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  1. #41
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleFooz View Post
    That's a good point.

    You're referring to a 20-30 min completion of What Goes Up, correct?

    The last time we assessed completion times for that quest, it wasn't 20 minutes. Is that what you're seeing? We'll go back to our data collection and double-check. We don't want to arbitrarily nerf things, but 60k in 20 minutes isn't intended.

    It should be noted that our bar for assessing completion times is not the minimum possible time, but rather the expected mean time from real players. If a few really good players are completing it in 20 minutes, but everyone else is taking over an hour, then our response to that is "congratulations, you proved that you have awesome skills, here's a whole bunch of XP."
    Here's the problem with your assessment: If a quest has too much XP, it's going to get run more than other quests in its level range, but if a quest has too little XP, it's just not going to get run.

    Despite VoN 3 LFMs outnumbering all other runs of the same level combined at times, other quests were still being run. Most people get kind of burnt out running the same quest too many times. I know that, for me, that limit is 3-4 runs. After that, I don't care what the XP/min is still, I'm either running something else or logging off. That said, there are quests that no one can get a group for, because the XP is just so awful that it's really not worth running the quest more than once or twice. Now, if you happen to really enjoy a quest, or the loot therein is good enough XP/min may not matter, but both of those draws will lose their power to populate the LFMs long before XP will.

    That your response is to be concerned that a level 26 quest that offers 60,000 XP for 20 minutes is excessive just shows that you're looking at this picture in the wrong way. If we can get 20,000 XP (low ball estimate for some Vale quests) for 20 minutes in a level 16 quest, when we need 165,000 XP total to gain level 17, why is a level 26 quest that takes the same amount of time to run, and yields 60,000 XP a problem when the total XP required to get from 26 to 27 is 1,050,000 XP?

    For comparison, at level 16 20,000 accounts for about 12% of a level going from 16-17, while at level 26 60,000 accounts for about 6% of a level going from 26 to 27.


    Quote Originally Posted by ArkoHighStar View Post
    The problem is your recreating the same issue you had with heroics, where you had less quests at higher level and more xp is required per level, and the xp is not scaled to reflect this. This was helped with the xp curve rebalance to heroic levels, but epic didn't get that.

    In other words a 20-30 minute quest that gives you 24-28k base at lvl 21 should not give you the same xp for a lvl 28 quest, we should see 30-40k xp for the same effort. Now if we had tons of lvl 28 content maybe you could sell it, but we don't.
    This is a major issue, and one that people on the forums have been making posts about for a long time.

    So, DDO is based (loosely, and loosening more) on D&D. In the pen and paper game, the XP required to get from one level to the next increases with each level gained (1,000, 3,000, 6,000, 10,000, etc...), which is similar to the curve we see in DDO, but in D&D the number of encounters required to gain the next level stays fairly static from one level to the next. I believe the 3.5 Dungeon Master's Guide pegs it at either 11 or 13 at-level encounters per level. Now, those figures can go up and down a bit depending on what your group faces (it may be only a handful of encounters if they are all 3+ levels over the party's level, for example, or may be more than 13 if they face a bunch of softball encounters). In DDO, we look at quests/level and XP/quest rather than encounters/level or XP/encounter because the game is set-up differently, largely as a factor of time: it takes about as long to run a DDO dungeon as it does to run a combat encounter in D&D. Additionally, DDO is necessarily looking to draw out the leveling process in a way that D&D isn't looking to do (on-line gaming and all that).

    In DDO, XP/level curves upwards significantly, while XP/quest is a much flatter line, thereby requiring more completions of quests per level. This is a problem. On its own, it wouldn't necessarily be an issue, except for two things: 1st, there is less variety of content at the highest levels of the game than we have at lower levels, which necessarily means much more repetition of content, which in turn leaves players feeling like they're grinding XP rather than leveling to enjoy the game. 2nd, we aren't tied to only running quests at our level. Now, that may seem like it contradicts the first point, but it doesn't really, not when we're looking at how much XP quests should be granting. If a quest at level 23 is granting 3,000 XP/min, and a quest at level 28 is granting 500 XP/min (and the level 23 quest is going to be easier than the level 28, by virtue of being a lower level), players are going to run that level 23 quest more often. In heroic content, this is a little bit less of a problem (just a little), because XP penalties kick in once you're two levels above the quest's level, so you can milk a particular quest for only so long, but with the wider range on epic content, there is little stopping us from just running the easier, faster content that is also offering better rewards.

    Look at the leveling patterns for some players (I won't try to quantify how many vs. the rest of the game's population): milk Litany of the Dead (one of the best XP/min quests in the game) from level 16 or 17 to cap, or until you need to pick up a level, and then hit some Vale quests to get the rest of the way, skipping most of the content available for levels 18 and 19 (and 20). Why is that? Because the quests in that range are significantly tougher than Litany, and not only offer worse XP/min than Litany, but offer worse XP/min than several quests of lower level.

    Really, your starting baseline for assessing quest XP should be to start with the total number of quests you have for a given level at the time you're making the quests, and then divide up the total amount of XP required to advance to the next level and divide it by that number of quests, maybe lessen the shares by a bit to allow for some repeats, or a quest that offers better than standard XP. There are currently six level 26 quests in the game. Even assuming they should be run twice each, they should be netting us about 87,000 XP per completion each. 60,000 XP for the completion of a level 26 quest is low, but not so low that it's totally inappropriate. The problem then stems from all the rest of the level 26 quests having significantly worse XP. The situation for level 27 is worse, with only 5 quests, and for level 28 is awful, with only a single quest.

    Asking us to repeat each quest 3 times or more for a given level is part of the reason so many people have found the game to be excessively grindy at higher levels.


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  2. #42
    Community Member Satyriasys's Avatar
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    Heres a suggestion to the folks who don't have a lot of time. How about maybe doing a shorter quest?
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  3. #43
    Community Member whereispowderedsilve's Avatar
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    Default Purple PLEASE read Seph's post!

    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    AWESOME SAUCE STUFF RIGHT HERE
    Wow that was awesome Seph!!!! Purple PLEASE make/take time to read all of that! Makes so much sense it hurts!
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  4. #44
    Community Member Cyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Memnir View Post
    And this is where I think the design choice is... odd.


    To put that much weight and emphasis on Optionals makes them seem a lot less optional. And, for folks like me who don't really give a fig about XP/min ratios - but want to see the whole quest, the choice is rather odious. So, thanks to these design choices, I've been rather unenthusiastic about HH, and am even less so now. Yeah, I could do the whole quest - if I have that kind of time to allot to it. Since it's a lot to allot, chances are slim. Yeah, it's a choice - but the choice was not entirely mine to make. By design, y'all have taken a lot of that away. And I would be lying if I thought it was an awesome thing.

    We're getting a quest where so much of the XP and loot is going to be tucked away behind a barrier - only this one is a barrier of time. However, if HH was maybe broken up into more of a quest-chain type scenario - the whole thing could be run, all the loot attainable, and all the XP a realistic goal. Even if it has to be taken in stages. The way it's currently being implemented, it's pretty much the opposite of that.

    I just have a feeling HH is going to be something I see once, maybe a few times - and then jettison it as something I am going to want to do regardless of how awesome the loot is, how fantastic the art and design of the quest is, and how big a lure the "optional" XP is. I understand that you as developers have to consider the player-base as a whole - and I have no expectations that anything will change because I'm not happy with it... just saying that this is one customer that the design choices are once again alienating regardless of the spin.

    And, while I appreciate your response Fooz, I still think it's nothing but a pity.
    Right on target with the multiple quests instead of one Mem. That would have made a massive amount of more sense then what we are seeing here. It would have given more favor, CoVs, and better playability due to players not having the patience or free time all at once to do a very long quest.

    I see no need for a converted pnp module to be all one quest. Just a bad choice given the game mechanics in place.
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  5. #45
    Community Member Shmuel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleFooz View Post
    You can play for 30 minutes - just don't do the optionals. The time that you spend in there is up to your own decision on which optionals you tackle.

    If you only do the base minimum required to complete the dungeon, you'll earn just the base XP. And that base XP is intended to be competitive with other dungeons that take 30 minutes to complete.

    As mentioned in my previous post, 60k XP for 20 minutes of play isn't intended, and that wouldn't be the bar that we stat HH by.
    I just played for an hour and a half and got 800k on live. yesterday i got 1.4 million in 2 hours. this was running a variety of quests, not difficult quests, not on elite, things anyone can do. it is not one unbalanced quest, but half a dozen or so of them.

    Frankly, I don't have much interest in running lower xp/min quest at the moment since you made there be such a huge xp requirement for grinding out epls. If you were to nerf all those quest to what you say you want xp per minute to be, and what you base new quests on, i will lose a great deal of interest in playing this game altogether.

    Quit peckering around and make 9-10k/min be typical for the new quests as well if you want them to be played repeatedly. That is the way many of us who enjoy this game actually enjoy playing. Otherwise stop pretending to be doing anything other than making sure that purchasing xp through the ddo store the only way to progress your character faster than a snail's pace.
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  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    <snipped for brevity> The problem then stems from all the rest of the level 26 quests having significantly worse XP. The situation for level 27 is worse, with only 5 quests, and for level 28 is awful, with only a single quest.

    Asking us to repeat each quest 3 times or more for a given level is part of the reason so many people have found the game to be excessively grindy at higher levels.


    You can do better than this.
    Excellent post and breakdown.
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  7. #47
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satyriasys View Post
    Heres a suggestion to the folks who don't have a lot of time. How about maybe doing a shorter quest?
    Why don't you run one of 300 shorter quests, and let people who love long dungeon crawls to have 1 awesome quest to run?

  8. #48
    The Hatchery Scraap's Avatar
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    Not a whole lot to add to Seph and Mem's points except: While I've said repeatedly that ya'll should take a page from von3 with all the randomized optionals, I kinda feel that the presented setup completely misses the point there. It's not that there's a whole lot of extras that make it less eye-bleeding than comparable quests at the appropriate levels. It's that there's a whole lot of extras that may or may not pop up along the way so it cuts down on the feeling of repetition. The high relative XP from those is entirely justified in that regard, since you're looking at getting an average of about half of them per run-through.
    Last edited by Scraap; 02-26-2014 at 07:32 PM.

  9. #49
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    If Haunted Halls only grants CoV once for completion I certainly won't be running it for the optionals...

    Get in... Get done... Get out... Get CoV ...Move on.


    I have no idea how long Normal WGU takes to complete I've only been running EH about 45min-1hr and EE 1hr-1hr20min.

  10. #50
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxarhamar View Post
    If Haunted Halls only grants CoV once for completion I certainly won't be running it for the optionals...

    Get in... Get done... Get out... Get CoV ...Move on.


    I have no idea how long Normal WGU takes to complete I've only been running EH about 45min-1hr and EE 1hr-1hr20min.
    This is a very good point for the devs to take note of. We have two different forms of advancement in epic levels. XP and CoV. If this is a 2 hour quest that drops CoV at the same rate as a 10 minute quest of the same level, it has failed in providing incentive for that form of advancement. If the xp also ends up being poor for the time invested, it starts right out of the gate with two strikes against it.
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  11. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArkoHighStar View Post
    great now I am going to get blamed for nerfing What Goes Up

    Unfortunately boosting one quest or nerfing another doesn't solve the real issue, which is most quests in this range 25-28 are not great xp per minute compared to lower level quests. The solution is not nerfing but boosting more of these quests to make them more attractive.
    Something that I think often gets lost in the xp/min conversation comparing higher level quests with lower level quests: in epic levels the xp penalty for being over leveled is greatly mitigated by the increased range that epic characters can run quests without those penalties (which is a good thing in that it gives you a much wider range of quests and other players that you can play with).

    this makes those lower level quests that have comparable xp/min on paper to higher level quests more lucrative for xp because while on paper it is true that a level 23 running a level 23 quest will take about as long as a level 28 running a level 28 quest, the level 28s running the level 23 quest do so with greater speed making them a better option for xp/min. Higher level quests should give out more base xp than lower "equivalent" quests

    pen and paper supports this model. iirc monster xp is intended to give a level every 13+ encounters provided each of those encounters is equivalent to your current level. The number of encounters is not intended to change at higher levels. DDO does not really support that at higher levels.

    This is also probably one of the reason for the larger disparity of numbers of commendations of valor between what developers and players think is appropriate.
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  12. #52
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasparion View Post
    Im pretty sure end game content should be where we go to get the best XP. Not a level 21 dungeon from 5 years ago.

    So the obvious solution here is, make Haunted Halls even better than WGU.
    Exactly right. And since "End Game" must take into account the massive amount of XP needed to acquire 9 PLs per sphere, end game quest xp could reward a half million XP and still not be considered too high xp/quest.

    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    That your response is to be concerned that a level 26 quest that offers 60,000 XP for 20 minutes is excessive just shows that you're looking at this picture in the wrong way. If we can get 20,000 XP (low ball estimate for some Vale quests) for 20 minutes in a level 16 quest, when we need 165,000 XP total to gain level 17, why is a level 26 quest that takes the same amount of time to run, and yields 60,000 XP a problem when the total XP required to get from 26 to 27 is 1,050,000 XP?
    Also exactly right. What am I doing at End Game? I'm looking ahead at 50Million+ xp worth of grind just to max my EPLs in ONE Sphere. Doubling or Tripling the xp in HH will still be a drop in the bucket.

    Quote Originally Posted by Satyriasys View Post
    Heres a suggestion to the folks who don't have a lot of time. How about maybe doing a shorter quest?
    Ummm, yeah. And how is that a good thing? By designing the quest in this way, they are forcing a large portion of the playerbase to make exactly that decision: play other quests. I don't see how disincentives to running content you've invested a ton of dev time and money on is a good thing. When the inevitable forum posts come up from new players asking what end-game packs to buy, who will recommend these?
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  13. #53
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleFooz View Post
    If a few really good players are completing it in 20 minutes, but everyone else is taking over an hour, then our response to that is "congratulations, you proved that you have awesome skills, here's a whole bunch of XP."
    I wholeheartedly agree with this attitude. If you can incorporate this philosophy in as much of your future planing as possible, I would be satisfied.
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  14. #54
    Community Member Satyriasys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    Ummm, yeah. And how is that a good thing? By designing the quest in this way, they are forcing a large portion of the playerbase to make exactly that decision: play other quests. I don't see how disincentives to running content you've invested a ton of dev time and money on is a good thing. When the inevitable forum posts come up from new players asking what end-game packs to buy, who will recommend these?
    Not every quest has to be the same, variety is a good thing. If you are short on time there are plenty of fast quests for you, if you have time to kill and in the mood for a nice long quest those options are there too.

    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    who will recommend these?
    I will, it's very well designed and fun.
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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scraap View Post
    Not a whole lot to add to Seph and Mem's points except: While I've said repeatedly that ya'll should take a page from von3 with all the randomized optionals, I kinda feel that the presented setup completely misses the point there. It's not that there's a whole lot of extras that make it less eye-bleeding than comparable quests at the appropriate levels. It's that there's a whole lot of extras that may or may not pop up along the way so it cuts down on the feeling of repetition. The high relative XP from those is entirely justified in that regard, since you're looking at getting an average of about half of them per run-through.
    This is an important point that I think will help with making quests less boring.

    I've pointed out that having multiple possible end fights, such as Litany or Sins, might be a way for Devs to present quests that have small updates, such as the upcoming HH quest or Update 20 or even the horrible Shadowfail.

    The better option would be the multiple optional encounters that happen on the way to the quest that sometimes are random or rare. Tears and the Depth quests are some examples where this works really well.

    Additionally, there is something that could be done in quests that actually makes the quest much more random. Instead of having the same mob spawn at certain points in a quest, make it so that one of three mobs spawn at that point. This is already a working mechanism in the game since the end boss for Missing in Action could be one of three Troglodytes. To keep players on their toes, the mobs could even be different types, such as a chance of being a Beholder, a Lich or a Marilith which are three mobs that (used to) need completely different tactics when encountering them. What's the worse thing that will happen here, that it doesn't work with the Monster Manuals that the Devs decided weren't worth time even if players enjoyed them?

  16. #56
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...d!#post5265682

    If you listen to the Interview Ed Greenwood says something to the effect of ~Haunted Halls was originally intended to be a full campaign setting that could take 6 years to play through.

    So the extended version of Haunted Halls which is suppose to represent some of the missing content from the Original Module. this couldn't be made into multiple quests or a story arc. A few NPC outside that granted different quests inside the same dungeon?

    It all had to be smashed together into 1 quest? Why When we need more content at Cap so badly are we getting all these 1-2 Quest updates. Common Man!

  17. #57
    Community Member darthhento's Avatar
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    Wow. Just wow.

    You're creating the same problem that you made when releasing Amrath and Cannith back when cap was 20. Too small number of too long quests that give god-awful XP/min. And now you're doing the same with the new "end-game" stuff.

    IT'S THE HIGHEST LEVEL CONTENT IN THE GAME, MAKE IT GIVE MORE XP/min than the bloody lvl 20-23 quests for Christ's sake!

    Stop making the same bloody mistakes over and over again.
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  18. #58
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satyriasys View Post


    I will, it's very well designed and fun.
    I also like quests that are well designed and fun. But if that same well designed quest had great xp, CoV awarded for completion and each optional, had fun and useful loot and had no escorting (sorry had to throw that one in there) then you open up your potential customer base so much more. Nobody so far is saying this is a badly designed or unfun quest. I'm seeing the opposite there. Why not offer incentives to players that prefer other motivators in addition to fun factor so you can sell more?
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  19. #59
    Community Member Grosbeak07's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    Yep and some of us don't care about xp/min.
    If more people took this approach, I think they would find the game more enjoyable.
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  20. #60
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grosbeak07 View Post
    If more people took this approach, I think they would find the game more enjoyable.
    People approach the game in different ways. This is why we have so much drama on the forums. Suggesting people change their playstyle is about as effective as asking people to breathe like a fish because "it's more enjoyable" for the fish. Why not ask the fish to breathe air for a while? You end up with the same problem.
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