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  1. #21
    Community Member Atremus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by No_Dice View Post
    So you're concerned about the range between low and high saves, or more specifically, the "weak" saves not feeling low enough (brutes having too much will, casters having too much fort, etc...)

    Dispel is definitely something we'd like to look at as well
    Divine Casters are very far behind the power curve in terms of Damage Output and DC ability (typically 1 or 2 DC behind a similarly geared Wizard). Most of our bread and butter spells are capped at Caster Level 15 which scales into the new endgame HP pool about as well as the Titanic avoids icebergs. We need to be able to Cast Energy Drain and then Destruction reliably. If EE Mobs had around a 68 Fort save, life would be better. And for the love of Divines please uncap our spell damage. We are in Epics, let Divines be OPish again so people can play them again.

    Also the amount of Melee damage end game level EE stuff hits for is forcing players to look at ranged damage to survive more than 2 hits. People in game average around 800 HP. EE monsters can hit for 400 in one swing currently. Your monsters are out of proportion to player abilities for almost all classes except Monkchers and Sharadi. Range takes away some of the threat of Death, but your excluding all of the other classes now with this approach to the game
    Last edited by Atremus; 03-06-2014 at 03:44 PM.
    Characters: Celemia / Tukson / Thau (Broken link) / Atremus

    “A pessimist is one who feels bad when he feels good for fear he'll feel worse when he feels better.”

  2. #22
    Community Member zeonardo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by No_Dice View Post
    So you're concerned about the range between low and high saves, or more specifically, the "weak" saves not feeling low enough (brutes having too much will, casters having too much fort, etc...)

    Dispel is definitely something we'd like to look at as well
    Partially.
    Mobs stats and caster levels are inflated in general.

    BUT, when a caster mob waltz past your web (STR/REF) or a melee mob completely ignores your dancing spheres (WILL) you know you don't stand a chance to beat them on their main saves (to beat a caster mob on will save or a melee mob on fort save). Not even speaking about plain simple *immunities* and spell resistances.

    Balancing those stats would also need to consider at least have a difference between their fort/ref/will saves, allowing players to consider different spells and tactics based on the type or mob they face.
    I don't care...

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    It can certainly hurt to be on the receiving end of a nerf

  3. #23
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    I'm talking about E-BoB!!!
    NOT High Level Epic Elites!!!

    I joined the EE group on my then Lvl 20 1st life Cleric in Exalted Angel knowing that all I was going to be able to contribute to the group was Heals. {Melee DPS being negligible and about a 25% chance to Destruct or Implode anything meaning 200 SPs per kill!}

    Later on after running the entire VoN chain, Red Fens and Tide Turns on E-Hard I went back into E-BoB this time on EH rather than EE and with an entirely different group from said EE run and noticed that the General Manager still had 75k HP {it was 150 on EE!}

    Now I could be wrong but I thought that Elites were supposed to be quite a bit more than double the difficulty of Hard in this game and was expecting HP of around the 30k mark for said Boss in Said EH Quest!
    For EE 75k Would be about right!
    Now we had 0 issues with him on E-Hard even with those 75k HP - He wasn't hard to take down just time consuming! - Up his DPS if you like, Up his Trip DCs if you want to be sadistic Just DROP the Ridiculous HP totals!
    So you're judging thing from the perspective of what you describe as being a very weak toon?

  4. #24
    Community Member Book_O_Dragons's Avatar
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    Default Prestige Difficulty

    I view EE as a prestige difficulty.

    pres·tige [pre-steezh, -steej]
    noun
    1.
    reputation or influence arising from success, achievement, rank, or other favorable attributes.
    2.
    distinction or reputation attaching to a person or thing and thus possessing a cachet for others or for the public: The new discothèque has great prestige with the jet set.
    adjective
    3.
    having or showing success, rank, wealth, etc.
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Prestige
    Definition 2 as an adjective is how I am thinking about it.

    Back when the level cap was 20 I viewed players who could regularly complete Epic Sands quests as an elite group I looked up to and dreamed of joining. I could regularly complete the easier epics in house P and the Red Fens with my first life characters but in the Sands epics I was a net negative to a group, or at least I felt that way and felt I was getting better.
    Now I feel that players who can regularly complete EE quests are the elite group and dream of joining them BUT joining them feels so far beyond where I am that I despair of ever joining their ranks. Part of my despair is that the elite players are much more separate from the casual players in the epic levels now. I used to be able to put up an LFM for one of the epic quests I could do and there was a pretty good chance that an elite player would join but now an elite player won't seriously consider joining a group I feel comfortable making as it is too easy for them.
    The lower levels were a nice time for me when the LFM panel was full and build advice was easy to get during quests from the experienced players running TRs but it has gotten hard to find LFMs at all levels of gameplay.

    I feel that it is a good thing to have a difficulty that everyone needs to reach to play but the current reach is just too far.
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  5. #25
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Just a few notes about epic elite.

    I get more defensive benefit out of improved deception than I do from 150 AC.

    The best defensive layer by a very large margin is displacement for mobs it's effective against. The best layer of defense is granted to wizards, sorcerers and bards. Just something to think about. Other toons play the "30 second scroll game" which gets annoying very quickly.

    No matter what my defense is, mobs in EE will kill me fast. I can expect at any given time that up to 200 damage or more could hit me so my "danger zone" for hp is anything under 300. This means typically topping off my hp after just a few hits are scored on me. Not saying this is right or wrong, but burst healing plays a huge role in survival in EE when you are dead in less than 10 hits.

    A good stun DC has to pull multiple elements from many classes which leads at least in part to cookie cutter builds. Kensai power surge, divine might and legendary tactics are the three biggest ones. It's no wonder that 12 fighter/6 monk/2 pally is a very powerful melee. The fact that it leverages the three largest tactics bonuses doesn't even touch on the effect monk has on the build, but that's another topic.
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  6. #26
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    At one point, most of my endgame characters were fully geared--my wizard had every piece of DC boosting equipment available except for a +4 tome (this is prior to +5s being available...so, about a year and a half ago), and my melees were running around in most of the best gear available for their particular role(s). That's no longer the case, due in part to finding all of my efforts being made totally irrelevant with a single update, and then half the gear I was working towards after that being similarly obsoleted with an update not long thereafter.

    That said, I've retooled my rogue to be able to Assassinate: she has a +8 Int item, a +2 Insightful Int item, and +1 Exceptional Int, started with an 18, put all level-ups into Int, has a +5 tome, and spent 1/3rd of her Epic Destiny's ranks (Shadowdancer) on Int. She has either 3 or 4 AP in Int enhancements from the rogue class, and has all of the relevant DC-boosting abilities from the Assassin and Shadowdancer trees, and has Epic Midnight's Greetings. What that all means is that I'm about 6 DC shy of being maxed out--that's about 30% behind the head of the pack, and I'd say that in level 25+ EE content, I land an Assassinate 20-30% of the time on a lot of mobs. That's terrible given how much investment I've made, the long cooldown on the ability, and the set-up required. As far as damage lost, in order to consolidate stats, I've dumped Str and gone Dex-based, so at least I have Dex to damage, but it's received little investment, because everything has to go toward Int. Thus, I'm down roughly 7 damage per swing due to not heavily investing in Dex (level-ups, enhancements, etc...), and another 5 damage a swing due to not being Str-based (there are many more ways to boost Str than Dex, including but not limited to: Rage, Primal Scream, Madstone Rage, Demonic Might enhancement on some items).

    Perhaps not a great hardship, but for the investment made, the return has been fairly terrible. My Pale Master wizard, who used to be my second-best geared character (behind my paladin) has been collecting dust, since even in higher level EH content, death spells aren't landing with quite enough frequency, and are all but useless in EE. I tried changing over my spell list to be heavy on the debuffs with Crushing Despair, Fear (-2 auto-Shaken), Enervation SLA from Archmage, Enervation, Energy Drain, Symbol of Death...and I found that I was burning through SP on debuffs and still not landing death spells in EE. My wizard is roughly as well-pumped and geared as my rogue, but with more enhancements spent on Int, almost half her Destiny points being spent on Int, an Int twist, an epic feat spent on Int, and with basically the same gear (+8, +2, +1, +5 tome, +4 Necromancy item, Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, Epic Spell Focus). What this investment has meant is that my non-Necro DCs aren't terrible (thanks to the Int investment), but aren't effective due to lacking the bonuses to their spell schools from items, enhancements, and feats. And I'm not at all set-up to be nuking effectively, being in Magister. I could go into Draconic Incarnation, but I won't have the Fate points to twist in the +3 DC from Magister without going through several destinies, and I just can't bring myself to do so, and I won't go do the Shiradi thing.

    Next, because monster to-hit and damage are so high, along with their HP, I've also stopped playing my paladin, previously my primary character. My first character in DDO was a paladin, my first 32 pointer was a paladin, my first character to TR, my first character with multiple TRs, the one who got all the best gear (I gave my paladin an Epic Sword of Shadows instead of my barbarian!), and he's useless in EE. His AC of around 160 might as well be wet tissue paper; his PRR of something like 150 doesn't do enough against epic monsters hitting for 200+ to allow my self-healing (Cure Serious Wounds + Maximize + some spell power and enhancements along with somewhere around 85% healing amp, additively, Lay On Hands, Light the Dark) to really keep up, especially if I have to DPS the foe down myself. That would be bad enough, but his DPS is so pitiful while in Unyielding Sentinel that he's simply a waste of a party slot in EE quests. This is a character that used to be one of the premier tanks on my server. He tanked Elite Tower of Despair regularly, sometimes healing himself for short stretches when others ran into trouble. He solo'ed half of the second boss in ToD part 2 after everyone died (got the kiter back up so I wouldn't have to worry about the shadows), tanked Lord of Blades on hard regularly, and once on elite (I know, there are better tanks, but this was still impressive for a time), could tank the boss in Epic Chrono without a healer around, all back before the level cap went up, so no epic destinies, not running this stuff over-level. In 6-man groups, he could be counted on to Intimidate and hold aggro of groups to make things go smoother and easier for the rest of the party, or could swap to his ESoS when DPS was required and a shield was irrelevant. Now, he loses half of the bonuses from the Sacred Defender tree when the shield gets put away. He can barely handle the aggro of one tough monster on EE unless there is a healer available, and some one with real DPS beating on whichever monster he's holding aggro on, and Intimidate is useless in EE, since grabbing aggro of more than one enemy is a death sentence unless I have an excellent healer with me, and even then it's dicey.

    I thought part of the point of changing the whole combat system away from just using the d20 was to fix the problem later in the game where AC became useless due to over-inflated monster to-hit values, but we're right back where we were before the changes. Now, if you can't get 20% or more Dodge, have at minimum 20% concealment, and some Incorporeality, you're screwed, no matter what your AC and PRR are, and you're not getting that much Dodge in heavy armor.

    On my monk, I don't run EE content. He wasn't a Wis-focused build (his Wis only gets up to about 36 with the gear I have now), only has 1 fighter past life, so his Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm (and finishers) don't land, plus his previously semi-useful AC isn't, and he wasn't built to have 800+ HP, so he can't CC, can't insta-kill, and can't survive toe-to-toe with hard-hitting trash. When the cap was 20, when epics first came out, I used to run Epic Chains of Flame in short-man groups with 2 other monks and a bard, and used to help debuff bosses with the triple Dark finisher. He could tank raid bosses (ToD elite, LoB hard, Epic Chrono), and was fairly self-sufficient. Now, on the few EE runs I've done with him, he's lead the team in deaths. Sure, he's got some pretty good DPS, but it's irrelevant if you're dead.

    The only character I find myself playing with regularity now is my archer who got a lot of boosts with the enhancement pass (for which I'm glad), and who can solo the blue dragon/giant combo in EE Tor when the rest of the party wipes...unless I fail back to back Reflex saves (a possibility with my mediocre Reflex). He's the only character I have that can survive fairly well in EE, and that's mostly due to being able to stay out of attack range. And he has the DPS to be well worth the inclusion. I can take my rogue along in EE, but if she gets hit, she's probably dead. I can take my barbarian along, but he must have a party member who can and will heal him. My monk can do okay if I'm very careful about getting aggro, and make sure to stay on the backside of whatever I'm attacking, but only my archer can survive in EE without too much trouble or effort. It's not easy, mind you, just not especially difficulty, either.
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  7. #27
    Hopeless Romantic dunklezhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by No_Dice View Post
    So you're concerned about the range between low and high saves, or more specifically, the "weak" saves not feeling low enough (brutes having too much will, casters having too much fort, etc...)

    Dispel is definitely something we'd like to look at as well
    I would agree with that. A well built first lifer specialist should be able to land a charm/instakill/whathaveyou at least some of the time if targetting the 'right' kind of mobs without that mob having to roll a 1. Even on EE. But to get away with that kind of thing on the 'wrong' kind of mobs should take a very well geared or multi-TRd specialist.

    The difference between the two specialists without gear (i.e. feats, stats, PLs, 28-36 pt differences) shouldn't really add up to much more than 20pts (i.e. 1d20 roll) I think. If the saves between normal and hard on the 'right' kind of mobs stays within that sort of range, with gear making up a significant chunk of any extra, it would probably be reasonably balanced in terms of the two kinds of builds comparable power. I pulled those numbers out of my ass, but it feels nearish.

    As for the exact DCs... I'm not qualified to tell. I got to L21 on my 1st life charm archmage before I gave up and TRd, I don't even know what the DCs were I just knew they weren't landing or they were getting spell resisted more than 50% of the time so i simply gave up and decided to go back to heroic where I could enjoy myself a bit without needing to put in hours and hours of grind hoping the RNG goes in my favour for once for the right gear. So all I remember is that my specialist first lifer, with not-terrible named and lootgen gear looted from the run up to 20 and from what I could scrounge on the AH, couldn't get stuff to land on EN more than 50% of the time, and that was unfun.

    I would also really like to see an end to 'epic ward' type effects, where just because a mob in is a L20+ quest they have a flat immunity to particular effects, like stat damage. That really does annoy me. Or give the players a spell/buff that they can cast to get the same thing. Mobs should not, en masse, have what we can't have - though I'm fine with rednames or unusual mobs to have such immunities. Its blanket immunities that annoy me. Its not as bad as it used to be, but it's still lazy and unfun. I want to see harder difficulty mobs using different tactics, feats and spells. I want that feeling I had first time I ran into a kobold shaman on an otherwise familiar quest on elite, and went 'woah! When did they start throwing lightning bolts?!' I used to use that sort of thing as a selling point to get friends interested in DDO. At higher levels, it just doesn't feel like that. It just feels like 'inflate the HP and make them either immune to stuff or so resistance to it that they might as well be immune or saves so high they won't be affected anyway'. /dull. I play mostly heroic as a result. Which means I play alone, because everyone else seems to be up in epic levels (which is weird given that everyone does nothing but moan about them. Makes no sense to me. Come play heroic levels with me if your 'end game' isn't fun!).
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    The best of the best DDO players generally overperform when given a real challenge

  8. #28
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    The parabolic defense system fails at the higher levels, especially in EE. It may look like your character has a 70% chance at level, but the key words in that claim are AT LEVEL. When fighting mobs that are twice our level in many cases, the defense chance is drastically reduced to "you get hit most of the time". This has caused helpless state to be leaned on too heavily, because the second big issue - mobs hit too hard - is better mitigated by putting them into helpless and DPSing them than by having better defense. Sacrificing offense for defense works the worst, when it is needed most. A tank can be built that works well in EN and EH which justifies the offense sacrifice to gain the effective defense, but that same tank gets crushed in EE. The same high stunning blow/fist/cc builds that do well in EE, crush En and EH - and much more quickly than the tank does.

    Stat inflation needs to stop being leaned on as a synonym for increased difficulty. Boss mobs with 300khp in quests skip ludicrous and go straight to plaid. I feel like im playing tysons punch out on the NES. I have to hit this guy nine thousand times, but if he hits me once or twice im dead.

    Blanket immunities and wards should be removed. Mobs that are capable of buffing should have buffs that make sense, but arbitrary wards and such against some forms of CC, stat damage, and death spells is a flaw in game design, and doesnt really encourage balance but instead encourages pidgeonholing us into building for stuff that isnt warded against.
    Last edited by Chai; 03-06-2014 at 03:40 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  9. #29
    2016 DDO Players Council Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by No_Dice View Post
    Howdy!

    Senior systems designer and resident AI scripter here… I’m going to be assigning monsters their stats as well as their abilities/behaviors going forward, so in the same vein as Dr. Octothorpe’s loot post, you can now call me Dr. Frankenstein!

    I’d like to take this opportunity to query the community for an up-to-date feel for how y’all perceive the current state of monster stats.

    Some of the primary concerns that we see brought up on the forums are:
    1. Monster DC saves in 20+ content, and specifically in epic elite
    2. Monster hitpoints in 20+ content
    3. Monster damage when playing builds/classes that don’t have a ton of hit avoidance built in, and spike damage when you just get unlucky

    While it appears that y’all don’t agree on all of the details, there is enough discussion about these topics that we’d like to take a fresh look and identify the priority/scope of your concerns so any time spent addressing monster stats is focused on the right places. Are there any other areas of concern you’d like to see at the top of the list? Are there any more details you can give us in regard to the top 3 I just mentioned?
    *Disclaimer* I can’t promise this discussion will lead to any large adjustments in the next update, but It will help inform the direction of monster stats going forward!

    I’d love to hear about your builds, the numbers you can reasonably hit in regards to spell/ tactical feat DCs, and the monsters/difficulties you can’t affect with your build that you feel you should be able to.
    What is your DC on death spells? What about CC spells/abilities? How much damage potential have you given up in order to reach those DCs and how specialized is your build? What do your DCs look like on builds where you haven’t sacrificed any damage?

    For future development, we’re also looking into new ways to amp up the difficulty of monsters in high-level content to provide a challenge without overly-inflating their stats.
    Instead, we’re exploring ways other than damage and hitpoints to buff them which you can then overcome with equipment and smart use of abilities. Please share your ideas on this subject as well! I’m hoping to continue to make them smarter, scale more smoothly, have more abilities available, and work together in groups better, so please share ideas for AI as well as stats!

    Looking forward to reading your ideas/feedback!
    Finally! A thread I will really get involved with. /sigh my 15 minute break is too short to really put my 2¢ in. To be continued...
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    There is no winning or losing, but rather the value is in the experience of imagining yourself as a character in whatever genre you are involved in, whether its a fantasy game, the Wild West, secret agents or whatever else. You get to sort of vicariously experience those things.

    Role-playing isn't storytelling. If the dungeon master is directing it, its not a game.

    When AI approximates Machine Intelligence, than many online and computer run RPGs will move toward actual RPG activity. Nonetheless, that will not replace the experience of "being there" anymore than seeing a theatrical motion picture can replace the stage play.

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  10. #30
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    So you're judging thing from the perspective of what you describe as being a very weak toon?
    If you consider a 1st life pure cleric to be a "very weak toon" then yes I am!

    But I'm also talking about Lvl 20-22 Questing NOT High End Epic Elites!

    I'm also talking about a 1st life character who doesn't go into lvl 20-22 epics fully decked out with half a dozen fate points and a maxed out destiny!


    Why can't people accept that you're going to faceroll standard {and yes the old Lvl 20 Endgame Content is now just standard!} content with umpteen past lives, fully maxed destinies and half a dozen fate points?


    We still don't have a "Proper" Endgame and haven't since the Level cap went up to 25!

    When the Devs get around to giving us that end-game they can go crazy creating Insanely hard content for the Uber-Elite But levelling content is different!



    As an alternative suggestion the Devs could remove the Lvl 20 Barrier by Upping the XP given by Lvl 18-20 Heroic Quests to Epic Levels so that 1st Life Lvl 20s aren't forced into skipping 2-3 levels worth of content due to lack of groups!

  11. #31
    Community Member Chaimberland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post


    it really is, the biggest issue is "Tanks" are complete worthless gimps 99% of the time with not nearly as much damage mitigation that they should have in relation to their lack of DPS.

    .
    99% of stats are made up on the spot 83% of the time.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    I'm talking about E-BoB!!!
    NOT High Level Epic Elites!!!

    I joined the EE group on my then Lvl 20 1st life Cleric in Exalted Angel knowing that all I was going to be able to contribute to the group was Heals. {Melee DPS being negligible and about a 25% chance to Destruct or Implode anything meaning 200 SPs per kill!}

    Later on after running the entire VoN chain, Red Fens and Tide Turns on E-Hard I went back into E-BoB this time on EH rather than EE and with an entirely different group from said EE run and noticed that the General Manager still had 75k HP {it was 150 on EE!}

    Now I could be wrong but I thought that Elites were supposed to be quite a bit more than double the difficulty of Hard in this game and was expecting HP of around the 30k mark for said Boss in Said EH Quest!
    For EE 75k Would be about right!
    Now we had 0 issues with him on E-Hard even with those 75k HP - He wasn't hard to take down just time consuming! - Up his DPS if you like, Up his Trip DCs if you want to be sadistic Just DROP the Ridiculous HP totals!

    The main question is, do you think it is reasonable to expect a group of POSSIBLY undergeared low level characters in destinies that are not optimized to be able to just roll through any EE quest?

    Do you realize just how much damage a really solid DPS focused character can dish-out?
    You are suggesting the EH boss to have ~40K hp and EE to have 75K hp?

    I completely agree with what troll says below. In MY opinion an unprepared group with no destinies or gear should fail EE quests barring massive player skill. How else are they going to get better?

    Stormraiser

  13. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    The SP drain in CiTW is ********.
    This one pure idiocy. It's manageable in EN, it's hurting in EH and it's completely idiotic in EE. One hit and you're completely SP drained. For all your SP. It's so dumb it makes the idea of doing citw on EE a bore. I HAVE to drink a pot every single time I use a caster because every encounter with Lolth will end up with all your SP gone. No need to conserve anything, just spam as much as you can because when you get drained, you're done. That's not a challenge. It ranks up there with poison as 'viable' which is just a boring bunch of stat damage without any real challenge added.

  14. #34
    Community Member avepepix's Avatar
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    I think the fist question would be. A first life maxed, no matter his class. Can win EE?
    If the answer its no, then no matter the DC for that toon, no matter the monster stats.

    The second question. A TR toon, can win EE?
    If the answer its, only a well balanced party at max lvl can do EE, then the DC and the monster stats maybe its too high.

    I have a TR a pure 19 wiz, with focus on enchant and maxed till now the DC. I cant enchant the 70% of the mob i fight. So, maybe im wrong and it dosent supouse an enchanter can enchant anything at lvl, the 50% of the time.
    I have to cast 3 hold monster to, hold a monster. Hold a wiz at lvl its harder, 5 o 6 hold.
    Hipnotize works the 90% of the time... How a lvl 1 spell can hit a target and a lvl 7 spell no?

  15. #35
    Community Member Satyriasys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by No_Dice View Post
    Howdy!
    Speaking as a Palemaster I think the fort saves on epic hard could be increased just a tad. For epic elite I think they are sorta ok, BUT I have had to get max int in my destinies including twists. So maybe decrease them just a tad if you would like PMs more destiny options. I noticed the next update includes many orange named and undead which diminish the usefulness of a PM, not sure if this is an alternative to boosting their saves but I do not like this direction. As someone who has built my character around my necro DC I feel extremely useless in the new content. So I would suggest fewer orange named mobs in general.

    The Arcane Spellsurge ability in the Magister tree is an under utilized mechanic in my opinion. It should increase DC's a bit more and lower the cooldown a bit which would give casters the ability to land their DC's more reliably but only once in awhile.

    Regarding monster HP, In the Stormhorns and Wheloon it is way too high on most of the bosses/mini-bosses. I am glad to hear you are looking for alternative methods of creating challenge and I know it is a tricky thing.

    Monster damage I feel is good right now in Epic Elite and maybe could use a slight boost in Epic Hard.

    Also, please make sure that only mobs who have evasion are mobs who should have evasion! Giving arbitrary monsters evasion as a method of increasing their challenge is not expectable.
    Last edited by Satyriasys; 03-06-2014 at 04:13 PM.
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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaimberland View Post
    99% of stats are made up on the spot 83% of the time.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKiSPUc2Jck
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  17. #37
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Some suggestions:

    Change Death Ward and Deathblock to work like the changes to Neutralize/Proof Against Poison, where instead of immunity, they grant a bonus to saves against Death spells and "no auto-fail on a rolled natural 1." Then increase the prevalence of these buffs a bit (not everywhere, just more than we see them now), and reduce monster saves enough that you don't need absolutely every bonus in the game and have to be Wis-, or Int-based on a melee in order to land your tactics or special abilities. You can use Death Ward in places where you don't want Pale Masters to plow through mobs, but also don't want everything to be effectively immune to the Fort save based abilities of everyone else.

    There are fewer Will-save-based abilities that aren't spells, but if you're concerned about lowering Will saves because of Mass Hold Monster, you could change Freedom of Movement to work as Death Ward described above. That would also allow you to reinstate FoM's ability to help defend us against Earth Grab.

    Scale all of the monk's and rogue's ability DCs to match Stunning Fist/Assassinate, including having epic levels, abilities, enhancements, feats, and items scale those DCs along with their premier effects. It's frustrating and disappointing to have to clear my hotbars when I start running tougher Epic content on my monk and rogue because all of the abilities I'd be using for heroic levels and lower-tier epics are now worthless (monk finishing moves, Shining Star, Assassin poisons, etc...) thanks to their DCs ceasing to scale entirely at level 20.

    Reduce to-hit across the board for monsters enough that 160 AC is actually meaningful (should account for between a 30% and a 75% miss chance). Remember, the only thing that having a super-high to-hit does is stop the characters who heavily invest in AC (typically at the expense of their offensive abilities) from being able to enjoy themselves. All those characters who eschew AC entirely to focus on DPS while using Dodge, Concealment, and Incorporeality for their defense are entirely unaffected by high to-hit bonuses. So, all this does is punish people in heavy armor and those using a shield.

    Find ways to increase challenge and difficulty without tacking on 10s of thousands of HP and jacking damage through the roof. Sure, some creatures should be hitting for 200 a swing, but not all of them. Monsters that hit for much less damage per swing, but also swing a lot faster can also be dangerous. Creatures that can CC us are dangerous. Improve AI to be less predictable and less exploitable. Monsters need to be able to deal with characters attacking them from outside their reach better.

    Absolutely DO NOT pair a high HP with weak combat abilities. There are few things as tediously boring in this game as having to whittle down something with 80,000+ HP that poses no threat whatsoever.

    This game is supposed to feature active combat, but often doesn't utilize the engine very well. Give some monsters very dangerous attacks, but ones that come out slowly enough, and with enough of a "tell" that we can react to them, either trying to move out of the way, or blocking. We can tumble in the game, and there are a lot of abilities that want us to be tumbling in combat (grant bonuses during or after the tumble), but almost no reason to ever do so--tumbling in a fight means one thing: less DPS. However, if we were seeing monster attacks that we really don't want to get hit by, that we had a reasonable shot at avoiding by doing a back- or side-flip, tumbling might actually be useful. Of course, something also needs to be done about lag here, since that effectively stops reactionary strategies from working. The Lord of Blades was an interesting fight due in part to his dangerous attacks that we could react to. Now, those attacks had a few things going on, requiring not only the person with aggro to either block or get out of the way, but also everyone without aggro to quickly react and stop attacking, lest they grab his now very fluid attention. The LoB's attacks were somewhat varied, not only having different effects, but coming out at different speeds, and with different tells. I'd like to see much more of that.

    More enemies need to have True Seeing.

    We need healing resources that can do an adequate job of keeping our characters without self-healing alive. Right now, barbarians are the worst class in the game by an enormous margin because their only ways to heal themselves are by using expensive and detrimental Silver Flame potions that take up an inordinate amount of our inventory space (these should have been updated long ago), or by splashing 4 levels of cleric to get Ameliorating Strike. Everyone else basically requires Rejuvenation Cocoon twisted in and/or enough UMD to use Heal scrolls and, ideally, ranks in Wand and Scroll Mastery. If you're okay with these healing resources being a requirement for melees, you need to allow barbarians to use Cocoon.
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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    I'm also talking about a 1st life character who doesn't go into lvl 20-22 epics fully decked out with half a dozen fate points and a maxed out destiny!
    I think that specific character should FAIL EE quests with other people similar to him. Just because someone made it to level 20, doesn't mean they inherit the ability to beat hard at level quests.

    BoB isn't one of the easiest EE quests, especially if groups underestimate the crippling effects and take too much at once.

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  19. #39
    Founder Krell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    No, they are not.



    No, you need to build better toons and run with better people.

    Sorry, this is gonna **** some people off but it is true. Go into the EEs with 4 toons that are actually good DPS toons and you will see the HP are reasonable for our inflated damage outputs.

    HOWEVER . . . go in to high level EEs with a bunch of mooks in Sentinel . . . . ARRRGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!! The pain!!!! it's friggin horrible. And stupidly Turbine has crafted an "end-game" where the best practice IS TO SPEND THE MAJORITY OF YOUR TIME IN A GIMPED ED.

    Who the hell though this was good game design?
    I do agree with the point about having to spend most your time in an epic destiny that is different that what you would prefer, in order to level them up. I would like to see "claim this destiny for abilities" and another "claim this destiny for advancement" which would credit XP towards that destiny. To relate this to the topic, DCs are off for optimized builds, and having to spend most your time in a non-optimal destiny only adds to the problem.
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  20. #40
    Community Member Satyriasys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    This is how I see it. You should be able to max out your DC effort on EE so that it lands reliably (say 80 of the time) - after all if you go the way of TRing and getting really good skills and gear it should be like you're rewarded for the effort.

    Second, this is many time a question of class. Meaning that some classes can manage to get an amazing amount in DC for what they're doing and others are out of luck. Like arti's - there's a reason why arti's gravitate towards force and acid. Because it's 'homing' bolts from the rune arm and there's no save like on almost all other upper end rune arms. Worst; there's no way to boost the acid spell power enhancement line so in the end the only viable rune arm is the force one.
    It's simply near impossible to boost any other rune arm so much (such as the fire based ones) to hit and not be saved. The dilemma is therefore one several choices being reduced down to one. Arguably this DC issue boils down to one of casters and such and not so much Arti's but I wanted to throw that in there too. Arti's are pretty much skunked by the time you hit 20. I can't do much as far as EE goes to get my tactical detonations and anything else other than acid and force to hit.

    I think the silliest effect of this can be seen fighting things like zombies. Saving nearly everything. Or when you knock something down (with tactical deto it's not considered prone) and they can still save. I makes no sense. EE = massive stat inflation, so much so you create super saving HP bags.
    This

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Here's the issues regarding high-level EE content . . .

    Too much is reliant on the ability to make mobs helpless.

    The HP aren't an issue when you can stun/hold/overwhelming-forc/pin/whistle/nerve venom every trash mob you see. Seriously, real-DPS toons chew them up with all the stuff we get from horcness, no mercy, sense weakness, teir 5 thingy from LD, etc . . .

    CC'd mobs also cannot hit back, thus it is the best form of damage mitigation. As I'll pontificate below mobs just hit too damaged hard and our defense system leaves a lot to be desired. CC'ing mobs is critical to survival.

    Some classes in ED have easyish means of CCd. Kensai with high stunning blow DC, monks, Tempest Rangers in Fury for Overwhelming force, casterss . . . bring one of those in EEs and you are fine. BUT if you're current setup, often being run because of the ******** karma farming, isn't synergistic with this it just plain sucks.

    Our helpless damage probably shouldn't be as much as it is . . . and it shouldn't be necessary to make mobs helpless. other options should be more viable.

    The defensive system is a friggin joke.

    it really is, the biggest issue is "Tanks" are complete worthless gimps 99% of the time with not nearly as much damage mitigation that they should have in relation to their lack of DPS.

    This is a topic for a whole other thread but we need a second defensive pass.

    Casting Divines are gimps.

    The whole game's dynamic fell apart right before EGH. There was always an un-written rule that it was okay for Divines to be a little over-powered because with that power came the resonsibilty of healing the melees. Next thing we know a maxed implosion DC can't kill squat and incoming damage is so high that you couldn't power-heal people through stuff if you wanted to.

    This leads to the rise of the BYOH FoTM builds because it's really the only option. Good or bad . . . fewer viable options makes for a weaker game.


    Mobs hit too hard in EE


    In other news the sun rises in the east, water is wet, and trolls DO NOT have nipples. biggest issue is this lowers the pool of viable builds. You pretty much need to be able to survive 2-3 hits and be able to hjeal yourself to full with the press of a button. A lower pool of viable builds is bad for DDO.


    Mob casting DCs are retardedly high.


    It's gotten friggin ridiculous, we should NOT have to splash paladin in order to make more than 5% of our saves. I'm sorry but this is just friggin stupid. Nerf Divine Grace to make it a resistance bonus unless you have like 8 levels of pally and lower the caster DCs. That 70ish DC Flesh to Stone in WGU is a death sentence to most who don't use certain borderline exploits to achieve god-mode.


    Divine might


    If you don't have this drop stunning blow. I'm sorry it's broken that this is needed for a Kensai to get viable stunning as you cannot get your DC high enough any other way. Divine might should be nerfed to a straight damage bonus (this also un-screws DEX and CON-based people) and the Stunning blow formula should be re-worked to not require sure a high STR if you have everything else boosting it. And while you're at it the Stunning blow 15 second cooldown is stupid since Stunning fist is only 6 seconds. that could lead to another P2W monk tirade . . .

    A few insanely stupid encounters . . .


    There is no way in hell EE Thrill of the Hunt was play tested. I don't believe that for one second. Sure, it's easy to beat if you're a cheesy bastard but it still an insanely stupid encounter.

    Why put junk like this in the game? You done this for so long . . . starting with the early epics which were so stupid you pretty much had to cheat to beat them. You know what that got you? And exploitive culture. When you put stupid encounters in the game where the best practice for beating them is ******** you get a game culture where people get numb to exploitative play.

    Dumb **** in raids.


    The SP drain in CiTW is ********. Whoever thought that was a good idea should be fired. Same with the "traps" in FOT . . . kill an undead mob and it exploits for more HP than any toon has? Seriously if you have to resort to such cheap garbage to add challenge find a new line of employment.



    I'm sure I'll have more later, but the halflings are finished roasting and I need some lunch.
    Also this is dead on..

    I would also like to add having a few mobs with insane hp is ok if that is their flavor but inflating them across the board as a means of increased challenge is poor design.
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