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  1. #1
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    Default for range dps, arti, rogue or both?

    Hi guys

    Been wanting to create a range xbow repeater toon.
    Was wandering if
    1) rogue is the best?
    2) arti is the king?
    3) mix of both, using INT as main stat for both hit and damage.

    So far i went rogue, level 9, drow for max INT, while keeping a decent DEX.
    Any input from high level would be good.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Choopak View Post
    Hi guys

    Been wanting to create a range xbow repeater toon.
    Was wandering if
    1) rogue is the best?
    2) arti is the king?
    3) mix of both, using INT as main stat for both hit and damage.

    So far i went rogue, level 9, drow for max INT, while keeping a decent DEX.
    Any input from high level would be good.
    Depends. Are you counting rune arm damage and spells as ranged damage or are you thinking just crossbow? The runearm alone adds a ton of ranged damage and increases in power the more artificer levels you have as does the higher level arti spells. Personally, I don't splash more than two levels of rogue (if I want evasion but don't want monk) on an arti life. In terms of overall ranged damage, arti is the way to go, imho.

    If you want mainly a rogue, splash at least four levels of arti to get rune arm imbues, insightful strikes, elemental weapons, and an extra feat.

  3. #3
    Community Member Panzermeyer's Avatar
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    Having had a pure rogue with some rxbows, and a pure arti. As far as ranged damage is concerned arti definitely way out paces rogues. The rune arm as a tremendous amount of ranged dps and endless fusilade particularly on a 20 lvl + in Fury is amazing damage. Tactical Det is great crowd control, particularly since it does not seem to need the same uber high DC's to be effective in the greatest difficulties.

    I really would not splash more than 2 rogue in an arti, and only for evasion. But that is a tough call. Artis at cap get 4 6th lvl spells. There are 4 6th lvl spells always worth carrying (tactial det, BB, reconstruct, and deadly). So I have avoided splashing my artis.

    Rogues I think can possibly out-class artis in overall damage, but that is through SA and/or assassinate damage in a more up close and personal fashion.

    But if you go half-elf you can get the rogue dilli and with a 2 rogue splash you can gain some significant SA damage for an arti ranged build.
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  4. #4
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    ..and all of the Rangers held their heads in shame....
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  5. #5
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panzermeyer View Post
    But if you go half-elf you can get the rogue dilli and with a 2 rogue splash you can gain some significant SA damage for an arti ranged build.
    Why would you take rog dilly on a rog splash?

  6. #6
    Community Member Todkaninchen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panzermeyer View Post
    Having had a pure rogue with some rxbows, and a pure arti. As far as ranged damage is concerned arti definitely way out paces rogues. The rune arm as a tremendous amount of ranged dps and endless fusilade particularly on a 20 lvl + in Fury is amazing damage. Tactical Det is great crowd control, particularly since it does not seem to need the same uber high DC's to be effective in the greatest difficulties.

    I really would not splash more than 2 rogue in an arti, and only for evasion. But that is a tough call. Artis at cap get 4 6th lvl spells. There are 4 6th lvl spells always worth carrying (tactial det, BB, reconstruct, and deadly). So I have avoided splashing my artis.

    Rogues I think can possibly out-class artis in overall damage, but that is through SA and/or assassinate damage in a more up close and personal fashion.

    But if you go half-elf you can get the rogue dilli and with a 2 rogue splash you can gain some significant SA damage for an arti ranged build.
    Have run a pure rogue mechanic to 22, a couple of rogue 18/arti 2's, a couple of pure arti lives into epics...

    If you have exceptional gear that turns on the sneak attack damage and are willing and able to get close to the fight, the rogue mechanic has the advantage (assuming a max INT/DEX build in both arti and rogue). But, we're talking a deception item, an improved deception item, armor piercing items, etc. For bows, we're talking a radiance II GS bow or one of the nightshade venom bows (with enough debuffers to get the enemy saves down), someone popping glitterdust for you, etc.

    The alchemical grenades in the rogue mech tree help out a bit as well, plus starting with the enemy "squishies" first also helps.

    What an arti does--like Panzermeyer says--is more AOE damage and some really heavy single target damage with rune arm which--often--is overkill on a single target. Burning the spell points also probably does more for the team effort than what a rogue mechanic does, especially if you heighten/max the arti SLA's. Popping a heightened/maxed Blast Rod cast through a doorway is almost like having a second rune arm and only burns 6SP to do it. Also, an arti can make do with fewer specialized bows than a rogue mechanic.

    The instant CC-type spells like prismatic strike and tactical det (and the lightning sphere SLA heightened at lower levels) are definitely a help in party damage production and survival that rogue mechs don't get.

    So, I would agree, overall in a party, a well-built ranged arti is probably going to do more overall damage by both what he does directly and what he helps his party do. For a one-on-one though, with optimal gear, the rogue mech is probably going to get more kills and do more single-target damage doing it.

    (I also agree on avoiding splashing things into an arti. With radient forcefield, the proper elemental resists, and ablative armor and/or stoneskin, you can usually mitigate a lot of trap damage on a high-DEX arti. While it's not evasion, it's enough to manage with light heals and it means not mucking up the DC's of your critical spells or shaving damage off the top of your rune arm damage as well. Plus, the Arcanotech capstone is still awesome.)

    (For a rogue mech, though, a 2 arti level splash gets you up to 2d12 added force damage at level 20, no worries on bolt logistics, and a boost to crossbow damage and some trapping skills in return for the loss of +1 to hit, +1 damage, +1 to all trapping skills, 2d6 sneak attack, maybe a few last skill points in haggle or something, and a last rogue special ability. DPS-wise, it's a good choice. Logistics-wise probably a good choice.)

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Todkaninchen View Post
    Have run a pure rogue mechanic to 22, a couple of rogue 18/arti 2's, a couple of pure arti lives into epics...

    If you have exceptional gear that turns on the sneak attack damage and are willing and able to get close to the fight, the rogue mechanic has the advantage (assuming a max INT/DEX build in both arti and rogue). But, we're talking a deception item, an improved deception item, armor piercing items, etc. For bows, we're talking a radiance II GS bow or one of the nightshade venom bows (with enough debuffers to get the enemy saves down), someone popping glitterdust for you, etc.

    The alchemical grenades in the rogue mech tree help out a bit as well, plus starting with the enemy "squishies" first also helps.

    What an arti does--like Panzermeyer says--is more AOE damage and some really heavy single target damage with rune arm which--often--is overkill on a single target. Burning the spell points also probably does more for the team effort than what a rogue mechanic does, especially if you heighten/max the arti SLA's. Popping a heightened/maxed Blast Rod cast through a doorway is almost like having a second rune arm and only burns 6SP to do it. Also, an arti can make do with fewer specialized bows than a rogue mechanic.

    The instant CC-type spells like prismatic strike and tactical det (and the lightning sphere SLA heightened at lower levels) are definitely a help in party damage production and survival that rogue mechs don't get.

    So, I would agree, overall in a party, a well-built ranged arti is probably going to do more overall damage by both what he does directly and what he helps his party do. For a one-on-one though, with optimal gear, the rogue mech is probably going to get more kills and do more single-target damage doing it.

    (I also agree on avoiding splashing things into an arti. With radient forcefield, the proper elemental resists, and ablative armor and/or stoneskin, you can usually mitigate a lot of trap damage on a high-DEX arti. While it's not evasion, it's enough to manage with light heals and it means not mucking up the DC's of your critical spells or shaving damage off the top of your rune arm damage as well. Plus, the Arcanotech capstone is still awesome.)

    (For a rogue mech, though, a 2 arti level splash gets you up to 2d12 added force damage at level 20, no worries on bolt logistics, and a boost to crossbow damage and some trapping skills in return for the loss of +1 to hit, +1 damage, +1 to all trapping skills, 2d6 sneak attack, maybe a few last skill points in haggle or something, and a last rogue special ability. DPS-wise, it's a good choice. Logistics-wise probably a good choice.)
    Thanks a lot for the resume, i have a level 9 rogue, drow right now... Should i multiclass into arti now? And if yes, how many levels? According to your suggestion, at least 2 levels.... But 4 levels give you endless fusilade.
    My gear is far from optimal, some good, some average... I'm vip, so all races, classes, PDK, and blaforged.
    One last thing: is drow a good race? Seems obvious for assassin rogue, not as much for a split....

    Thanks again!
    Last edited by Choopak; 03-05-2014 at 11:50 PM.

  8. #8
    Community Member Panzermeyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Choopak View Post
    Thanks a lot for the resume, i have a level 9 rogue, drow right now... Should i multiclass into arti now? And if yes, how many levels? According to your suggestion, at least 2 levels.... But 4 levels give you endless fusilade.
    My gear is far from optimal, some good, some average... I'm vip, so all races, classes, PDK, and blaforged.
    One last thing: is drow a good race? Seems obvious for assassin rogue, not as much for a split....

    Thanks again!
    Difficult to say now that you are into it without planning something out to take into account what you already have.

    Drow is definitely a good race for either a rogue or arti. Both classes can be INT/DEX based builds. Drows can start with the highest in each of the races. Only question is did you? Drow will shine the most having them start with a 20 INT. But not a huge deal, if you did not cause you can use the racial enhancement line to boost INT.

    Only real trouble with drow is that they are more squishy with the lower con typically.

    But with the racial bonuses as a rogue Drow can make a good piercing sneak attack build with rapiers, short swords and daggers.

    Have you checked out the character planner?
    Panzermeyer - Huge Terry Brooks Shannara Fan

    Main
    Jelara Shannara - Morning Lord Warlock
    (TR XXI - Barb x3, Drd x3, FvS x3, Pal x3, Rgr x1, Rog x2, Sorc x3, Wiz x3 - EtR XII - Epic Completionist - ItR III - PDK x3)
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panzermeyer View Post
    Difficult to say now that you are into it without planning something out to take into account what you already have.

    Drow is definitely a good race for either a rogue or arti. Both classes can be INT/DEX based builds. Drows can start with the highest in each of the races. Only question is did you? Drow will shine the most having them start with a 20 INT. But not a huge deal, if you did not cause you can use the racial enhancement line to boost INT.

    Only real trouble with drow is that they are more squishy with the lower con typically.

    But with the racial bonuses as a rogue Drow can make a good piercing sneak attack build with rapiers, short swords and daggers.

    Have you checked out the character planner?
    this toon is a 3rd lifer (bard and rogue past) so 36 points build, start with max INT: 20
    Was planning a range/assassin, range for usual dps, assassinate for quick kills. I realize i really like repeaters and might drop the entire assassin side.
    So a splash arti (even ranger) would not hurt.
    Drow are a bit more squishy (14 CON) but worse case, i'll level to 20 and re TR (maybe even go iconic to restart at level 15)
    I've run a few builds on character builder, but without proper testing and feeback... It's hsrd to know for sure.

    Thanks again

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