    The idea being, when you have 1.5K HP and 200 PRR, you can take a few hits with a chain before you have to respond. And in the same way, if you are a former StarCraft pro with reflexes, multitasking capabilities and 300 APM like a Korean 16 year old you can get away with being a bit more squishy. (same for fire dragon yellow circles, airship cannonade, etc.)
    However, are you questioning yourself whether it's really reaction speed you are testing? Or internet connection speed, server stability and graphical card power (5~10 FPS is not uncommon, especially when effects go off or mobs suddenly spawn. I'm running a GTX760 on lowest settings and I know this to be a bigger problem for many others)?
    Last edited by Rull; 07-04-2014 at 10:40 AM.

  19. #399
    Community Member Shaude's Avatar
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    i m happy that some of these ideas are being looked at and even implemented.

    all ideas i read have great merit but the work to put most of them in is outrageous(its been broken and not fixed for so long just band-aided) most of which were said in the posts before(high saves,dc,hp,cr)

    i still think EE should be hard no not hard damn near impossible unless u have the best gear and multiple(10+) past lives and many etr's. there should be a place where these builds can be played and challenged in both player skill, knowledge, and character build (FOTM) or the best build of the type(caster, melee, tank if ever viable) and should require great team work for 3-6 players. so keeping to the original quest but adding surprises such as logarithm changing traps, stats, hp, dc's, saves and even spells(maybe) making it a challenge to see what works as the party moves through the quest.

    Monsters in general should be built like characters each having their own special things. ie a very high dps or saves or one really high dc spell and should be offset by something else low AC or prone to trips. or even add some silly things like deathblock but stunned on a saved FOD ect.

    What they should not be is a mass produced product. make them a little special. try to avoid a lot of deathtraps that only certain classes or multi classes can avoid like 15 archers on ridges, but some are needed. try adding ablities that are 'evaded' by a high/low skill and/or stat, i cant think of a good one. stupid stuff like can be fun brings a bit on pen and paper back to an almost pnp voided game.

    good luck with ur ideas DR. Frankenstein and i hope that they pan out as there is a lot of knowledge posted here from players like teh troll, EllisDee37 and many more. please take the advise and use it well, they have played these quest many times and with many toons and have a great working knowledge of the game from the player side.


    the ddo population i think would understand if we were told what changes where coming but do to time/staff only these will be done this month and these planned next month ect. i hope we would see a change coming and could deal with some things that weren't yet balanced because of it. things are looking better as more dev's are doing this and aside from the monstrosity of posts it seems to work well and help us players see that and adjust toons before the change.
    Last edited by Shaude; 07-04-2014 at 11:40 AM.

  20. #400
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    Epic Ward should go away
    The original intent of epic ward was to remove all the cheesy strategies that could trivialize epic content. Back in the day that was wounding of puncturing, mass charms, etc.. The problem is that its current implementation does not even remotely relate to what characters are capable of doing nowadays.
    Blitzers can basically 3 shot mobs, casters can 1 shot entire groups, yet epic ward guards against stat damage to prevent rogues from making it helpless after 20 swings? Makes no sense at all.

    Epic ward doesn't need to be removed, it needs to be modernized.

    Trash mobs should get a "minor epic ward" that only reduces the duration of charms and regenerates negative levels. Possibly new effects could be added like increases fortification, etc..

    Orange names and above should get a buffed version of epic ward that makes them completely immune to stat damage and negative levels, gives them true seeing, and makes them immune to certain powerful effects such as mortal fear. Possibly additional effects such as partially bypassing incorporeal or dodge as well.

    With all named mobs bypassing concealment, their ridiculous base damages (I'm looking at you Karleth) could then be nerfed down to more reasonable levels without making content any easier.
    Thelanis Thylus Thelassir Kjeldorn Ingrisstohr Khaarnath Lyriah Byrron Grunzo Thylandras Kharandras Thylandar Mallachias Kharnofski Grunzar Thyax Kharnoth Ghallanda Lykanthar Kharnor Thelanar Kharnaxe Kharnoth
    Khyber Gimpo

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