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  1. #1
    2014 DDO Players Council ishr's Avatar
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    Default New Raids Too Easy

    Thanks to the absence of character copy I think that the difficulty of these new raids is set too low. Shortman rolling up in there with U12-geared flavor toons and crushing it on the first try without any prior raid knowledge diminishes the replay value of this raid. Can we up this a bit before the raids hit live? At least on EH and EE? Aside from the fact that there is no challenge, this kind of easy-pz design is not going to sell you more TP, people will just leave the game faster.

    In developing an endgame (which should be the goal of this year), we should have raids with STAYING POWER. The main way to do this is by making the raids CHALLENGING and INTERESTING.

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    /signed

    Make some raid that I won't be able to solo!

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by ishr View Post
    Shortman rolling up in there with U12-geared flavor toons and crushing it on the first try without any prior raid knowledge diminishes the replay value of this raid. Can we up this a bit before the raids hit live? At least on EH and EE?
    You crushed it short-man, first try, flavor toons, on EE? If so, then, yes, make it harder.

    Or are you asking for EE to be made harder based on an EN experience? If so, then...why would you say such a thing, based on no real data about how hard EE is or isn't?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ishr View Post
    Thanks to the absence of character copy I think that the difficulty of these new raids is set too low. Shortman rolling up in there with U12-geared flavor toons and crushing it on the first try without any prior raid knowledge diminishes the replay value of this raid. Can we up this a bit before the raids hit live? At least on EH and EE? Aside from the fact that there is no challenge, this kind of easy-pz design is not going to sell you more TP, people will just leave the game faster.

    In developing an endgame (which should be the goal of this year), we should have raids with STAYING POWER. The main way to do this is by making the raids CHALLENGING and INTERESTING.
    Videos please.
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    Community Member Satyriasys's Avatar
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    The Dojo characters may not be optimal but they have unlimited resources.
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    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ishr View Post
    In developing an endgame (which should be the goal of this year), we should have raids with STAYING POWER. The main way to do this is by making the raids CHALLENGING and INTERESTING.
    No, it's all about loot. If the loot is fine nobody will care about anything else.

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    The Hatchery GeneralDiomedes's Avatar
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    There are enough people playing to fill a raid?

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    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeneralDiomedes View Post
    There are enough people playing to fill a raid?
    With loot like this there will be.

  9. #9
    The Hatchery Cernunan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    No, it's all about loot. If the loot is fine nobody will care about anything else.
    Have to agree with this.
    All depends on perspective. Who are these raids designed for?

    Having an uber hard end game raid in the current gaming community with be mostly a waste of time. Sure a small number of elite raiding guilds will enjoy it for a while, but to attract the vast majority of players to participate the raids will need to be much more accessible to the broader population, who want a shroud/reaver type raid that is farm-able and mildly entertaining.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    You crushed it short-man, first try, flavor toons, on EE? If so, then, yes, make it harder.

    Or are you asking for EE to be made harder based on an EN experience? If so, then...why would you say such a thing, based on no real data about how hard EE is or isn't?
    Why would you bother with EE? or even EH...?
    Go in on EN with 4-5 friends / guildies, everyone brings a piker (bot), it's 4 chests per person = profit.
    There is no difference in items or ingredient types, you just get 1 more chest on harder diff. With fast and easy completions on normal you are already better with bots.

  11. #11
    2014 DDO Players Council
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yalinaa View Post
    Why would you bother with EE? or even EH...?
    Not saying you would or wouldn't; that's beside the point.

    The OP was specifically asking for EE to be harder, and I was asking whether that was based on experience playing EE.

  12. #12
    Community Member lyrecono's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    No, it's all about loot. If the loot is fine nobody will care about anything else.
    This, first and foremost, just this4

    Quote Originally Posted by ishr View Post
    Thanks to the absence of character copy I think that the difficulty of these new raids is set too low. Shortman rolling up in there with U12-geared flavor toons and crushing it on the first try without any prior raid knowledge diminishes the replay value of this raid. Can we up this a bit before the raids hit live? At least on EH and EE? Aside from the fact that there is no challenge, this kind of easy-pz design is not going to sell you more TP, people will just leave the game faster.

    In developing an endgame (which should be the goal of this year), we should have raids with STAYING POWER. The main way to do this is by making the raids CHALLENGING and INTERESTING.
    that might just be the reason why they choose to disable the character copy, to balance it out to power gamers and the casual slacker.
    As for staying power: the gear is hardly worth it last time i checked, raiding guilds (realy???) will farm it for 2 weeks, get their toy and leave it as it is, returning to (e)tr-ing.
    The not so "good" players will have their reforms after failed normal runs, just like what is happening now in fot (seriously, the reformed using the lfm twice after a failed run, didn't we used to have mentor programs?)



    Quote Originally Posted by Yalinaa View Post
    Why would you bother with EE? or even EH...?
    Go in on EN with 4-5 friends / guildies, everyone brings a piker (bot), it's 4 chests per person = profit.
    There is no difference in items or ingredient types, you just get 1 more chest on harder diff. With fast and easy completions on normal you are already better with bots.
    this is how most gamers view the game.
    spreadsheets, calculators etc, going for the min-max approach.
    turbie makes EE mobs have high hp/saves/dps output to allow for tanks? a large chunk of the EE tr crowd switches to monckers/cetus builds and shiradi sorcs. It blew up in their face
    same will happen with the new raid...
    highly skilled& geared players like the op complaining about it being to easy, resulting in newbies failing normal runs frequently.
    Just accept that your their better and replace all your gear for random loot gen gear for raids.

  13. #13
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lyrecono View Post
    that might just be the reason why they choose to disable the character copy, to balance it out to power gamers and the casual slacker.
    Am I the only one that finds the use of the word "slacker" to describe a person who doesn't spend a great deal of time playing DDO ironic?

  14. #14
    Community Member Shorlong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ishr View Post
    Thanks to the absence of character copy I think that the difficulty of these new raids is set too low. Shortman rolling up in there with U12-geared flavor toons and crushing it on the first try without any prior raid knowledge diminishes the replay value of this raid. Can we up this a bit before the raids hit live? At least on EH and EE? Aside from the fact that there is no challenge, this kind of easy-pz design is not going to sell you more TP, people will just leave the game faster.

    In developing an endgame (which should be the goal of this year), we should have raids with STAYING POWER. The main way to do this is by making the raids CHALLENGING and INTERESTING.
    Wait, you think we geared our toons using the loot room in the dojo? Pfffft. No. We used dev handouts of raid loot mixed with EE Gianthold, High Road and Storm Horns loot in the AH. Not to mention unlimited TP and shards for infinite repairs and sp refills, spirit cakes (not used in raids, of course) and hp potions to our hearts content. Also, full dragonscale outfits, helms, fully upgraded CitW loot, +5 supreme tomes (there were literally HUNDREDS of them littered on the floors during the dev events....)

    That being said, the first run through we had on the first night raids were live, we had a full party, including a dev. If it wasn't for Steel being there, we would have wiped, easily. We were on EN. We didn't know the raid, I think we ended with something like 94 deaths total. There were a few character copies in that group (character copy broke after the ETR update, and they haven't wiped since then, so a lot of people had brought their toons over for ETR and still had them).

    So no, I don't think that it was a shortman group of U12-geared flavor toons crushing it on the first try. Hell, I think (and could be wrong) that even Teth didn't shortman it until after he had done it at least once before, and even then it still took them a long time...and again, UNLIMITED RESOURCES!

    I would say, from what I had seen, based on how I play on live versus what I had on Lam, the balance was pretty good on Normal. It wasn't crushed, but it was beatable. Not easily beatable, but beatable. I see a lot of players having issues with it. And as said earlier in this thread, people still fail EN FoT. Not everyone is an uber gamer. The balance has to go down far enough for those players and up high enough for the super awesome uber players.
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  15. #15
    Community Member Shorlong's Avatar
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    Here is the xp box from the first run of the raid...

    Shorlong - Pale Master, Cevon - Druid Archer, Gorgnak - Barbarian, Addanc - Bear Tank, Juristash - Shadar Kai Assassin, Treiah - Morninglord Tempest Ranger, Baylfyre - CC Bard, Deimanus - Bladeforged Melee Arti, Daerian - Healing Cleric Morninglord, Krazig - Pally Tank, Veriste - Shadar Kai Death Knight, Xanapheia - TWF FVS, Helainia - Shadar Kai Henshin-Theif

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  16. #16
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
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    Cool. Council says too easy, yells in the forum, people jump on the bandwagon and other players like me fear that this might have an impact against my own favor.

    OP, please elaborate, why it is too easy. A completion after the 1st try may be totally fine as to the degree of success. As Shorlong's copied picture shows. I consider 93 deaths a total challenge. Completion back and forth but if it looked similar to that copied box, the challenge is quite high.

    If you had 0 deaths and all bonuses however, that was a different story. But you do nothing but yelling an absolute and subjective impression. Thank you Turbine for selecting people like the OP into an influential position.
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  17. #17
    2014 DDO Players Council
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    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
    Cool. Council says too easy, yells in the forum, people jump on the bandwagon and other players like me fear that this might have an impact against my own favor.
    <snip>
    Thank you Turbine for selecting people like the OP into an influential position.
    I think you have an exaggerated notion of the influence of a Council member.

    If & when Turbine wants the opinions of the Player's Council, they ask them in the restricted Player's Council forum section.

    A Council member ranting in the open forums is no different than anybody else ranting in the open forums.

  18. #18
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
    Cool. Council says too easy, yells in the forum, people jump on the bandwagon and other players like me fear that this might have an impact against my own favor.

    OP, please elaborate, why it is too easy. A completion after the 1st try may be totally fine as to the degree of success. As Shorlong's copied picture shows. I consider 93 deaths a total challenge. Completion back and forth but if it looked similar to that copied box, the challenge is quite high.

    If you had 0 deaths and all bonuses however, that was a different story. But you do nothing but yelling an absolute and subjective impression. Thank you Turbine for selecting people like the OP into an influential position.
    do you remember when CITW was first released? compare that to now. 93 deaths in a high level raid is a lot when people don't really know it yet still in testing phase, but wait until a couple weeks after release. the power gamers will figure out strategies than relay that information down through the grapevine. every raid that has been released the last like 4 years or so has been beaten in hours after release, usually with a lot of deaths, than the completions get smoother and smoother as time goes on when people understand easier ways to beat them. I would be very surprised if this raid is out of the norm due to past raids being beaten so easily in the past that this one raid will actually be challenging like that.
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  19. #19
    Hero LOOON375's Avatar
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    Boy, I love the smell of whining in the morning.


    It's not hard enough blah blah blah.

    If they were to add in an element that was to make stuff hard to complete for the best and most experienced of gamers, they would then come back to the forums crying about how the game is too hard.

    Look at CitW, no body runs it on EE. Everybody says it's because of the loot, but once in a while someone will admit it's because of what happens to blue bars in the raid.

    I keep seeing references to a normal run.

    Post up the results of a EH or EE run and then we can discuss if it's too hard or too easy.
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  20. #20
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    do you remember when CITW was first released? compare that to now. 93 deaths in a high level raid is a lot when people don't really know it yet still in testing phase, but wait until a couple weeks after release. the power gamers will figure out strategies than relay that information down through the grapevine. every raid that has been released the last like 4 years or so has been beaten in hours after release, usually with a lot of deaths, than the completions get smoother and smoother as time goes on when people understand easier ways to beat them. I would be very surprised if this raid is out of the norm due to past raids being beaten so easily in the past that this one raid will actually be challenging like that.
    Man, that will always be the case. Every time. A few weeks is good, it is actually the maximum time I'd give it a try. How long do you want to practise? A year? 2? Forever?

    I think you have an exaggerated notion of the influence of a Council member.

    If & when Turbine wants the opinions of the Player's Council, they ask them in the restricted Player's Council forum section.

    A Council member ranting in the open forums is no different than anybody else ranting in the open forums.
    I think I have experience with teh forum community. Look at all the centered Kensai threads .
    Last edited by zwiebelring; 03-02-2014 at 09:45 AM.
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