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  1. #41
    Community Member mobrien316's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    EE is supposed to be challenging for PLAYERS. If its a breeze for a hireling, how can it challenge players at all.
    If you could pike at the entrance and send your hireling through to complete the quest, I would agree with you. If you figure out a way to do that, let me know.

    The rogue hirelings are supposed to be there so that players don't have to either build every character with trap skills or always wait for a character with trap skills to join their party. If a player can get through the rest of an EE quest, with the exception of the traps, why is it good for them to not be able to get the traps with a hireling they bought specifically for that purpose?
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  2. #42
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    If you could pike at the entrance and send your hireling through to complete the quest, I would agree with you. If you figure out a way to do that, let me know.

    The rogue hirelings are supposed to be there so that players don't have to either build every character with trap skills or always wait for a character with trap skills to join their party. If a player can get through the rest of an EE quest, with the exception of the traps, why is it good for them to not be able to get the traps with a hireling they bought specifically for that purpose?
    While not quite the same thing, its kind of like bringing another kind of hire into EE, and expecting it to take care of dps. Not something you should do.

    Taking rogue hires into EE and expecting them to take care of all the traps is almost as silly.
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  3. #43
    Community Member mobrien316's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    While not quite the same thing, its kind of like bringing another kind of hire into EE, and expecting it to take care of dps. Not something you should do.

    Taking rogue hires into EE and expecting them to take care of all the traps is almost as silly.
    It's completely different. If you bought a melee hireling and he couldn't do ANY damage unless you had Augment Summons and were able to buff him significantly, that would be more like buying a rogue hireling and not having him able to find and disarm traps unless you buffed him significantly. If you bought a cleric hireling and he couldn't cast any spells unless you had Augment Summons and you buffed him considerably, that would be like a rogue hireling who can't do traps.
    All on Thelanis: Archenpaul Sixblade, Archernicus Thornwood, Gregorovic Redcloak, Hermanius Brightblade, Jaklomeo Evermug, Jonathraxius Kane, and Praetoreus Silvershield.

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  4. #44
    Community Member schelsullivan's Avatar
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    Wo ought to be able to equip hire with non btc/bta gear then. "hey rogue hire, here use this item while we are in the quest, dont forget to give it back when we are done"
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  5. #45
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    It's completely different. If you bought a melee hireling and he couldn't do ANY damage unless you had Augment Summons and were able to buff him significantly, that would be more like buying a rogue hireling and not having him able to find and disarm traps unless you buffed him significantly. If you bought a cleric hireling and he couldn't cast any spells unless you had Augment Summons and you buffed him considerably, that would be like a rogue hireling who can't do traps.
    If we put the rogue hireling in your scenario, it wouldnt be able to deal damage either.

    Its just not good enough to handle the traps all by himself.

    Remember that a rogue is not just a trapper, and some PC rogues arent able to do EE traps either, at least not without buffs.

    The problem lies more in you expecting too much from the hire, than the hire being bad in itself.
    Last edited by bartharok; 02-27-2014 at 02:41 PM.
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  6. #46
    Community Member mobrien316's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    If we put the rogue hireling in your scenario, it wouldnt be able to deal damage either.

    Its just not good enough to handle the traps all by himself.

    Remember that a rogue is not just a trapper, and some PC rogues arent able to do EE traps either, at least not without buffs.

    The problem lies more in you expecting too much from the hire, than the hire being bad in itself.
    Right, but no one I know buys a rogue hireling to do damage. They buy them to do traps, just like people buy cleric hirelings to heal. If a cleric hireling couldn't heal without Augment Summons and considerable buffing, everyone would clearly recognize that as a fail. The same goes for a rogue hireling who can't do traps without Augment Summons and considerable buffing.

    And I hardly think that expecting a rogue hireling to do traps is expecting too much.
    All on Thelanis: Archenpaul Sixblade, Archernicus Thornwood, Gregorovic Redcloak, Hermanius Brightblade, Jaklomeo Evermug, Jonathraxius Kane, and Praetoreus Silvershield.

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  7. #47
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    EE is supposed to be challenging for PLAYERS. If its a breeze for a hireling, how can it challenge players at all.
    lol. all the rogue hire does is disable traps. no different than a player rogue. the difference is that a player rogue would be far more useful in dps than a hire would be.

  8. #48
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    The counter question is: Why bring a rogue hireling on an EE quest?

    This thread has largely summed up my thoughts in several of the posts here.

    Rogue hires should not be able to do EE traps at level. EE should require some build dedication to trap skills--not a convenient splash. That said, the same hire should be able to handle the traps just fine on EN/EH. The only way to truly know is to see the hire's build/skill points and gear layout... I've encountered several "at level" rogues (or 'rouges') as some would put it, that couldn't disable normal traps at level.

    We are actually fortunate that the DCs for even EE are not the DCs that "classic" Epic traps had...

    While some folks can solo some EE content, it largely is a kick in the sack for most people.
    Last edited by AnubisPrime; 02-27-2014 at 04:56 PM.
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    Right, but no one I know buys a rogue hireling to do damage. They buy them to do traps, just like people buy cleric hirelings to heal. If a cleric hireling couldn't heal without Augment Summons and considerable buffing, everyone would clearly recognize that as a fail. The same goes for a rogue hireling who can't do traps without Augment Summons and considerable buffing.

    And I hardly think that expecting a rogue hireling to do traps is expecting too much.
    A key difference here is that DPS & Healing come in degrees of a little, average or a lot; while traps have no degree - you can or you can't. The better hireling analogy came earlier in the thread: bringing a hireling Wizzy into at-level Epic Elites and expecting effective crowd control - seems unlikely to me.

    Remember, the expectation here seems to be that a rogue hire can do the traps at-level on Epic Elite; or in other words: something that can be a challenge to players should be a non-issue for hirelings. If it's reasonable for a player to need GH etc. to complete Epic Elite traps, why is it unreasnable that a hire should? Scroll it if you can, clicky if you can't, maybe bless 'em while you're at it.
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  10. #50
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    Right, but no one I know buys a rogue hireling to do damage. They buy them to do traps, just like people buy cleric hirelings to heal. If a cleric hireling couldn't heal without Augment Summons and considerable buffing, everyone would clearly recognize that as a fail. The same goes for a rogue hireling who can't do traps without Augment Summons and considerable buffing.

    And I hardly think that expecting a rogue hireling to do traps is expecting too much.
    WHat you are expecting is to be able to cut down a tree with a toy saw.
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  11. #51
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    A key difference here is that DPS & Healing come in degrees of a little, average or a lot; while traps have no degree - you can or you can't. The better hireling analogy came earlier in the thread: bringing a hireling Wizzy into at-level Epic Elites and expecting effective crowd control - seems unlikely to me.

    Remember, the expectation here seems to be that a rogue hire can do the traps at-level on Epic Elite; or in other words: something that can be a challenge to players should be a non-issue for hirelings. If it's reasonable for a player to need GH etc. to complete Epic Elite traps, why is it unreasnable that a hire should? Scroll it if you can, clicky if you can't, maybe bless 'em while you're at it.
    if all it took was a gh or some simple buff that anyone can find in the game to disable EE traps, I would be ok with that. the fact is, hires can be bought with TP or real money. they should be able to be effective for what I paid for or why am I wasting my TP/$? one of the problems with hires is that they are limited to 1 hot bar and only have a few buff/spells/AB or whatever that come already with the hire. the other half of the hot bar is just toggle stuff. hires are very limited to what they can do and its already bad enough they have such a bad AI that you spend half the time making sure they don't get into trouble and keep them alive, otherwise you just park and summon as you need them.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    if all it took was a gh or some simple buff that anyone can find in the game to disable EE traps, I would be ok with that.
    Admittedly, I don't know squat about hires from personal experience - I build for my needs and pug to fill in the gaps. All I've seen in this thread is complaints that the hires can't do the at-level epic elites right out of the box. So what do they need? Is GH sufficient? Is Aug summon, or Druid PLs or both also required? Anybody know what the minimum threshold is to get your money's worth out of using a hire vs a live player (be they pug, friend or guildy)?

    My guess would be that it doesn't take much, likely just GH and Bless - thats an easy +5 to their Disable & Search skills. If more is needed then Prayer's another easily aquired clicky for another +1, but after that you'ld probably need at least a little UMD to hit them with a Wand of Foxes Cunning for another +4, totaling up to +10 from all of the above. I highly doubt Aug Summoning or Druid PLs are required, so happening to have them would likely substitue for some of the buffs mentioned.

    Obviously none of ^that^ is relevant to the argument of wether or not "stock" hirelings should be able to get the EElite stuff, but I prefer to dwell on what is rather than what isn't.
    Last edited by PermaBanned; 02-27-2014 at 06:11 PM.
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  13. #53
    The Hatchery Paleus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    they should be able to be effective for what I paid for or why am I wasting my TP/$? one of the problems with hires is that they are limited to 1 hot bar and only have a few buff/spells/AB or whatever that come already with the hire.
    Here I think is the crux of the problem and why it was a mistake for Turbine to make rogue hirelings bought for TP/shards. The problem I see is that if rogue hirelings could do all EE traps right out of the box, whereas a notable portion of the player base may not be able to. Personally, I'd rather see no rogue hirelings in the ddo store before I'd chance this developing further into a P2W kind of scenario.

    We can somehow stomach a cleric or fighter hireling that can't bring 10% of what a competent player brings to EE quests because, honestly, no one is going to bother bringing them. But since traps are a fixed obstacle that are all or nothing, unlike mobs as obstacles, and only two classes can bypass them. So having those hirelings only bring 10% of what a competent player can bring feels like a ripoff since 10% or even 75% is a fail on trapping. But for me, I'd rather not make hireling rogues a sure-fire means to bypass traps in EE quests.

    Or, to put it another way, would people have any objection to Turbine selling "bells of disarming....guaranteed to disable a trap." Because wanting hireling rogues sold in the DDO store for TP is basically just that, all you'd avoid is having to tell the hireling to stand still until you came to a new trap to summon it to disarm.
    Last edited by Paleus; 02-27-2014 at 07:50 PM.
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  14. #54
    Community Member mobrien316's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleus View Post
    Or, to put it another way, would people have any objection to Turbine selling "bells of disarming....guaranteed to disable a trap."
    Now that's just ridiculous. Next thing you'll be fantasizing about "Bells of Opening" that are guaranteed to open any lock.


    Oh, wait...
    All on Thelanis: Archenpaul Sixblade, Archernicus Thornwood, Gregorovic Redcloak, Hermanius Brightblade, Jaklomeo Evermug, Jonathraxius Kane, and Praetoreus Silvershield.

    Cogito ergo summopere periculosus.

  15. #55
    Founder AnubisPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    WHat you are expecting is to be able to cut down a tree with a toy saw.
    ^^^Exactly. We have forgotten that DDO (adapted D&D 3.5 with meh-touch of 4E) works best when we play in groups. When said groups aren't available (as the game is now 8 years old), they give us hirelings to help us out. These hirelings can help get us through general questing--they really can. BUT when we start expecting them to behave like player characters and we want them to perform in EE content we end up with Woody Allen playing the role of "Shaft".
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  16. #56
    Community Member mobrien316's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnubisPrime View Post
    ^^^Exactly. We have forgotten that DDO (adapted D&D 3.5 with meh-touch of 4E) works best when we play in groups. When said groups aren't available (as the game is now 8 years old), they give us hirelings to help us out. These hirelings can help get us through general questing--they really can. BUT when we start expecting them to behave like player characters and we want them to perform in EE content we end up with Woody Allen playing the role of "Shaft".
    I've heard this argument before, and it simply doesn't ring true. A rogue hireling who can do traps is nowhere near as useful as a PC rogue (unless you are used to questing with utterly gimp and useless rogues indeed.)

    A hireling rogue who can do traps in epics is now able to do two things: traps, and pull levers. If they can't do traps, they can only pull levers. If you are used to questing with rogue players who can only pull levers and do traps, I feel bad for you.

    If rogue hirelings were able to do traps in EE, and anyone thought that was too powerful for a hireling, they wouldn't have to use them. I don't see how anyone could have a problem with that.
    All on Thelanis: Archenpaul Sixblade, Archernicus Thornwood, Gregorovic Redcloak, Hermanius Brightblade, Jaklomeo Evermug, Jonathraxius Kane, and Praetoreus Silvershield.

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  17. #57
    Founder AnubisPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    I've heard this argument before, and it simply doesn't ring true. A rogue hireling who can do traps is nowhere near as useful as a PC rogue (unless you are used to questing with utterly gimp and useless rogues indeed.)

    A hireling rogue who can do traps in epics is now able to do two things: traps, and pull levers. If they can't do traps, they can only pull levers. If you are used to questing with rogue players who can only pull levers and do traps, I feel bad for you.

    If rogue hirelings were able to do traps in EE, and anyone thought that was too powerful for a hireling, they wouldn't have to use them. I don't see how anyone could have a problem with that.
    I grant you your general message is valid, but again...there are what's considered "well rounded" PC rogue builds that still have a hard time doing some traps on EE. All traps--no. Some--yes.

    EE in lot's of cases is a different ballgame compared to EN/EH. Hire melee characters and even hire healers don't fare as well in EE. They are a stopgap and they are not built for tip-top, high-end, endgame content. One can always concoct ways for hires to be useful...there are no absolutes, but apparently the level 24 rogue as the OP put it was not able to do the EE trap.

    So in this case it does indeed "ring true".
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