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  1. #1
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    Default Help me understand this about builds

    Looking at various caster builds and I notice a lot of wisdom based casters starting with 8. How is that working when you need at least a 11 to cast first level spells. I had a hard time on my ranger just to get to 12. So what is the strategy on having such a low starting wisdom on druids. And don't you need a higher wisdom for better chance of damaging mobs?

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Treefq View Post
    Looking at various caster builds and I notice a lot of wisdom based casters starting with 8. How is that working when you need at least a 11 to cast first level spells. I had a hard time on my ranger just to get to 12. So what is the strategy on having such a low starting wisdom on druids. And don't you need a higher wisdom for better chance of damaging mobs?

    If stat is only required to be able to cast spells you don't need any points invested. 8 starting + 4 tome + 7 item is enough to cast lvl 9 spells.

    Some spells don't have a DC, some do half dmg on a save. Not all casters are DC casters.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treefq View Post
    Looking at various caster builds and I notice a lot of wisdom based casters starting with 8. How is that working when you need at least a 11 to cast first level spells. I had a hard time on my ranger just to get to 12. So what is the strategy on having such a low starting wisdom on druids. And don't you need a higher wisdom for better chance of damaging mobs?
    Most every build dumping a caster stat isn't using spells with a save. For instance, while I wouldn't completely drop wisdom on an animal form druid, others may becuase they will be meleeing only.

    As to caster stat, you need 19 to cast level 9 spells. It's very easy to raise stats without putting build points into them. You can use a tome. You can use ship buffs. You can use gear. You can use enhancements. If I were a ranger that dumped wisdom, I could get my wisdom to 12 by level 3. 8+2 ship buffs+2 gear+1 tome=13.

  4. #4
    Community Member Sianys's Avatar
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    I personally wouldn't dump a stat I wanted to depend on for spells that low, but that's me (YMMV and all that). They are right, you can get that stat up via tomes and whatnot, but if you're depending on loot drops for tomes and not buying them (because you can't afford the TP/don't want to spend the money), minimize that dump to maybe a 10. It'll be easier to raise with enhancements, items, leveling stat bonus and such, and you wouldn't start off with a penalty. But yeah, the main reason folks would dump that stat is mostly for melee versions of a caster toon, and they want to put the points into Str or Dex or something to make it more survivable and beefy.
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  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    If I were a ranger that dumped wisdom, I could get my wisdom to 12 by level 3. 8+2 ship buffs+2 gear+1 tome=13.
    You can get to 12 by level 2 on a first-ever character with virtually no outside help; no tomes, no ship, no gear, no nothing:

    8 +4 owl's wisdom pot = 12

    Those pots are like 5 plat in the market.

  6. #6
    The Hatchery Paleus's Avatar
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    Gear, enhancements, and tomes all contribute to the casting stat's minimum level requirement for casting a spell. So, if a player's goal is not going to be being a dc caster, sometimes dumping the casting stat to buff other stats is an acceptable choice.

    For example, I have a warforged favored soul, built years ago, never TRed it. I dumped wisdom because while I was using a "spell-caster" class, I had actually built it as a greatsword swinging melee/healer hybrid, its actually a fairly common flavor for fvs (or was). There are spells I would still cast because they could do direct damage with no saves (i.e. divine punishment, searing light). There are spells I would still cast because even with a save, some damage is better than no damage (blade barrier vs mobs without evasion).

    So, when you see a "spell-caster" class that dumps their primary casting stat, you're looking at a player that is likely playing to melee strengths of the class combining it with a combination of direct damage spells, healing, and buffing capability.
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    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    [Option 1]You can use enhancements. [Option 2]If I were a ranger that dumped wisdom, I could get my wisdom to 12 by level 3. 8+2 ship buffs+2 gear+1 tome=13.
    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    You can get to 12 by level 2 on a first-ever character with virtually no outside help; no tomes, no ship, no gear, no nothing:

    [Option 3]8 +4 owl's wisdom pot = 12

    Those pots are like 5 plat in the market.
    [] = Not part of the original quote
    These are the most common ways to boost a casting stat to be able to cast spells. It is why I tend to dump Wisdom/Charisma if I am not using it for DC's. You can reset enhancements once you have the gear but redistributing build points requires a Reincarnation of some kind.

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    Community Member fmalfeas's Avatar
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    Though I will point out that in the current environment, unless you spend TP to get it, tomes are very unlikely to be really accessible for a newish player. The price of them has skyrocketed since they're dropping so rarely.

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    Ok thanks for the replies. I see what is going on now. Still too new for +* tomes. I have gotten about 3 on daily dice. but it was a skill and +int tomes. those went to my wizard.

    How do boat buffs work? Do I have to be in a guild?

    I have used pots but wish they lasted longer then 5 min. I guess I could also use wands if I have the UMD for them.

    I am trying to figure out a dex based 14/2/4 Druid/fighter/rogue. Thinking going high dex and using weapon finesse. not sure if power attack+cleave+imp cleave that important.

  10. #10
    Hopeless Romantic dunklezhan's Avatar
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    As a new player I would ignore any build that requires tomes. Items spells and enhancements work and until you get items just use stat spells on wands or pots if you have to... But note items and spells rarely stack and spells and pots/wands won't count right after you shrine. So on a new player I would suggest at least enough on your casting stat to get L1 spells to tide you over till you have items and enhancements to boost you up by the time you have higher level spells.

    Note some classes don't get their spells till level 4 I think anyway. So for those you can probably manage with a lower casting stat to begin with if you don't need spell DC on the build.
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    Community Member Powerhungry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treefq View Post
    How do boat buffs work? Do I have to be in a guild?
    .
    You have to have access to a guild airship either by joining a guild or getting invited onto an airship by someone in a guild. Also the guild must be of a sufficiently high level. The higher the level, the better buffs the boat will have (A level 61 guild will get you 4 +2 stat shrines, an experience shrine and all 5 +30 resistance shrines - plus a couple of extra boosts).

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by dunklezhan View Post
    As a new player I would ignore any build that requires tomes.
    Agreed.

    So on a new player I would suggest at least enough on your casting stat to get L1 spells to tide you over till you have items and enhancements to boost you up by the time you have higher level spells.
    I disagree with this. Pots work fine until you get gear, and even enhancements can be levereaged to help out the early levels. (eg: Human Adaptability.) I wouldn't want to throw away stat points at character creation just to save a few plat on pots.

  13. #13
    Hopeless Romantic dunklezhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Agreed.

    I disagree with this. Pots work fine until you get gear, and even enhancements can be levereaged to help out the early levels. (eg: Human Adaptability.) I wouldn't want to throw away stat points at character creation just to save a few plat on pots.

    This is a fair observation, and if you have experience running a caster who as a class should be able to cast from L1 right out the gate, but as a build does not have the ability to natively do so until maybe rank 1 or 2 when they can buy a relevant point via enhancements, then I certainly concede your point.

    I should be up front and say I've never tried to do it myself. I've thought about it, but it just doesn't appeal to me - too much micromanagement and plat expenditure for my liking, and likely too much for for a very new player too. Drinking a pot after a shrine just so you can load spells, and then drinking another 3 mins later to make sure you can still cast them? That would drive me insane. I've done it with characters who have access to bank gear, but never out of the gate with no 'support'. I also don't think, again I could be wrong, that you can get those kinds of potions/wands in Korthos, and that might be another limiting factor for a newish player.

    Also, getting a stat from 8 to 11 is a whole 3 stat points at Char gen, which is realistically just one point difference in one of your 'primary' stats on the build. This of course matters very much if you pick an attribute for which your build requires a minimum score (e.g. Dex for TWF, or Str for overwhelming crit maybe), but otherwise in my experience - having made such compromises - you'll probably not really notice too much the loss of a point in a secondary 'high' stat in many builds (personally, as an experienced player I am comfortable sacrificing Con at times like those as it happens, but this is certainly NOT advice I would give a new player).

    Of course it depends - if the new player is already of a mind to play 'optimal or go home' then my advice in this case is unquestionably bad, and they shouldn't follow it! I wouldn't know optimal if it hit me around the face with it's khopesh. I've simply never found it necessary to get along in DDO, so I haven't bothered to worry about it.

    I am advising on the assumption that the player is new, without easy access to plat reserves and hand me down gear, may not have unlocked Korthos yet so may not be able to get relevant potions or wands. The more of those assumptions do not apply, the less applicable my advice will be. Assuming it is applicable, one thing I should've added to my last post was that once you've got to the higher levels, if you want to claw back those stat points then a lesser reincarnate, if that is affordable for the player in question, can be used to sort that out. Failing that, live with it till you can TR, and fix it then once you've got some plat and gear behind you (and since you've TRd, you have more points too!). It's just not that hard to hit 20 (it can TAKE a very long time depending on how you play and who you play with, but it's not hard).


    Edit: Ellis - I was also assuming that the build was a character that should be able to cast spells right out the gate. On a ranger specifically? No, I would not advise Wis11/12 at starting unless there was some other reason. By L4, when you actually get spells, you should certainly be able to find yourself a +3 item by the time you need one if you can run elites or get lucky on the AH and you'll have had time to invest in relevant enhancements too I would think.
    Last edited by dunklezhan; 02-02-2014 at 03:23 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerhungry View Post
    (A level 61 guild will get you 4 +2 stat shrines, an experience shrine and all 5 +30 resistance shrines - plus a couple of extra boosts).
    Actually not always (though for the most part you are correct).

    The guild I am in does not have the level 55 ship or higher (we are level 68) because we can not afford the Astral Shards to pay for the new ship, the next one up which can be bought for platinum is the level 80 ship.

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  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by dunklezhan View Post
    Edit: Ellis - I was also assuming that the build was a character that should be able to cast spells right out the gate. On a ranger specifically? No, I would not advise Wis11/12 at starting unless there was some other reason. By L4, when you actually get spells, you should certainly be able to find yourself a +3 item by the time you need one if you can run elites or get lucky on the AH and you'll have had time to invest in relevant enhancements too I would think.
    Yeah, I figured that's what you meant. It's kind of hard to argue that a paladin or ranger needs to start with 11 wisdom for spells; that's a clear case of "pots until you find a +3 item."

    I'm thinking back to my pre-enhancement pass necro cleric. He was a 19/1 cleric/wizard build, taking the wizard level for a free feat and master's touch. He could then THF his way to 12, at which point blade barrier takes over. As a cleric build he dumped int.

    Level 1 on an int-dumped wizard is NO FUN, heh, so I designed him to take the one wizard level at 2. The +4 stat potions are ML2 anyway, so it worked out nicely. I did not find the experience a hardship at all to drink my fox's cunning potion at the start of buffs. As for the pot running out, so do buffs! (Mainly expeditious retreat for that particular build.) Any time I buffed, I just drank the cunning pot as the first buff. All good, no harm no foul, no special extra effort or attention required.

    As a pre-buff ritual, stat pots are perfectly fine. If you need to keep the stat buffed for in-quest activities, like say to cast self-healing spells, then I'd want to find an item sooner rather than later. I can't really think of any other example of in-quest casting at low levels where you dump your casting stat. Pretty much just buffs and self-healing; any casting more advanced than that and you wouldn't have dumped your casting stat in the first place.

    Favored Soul may be a special case, since they need 10+level charisma to cast a spell but use wisdom for the dc. I don't have experience with FVS so I can't speak to that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Treefq View Post
    How do boat buffs work? Do I have to be in a guild?

    I have used pots but wish they lasted longer then 5 min. I guess I could also use wands if I have the UMD for them..
    For ship buffs, no - you can ask your group for a ship invite, but a guild is easier.

    5 minutes? That's a long time for a buff. My monk has buffs lasting 1 minute, some at 96 seconds.. and some lasting less than 20 seconds. You'll get used to it.

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    The Hatchery Paleus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treefq View Post
    I am trying to figure out a dex based 14/2/4 Druid/fighter/rogue. Thinking going high dex and using weapon finesse. not sure if power attack+cleave+imp cleave that important.
    Be careful before going dex based on what I assume is a melee build. Dex builds have their place, but if you're newer to the game, I think strength based can be easier. Power attack+cleave+greater cleave are good sources of additional dps and they sync in well to the powerful legendary dreadnought epic destiny and overwhelming critical epic feat as pre-requisites. Strength also tends to get more buffs in game than dex.

    Are you thinking of doing some kind of druid acrobat fusion?
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  18. #18
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treefq View Post
    I am trying to figure out a dex based 14/2/4 Druid/fighter/rogue. Thinking going high dex and using weapon finesse. not sure if power attack+cleave+imp cleave that important.
    First off, if this is either a staff- or dagger-based build, I'd strongly recommend going at least rog 5 for Staff / Knife Spec (+1 crit range & multiplier). You'll also gain DEX-to-atk-&-dmg that way, obviating the need for Finesse at all.

    Second, figuring out your base stats on a build like this to meet your pre-reqs is all about what resources you have access to, like tomes, items, shipbuffs, etc. Most builds, I'm sure you've noticed, tend to presume twink gear out the wazoo, because they're usually posted by vets with a ton of resources at their disposal. Finding something more apropos for the, shall we say, more wealth-challenged is slightly different.

    This build is a work-in-progress, but it gives you some idea of what goes into putting together the right build:
    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.20.01
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Level 20 True Neutral Halfling Female
    (5 Rogue \ 15 Druid) 
    Hit Points: 235
    Spell Points: 859 
    BAB: 14\14\19\24
    Fortitude: 14
    Reflex: 17
    Will: 13
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
    Strength             13                    13
    Dexterity            18                    23
    Constitution         14                    14
    Intelligence          8                     8
    Wisdom               12                    12
    Charisma              8                     8
    
    Level 1 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
    
    
    Level 2 (Druid)
    
    
    Level 3 (Druid)
    Feat: (Selected) Cleave
    Feat: (Druid Wild Shape) Wild Shape: Wolf
    
    
    Level 4 (Rogue)
    Ability Raise: DEX
    
    
    Level 5 (Druid)
    
    
    Level 6 (Druid)
    Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave
    
    
    Level 7 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 8 (Druid)
    Ability Raise: DEX
    Feat: (Druid Wild Shape) Wild Shape: Bear
    
    
    Level 9 (Druid)
    Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
    
    
    Level 10 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 11 (Druid)
    
    
    Level 12 (Druid)
    Ability Raise: DEX
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons
    Feat: (Druid Wild Shape) Wild Shape: Winter Wolf
    
    
    Level 13 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 14 (Druid)
    
    
    Level 15 (Druid)
    Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell
    
    
    Level 16 (Druid)
    Ability Raise: DEX
    Feat: (Druid Wild Shape) Wild Shape: Dire Bear
    
    
    Level 17 (Druid)
    
    
    Level 18 (Druid)
    Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell
    Feat: (Druid Wild Shape) Wild Shape: Water Elemental
    
    
    Level 19 (Druid)
    
    
    Level 20 (Druid)
    Ability Raise: DEX
    Enhancement: Halfling - Halfling Luck (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Staff Control (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Stick Fighting (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Staff Training (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Thief Acrobatics (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Thief Acrobatics (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Thief Acrobatics (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Staff Training (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Quick Strike (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Quick Strike (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Quick Strike (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Haste Boost (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Haste Boost (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Staff Training (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Sweeping Strikes (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Staff Training (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - No Mercy (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - No Mercy (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - No Mercy (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Staff Lunge (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Staff Specialization (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Vault (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Nature's Warrior (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Instinctive Fighting (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Instinctive Fighting (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Extra Wild Empathy (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Extra Wild Empathy (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Extra Wild Empathy (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Shifting Rake (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Flight (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Flight (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Flight (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Vengeful Hunter (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Vengeful Hunter (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Vengeful Hunter (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Action Boost: Double Strike (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Action Boost: Double Strike (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Action Boost: Double Strike (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Fatal Harrier (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Fatal Harrier (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Fatal Harrier (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Season's Herald (Drd) - Seasoned (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Season's Herald (Drd) - Time (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Season's Herald (Drd) - Tide (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Season's Herald (Drd) - Wand and Scroll Mastery (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Season's Herald (Drd) - Wand and Scroll Mastery (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Season's Herald (Drd) - Wand and Scroll Mastery (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Season's Herald (Drd) - Beguile (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Season's Herald (Drd) - Beguile (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Season's Herald (Drd) - Beguile (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Season's Herald (Drd) - Wax and Wane (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Season's Herald (Drd) - Produce Flame (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Season's Herald (Drd) - Produce Flame (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Season's Herald (Drd) - Produce Flame (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Season's Herald (Drd) - Wax and Wane (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Season's Herald (Drd) - Action Boost: Spellpower (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Season's Herald (Drd) - Action Boost: Spellpower (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Season's Herald (Drd) - Action Boost: Spellpower (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Season's Herald (Drd) - Creeping Cold (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Season's Herald (Drd) - Creeping Cold (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Season's Herald (Drd) - Creeping Cold (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Season's Herald (Drd) - Wax and Wane (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Season's Herald (Drd) - Wax and Wane (Rank 1)
    The goal of this build was a first-life / permadeath-style F2P rog / druid using staves: Acrobat for the melee DPS bonuses, Nature's Warrior for more DPS & Pos Spellpower, Season's Herald to boost cold spells like Creeping Cold & Ice Storm which have no saves. I bumped up base WIS to make spellcasting a little easier: base 12 + 6 item = 18, which is enough for lvl 8 spells; it also bumps up Will saves. For a build with access to better gear to start, I might start, say, WIS 8 INT 12 for more skill pts.
    Revisiting the Classics: Axesinger / Dwarven Defender / Drow Ninja / Drow Paladin / Elven Ranger / Monkcher / Sacred Vanguard
    Other build threads: Cleric Domains / Kundarak Brigade / Iconic Builds
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treefq View Post
    Looking at various caster builds and I notice a lot of wisdom based casters starting with 8. How is that working when you need at least a 11 to cast first level spells. I had a hard time on my ranger just to get to 12. So what is the strategy on having such a low starting wisdom on druids. And don't you need a higher wisdom for better chance of damaging mobs?
    post above points why sometimes 8 is enough (tome, gear)

    some spells have something called "difficulty check". The formula is: 10 +spell level (1-9) + stat modifier (wis for fvs cleric and druid, int for wiz, charisma for sorc)

    As higher you get your DC, you get more chances for some spells to land, but sometimes is not needed.

    There are basically 3 types of spells with DC: half damage - 1 effect only - 2 effects

    Casters focusing on direct raw magical damage don't need really high DC's. For example a fireball will always land. If the mob saves, will do half damage.

    A Hold Monster will affect the mob only if the mob fail the save

    A Finger of death will instantly kill a monster if such monster fail the save. But if he succeeds, it will still take some damage.

    and i could keep writing all day, but i think that cover the basics
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...te-Threat-Gear

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