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Thread: Guild Buffs 2.0

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    I think the idea that guild BUFFING should be a plat sink is a terrible idea.
    It is inspired on Housed J/P favor reward. These spells have a negligible cost right now, but the principle is there: Pay for someone to cast a buff on you.

    And no, currently, guild maintenance is not a plat sink. You spend around 20-60k (depending on ship size) and the ship is set for a month. You can recover this plat in a single EN Tor dragon run
    Last edited by nibel; 02-23-2014 at 11:04 PM.
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  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    You spend around 20-60k (depending on ship size) and the ship is set for a month.
    It is unclear whether or not this is WAI. I tend to think it isn't, but I suspect they don't much care since they're redoing guild ships anyway.

    Anyway, I am not a fan of your proposal and do not find your arguments for it compelling. If you really want a plat sink, how about an astral shard vendor that sells 1 astral shard for 100,000 plat.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    His "10k per buff" is to BUY them, not use them. He explicitly says you "will not be charged to use them." Like how today you have to spend ~2k plat to buy a +2 stat shrine. Once bought they are free to use as many times as you like.


    I continue to maintain that the ideal duration of ship buffs is permanent until death or logout timer expires. No timer at all. By logout timer, I mean the same mechanic as the phiarlan pendant of time and any number of things. You know how if you log out, then log right back in, you'll still have your buffs, including the pendant of time? But if you log out for more than around 15 minutes all your buffs and clickies (except ship buffs) get reset to full, as well as your hp and sp. Have ship buffs use that same 15 minute counter, or however long it is.

    The idea is then log on, buff up, then keep your buffs for your entire gaming session. You only need to rebuff if you die.
    Wrong that's per time per buff

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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    The ship had sailed on U5. Since they are reworking the system, and it is not yet on Lamannia, it has not sailed yet.

    The game need a plat sink. One of the reasons some people have more plat than they can waste is exactly because there is nothing to buy with plat in quantitites that rival how much plat they make selling trash loot. Back in time, a stack of Heal scrolls was expensive enough to people actually create a hagglebard just to save plat on scroll piles. We need something expensive AND useful, so those people with capped plat can start using it for something, helping the whole game economy.

    Anyway, the proposition is based on the idea that we need a plat sink. If you inherently disagree that we need a plat sink on guild buffs, it is no surprise you didn't like the proposition.

    On a side note, you say my timers are too long. "Buffed until death" can mean anything from 5 minutes into an EE quest, to leveling all the way from 1 to 28 while playing "safe". I think this is just too variable to actually predict an average to set costs and stuff. And "One ame session" is too short if you only have time to log for 1-2 hours per night.
    Completely wrong that game doesn't need a plat sink not all players have plat coming out their ears I have been around longer than most and almost never have more than a couple hundred K plat between all of my characters and usually much less the absolutely last thing we need is a plat sink!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uska View Post
    Completely wrong that game doesn't need a plat sink not all players have plat coming out their ears I have been around longer than most and almost never have more than a couple hundred K plat between all of my characters and usually much less the absolutely last thing we need is a plat sink!
    You know that plat sinks make the AH prices drop, right?
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    I don't care about the AH and you have no proof your idea will do that all it will do is put guild stuff out the range of new players and others who don't have tons of plat I don't have enough time to play to generate the plat your idea would cost me and even if I did I would hate your ideas.

    With increased costs people will want to make more money so AH prices will go up (I cant prove that any more than you can prove your statement which I patently believe to be false)

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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel
    • Non-buff ammenities (tavern, bank, altars, etc) should be the standard and what is used to fill your ship. The buffs do no occupy a slot.
    • Guild buffs should be some kind of plat sink.
    • All guild buffs will stack with every other buff. It should be a reward, not a placeholder while you don't get good gear. For that effect, consider every buff listed as a "Guild Bonus type". No morale, no enhancement, no artifact, no insight, no competence.
    • Guild buffs should last a lot longer. I'll extend on that later, but the 1-hour buff should go.
    I agree with all of these for the most part except for point 2, imho plat sinks create a void in the player base simply because not everybody can play the same amount all of us have different circumstances and as such might not have as much plat as others. There are people in the game who are sat on what 20, 30, 40, 50 million plat (or more) because they can play more than others or got lucky with loot pulls so could sell stuff on etc etc.

    This is a game and is made to be played for fun and entertainment and not to be played like a second full time job.

    As for the rest of your idea I think it's all bad (for the most part) and here is why...

    What you suggest would be a coders nightmare (I assume since I'm not a coder) it would take a lot of time and resources to do this massive overhaul that you suggest and probably wouldn't even work knowing Turbines track record on such things, heck if I didn't know any better I would suggest that you are actually a Turbine employee because how many times have we seen it that they come up with something that is so long and convoluted it's beyond a joke? (Epic TR in the first incarnation for example).

    Keeping things short and simple (K.I.S.S) is in everyone's best interest since it makes for easier coding and makes it easier for players to understand what they hell is going on for example:
    1. Increase the cost of buying the amenity (as in when you place it for the first time), this would be a 1 (one) time cost unless you change the amenity.
    2. Add options to the First Mate's dialogue to do other things besides what he does already (which is not a lot atm to be honest), he could be used to store plat for airship maintenance and other things (this is one of the only things from the OP I actually like) this would create a small plat sink but it also wouldn't take all of the plat people have.
    3. Give the option to the First Mate so you can just take all buffs at once even for people who visit your airship (for Arti's, Druids etc if you have your pet called then they are auto applied to your pet too), they would only have the option of taking all buffs and could even have to pay some small amount of plat (say 2,000 plat) to use this feature which could be added to the guild treasure vault (see the OP's idea on ship maintenance). They can also of course just run round and grab them all individually it will just take longer.
    4. All buffs have no timers and last until death.
    5. All buffs stack with everything else and are changed to Guild Bonus for the purposes of stacking (basically agreeing the with OP).
    6. Purchasing a new airship should not be in Astral Shards it should be PLAT! (the guild I am in is waiting to reach level 80 because we refuse/can't afford to spend the insane amount of money needed to buy the level 55 ship with Astral Shards!), this could be another semi plat sink and would give players a reason to save up their plat.

    I can't think of anything else right now (damn headache).

    One main thing that I do agree on with the OP is that guild ship stuff does need a lot of love and TLC putting in to it but it should also be Astral Shard free.

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  8. #28
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    After reading the OP, I have some thoughts of my own about ship buffs..

    1. Remove the timer from ship buffs. These should last until death or until logout.

    2. Add in a new large buff which will allow you to "one-click" for all the buffs available on your ship, make it cost a fair amount of platinum to purchase and renew. (So yes, you'd have to pay for the one-click as well as keep all the current shrines on the ship up to date. This doesn't replace any buffs, it just consolidates the ones already on your ship.)

    3. Consider upping stat shrines to +4, now that we have 30 levels to play with. Also consider making the elemental buffs scale based on character level. Having 30 resists is a convenience on a level 20 guy. On a level 1-5 guy it's ridiculously OP.

    4. Add an option to teleport to Eveningstar from the top Guild ship navigator.

    5. Leave everything else about the system the same, except revise the airship designs slightly to allow a more open, linear buffing process. No hidden ledges, back rooms, etc.

    6. Leave everything else about the system the same, except revise the airship designs slightly to allow a more open, linear buffing process. No hidden ledges, back rooms, etc. These are an unneeded annoyance.
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uska View Post
    Completely wrong that game doesn't need a plat sink not all players have plat coming out their ears I have been around longer than most and almost never have more than a couple hundred K plat between all of my characters and usually much less the absolutely last thing we need is a plat sink!
    I can't disagree with you more. Just as the richest of players should not be the only ones taken into account for an idea like this, neither should the poorest of players. The median, average players plat piles should be what drives this. Good plat sinks appropriate for the level of toons facing them ARE healthy for a game. People demand insane amounts in trade and in the ah's because they know buyers have the plat available to them. Not juts a few clever or hardcore players, but the average masses. What this does is keeps the good gear to the players who have been around a long time and aren't wasteful with their plat.

    If you have been around longer than most, and truly have only a couple of hundred plat between all your characters (no idea how many that is) you need to realize that your plat management skills aren't the average at all. You can make half your total plat amount in a run through of inspired quarter and dreaming dark purely with vender trashing things. My average there is about 125k platinum. That is just one example, there are a lot of ways to earn plat. My average auction house income is 40k on my lowbie toons, 100k on midranges, and 200+k on high level toons. And I'm not talking hard to farm stuff, just decent items that drop outta my chests and end rewards. I'm not in any way unusual here, I just take the time to throw everything I Don't want on the ah for double it's base price buyout and forget about it til the plat shows up in my mailbox. And very little goes back out other than on spell mats, heal & res scrolls, and some other miscellaneous pots and scrolls as needed to rely less on overworked healers and more on myself.

    This game is desperate for plat sinks. But good ones, that give an actual benefit that the players actually want to buy and not just the kind like the ah where the money goes poof to go poof. Potions of healing that work realistic healing against the actual damage people take without steep penalties to help barbarians and fighters join the byoh groups off the top of my head as an example. Potions of healing amplification would be lovely too.

    The problem with the op here is that it would really be dependent on the pricing being altered by toon level to be in any way equitable for lower level toons that don't have big brother and sister toons to supplement them while they grow. Also, given that we have had them in the current status, it would feel very much like a taking away of plat vs. something that players actually want to buy. Better to come up with someone new to use in order to get the plat out of the game without creating bad player feeling.
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoner81 View Post
    What you suggest would be a coders nightmare (I assume since I'm not a coder)
    About the First Mate giving buffs, I was thinking something like the barter interface. You select the buff you want, pay for it on plat, and it is auto-applied to you (as if you had "traded" for guild renown). How hard would it be to code "platinum", "character level" and "guild level" as the "ingredients", I have no idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by TrinityTurtle View Post
    Economics 101
    Thank you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    About the First Mate giving buffs, I was thinking something like the barter interface. You select the buff you want, pay for it on plat, and it is auto-applied to you (as if you had "traded" for guild renown). How hard would it be to code "platinum", "character level" and "guild level" as the "ingredients", I have no idea.
    That would be a whole new system which wouldn't be that hard I would think since the new barter interface is all over the place now but, it would mean having to add an extra interface to the system which is more time and resources than just tweaking existing systems which already work. The way I read your OP was that it seemed to be a whole new system from the ground up which is why I said what I said but I see your point here though I still think it would be time wasted for reasons already stated/suggested.

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    I like the idea of having someone buff you instead of hitting a bunch of nodes.

    However I think the buffs provided here are a bit extreme. A first lifer could get money from a friend and cap buff beyond any gear; making the pursuit of gear totally worthless. TR characters will just grab whatever junk since their ship buffs can outlast and outperform drops.

    I like the idea of timers based on guild level. I think buffs should drop when dead, but the timer should be a little less extreme. I would recommend 2-3 minutes per guild level. Offering the average guild level the same amount of time that currently exists (saying a lvl 25-26 guild will get 50-78 minutes).

    Having the buffs centralized would allow more waypoint type npc's. So you can use your guildship to get to quests. Like you would really do in the game.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uska View Post
    That is the main thing I am against I am not a new player but that would even hurt me I don't have much play time so I don't have plat.
    You are aware that there's no law saying you MUST buy guild buffs? They're a convenience, not a friggin' requirement to play the game. Heck, I do eE content without ship buffs all the time just because I'm too lazy to go pick them up. I wouldn't be upset if they went away entirely. It's a BONUS--and a minor one at that.

    Heck, I'd say this precise attitude--that quality guild ship buffs are an ENTITLEMENT even for people who JUST STARTED playing--is an indication that they DO need to ramp up the plat sink on the buffs. You might as well declare "I'm a new player but I deserve all the benefits of playing a completionist toon". No. You can learn where the vendors with resistance potions are just like everybody else who started playing before ship buffs even existed. You can pay for house P and house J buffs or turn in collectibles for resist pots. There are *plenty* of options out there to get buffs on your own without getting them free off a guild ship you haven't even contributed to leveling in the first place.

    Then maybe when you join my Zerg TR group thinking you can bum an elite streak off someone who can actually handle one, you won't die in the first 30 seconds because you'll have *some* notion of how to play the game and what's actually required to complete quests successfully.
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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    It is inspired on Housed J/P favor reward. These spells have a negligible cost right now, but the principle is there: Pay for someone to cast a buff on you.

    And no, currently, guild maintenance is not a plat sink. You spend around 20-60k (depending on ship size) and the ship is set for a month. You can recover this plat in a single EN Tor dragon run
    It costs about 100k to redo the buffs on our guild ship. That's waiting till they run down to less that a week, and buying 4 of each.

    You are trying to solve the problem of the relatively small number of people who have more plat than they can figure out how to spend, but that isn't most people. Any amount of cost which is enough to serve as a plat sink for the Scrooge Mcducks would be incredibly punitive to the large majority of players.

    Quantum physics cannot account for the tininess of the violin i would assign to those people with the 'problem' of having too much plat.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seikojin View Post
    However I think the buffs provided here are a bit extreme. A first lifer could get money from a friend and cap buff beyond any gear; making the pursuit of gear totally worthless. TR characters will just grab whatever junk since their ship buffs can outlast and outperform drops.
    Did you missed the line where I say the buffs will be level gated as well? So, even if you are at a level 100 guild, if you just TRed, you can't get access to the most powerful buffs yet.

    So, while a level 1 chracter with money to expend might get a bunch of +1s in different areas, that is not enough to overpower content as Resist 30 stuff is today.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seikojin View Post
    I like the idea of timers based on guild level. I think buffs should drop when dead, but the timer should be a little less extreme. I would recommend 2-3 minutes per guild level. Offering the average guild level the same amount of time that currently exists (saying a lvl 25-26 guild will get 50-78 minutes).
    That might work too, set the level 25 to the current 1 hour, and scaling up from there. Buff costs should be lowered, maybe killing the progressive discount, so low level buffs always will be cheap, while the bunch of +5s can be expensive for difficulty content and rich people. Let me do some math before changing the OP.

    Being short-duration also may put it back on the "expire on death" stage. I personally don't like it that much because on the really challenging content, people will skip the buffing because they can't guarantee they will stay alive during the whole quest. Right now, the buffing is basically free, so you lose nothing. But if you invest plat on it, people might think twice before spending it on something that might be gone after 5 minutes into the quest. There are buffs that currently survive through death (mostly, store potions), so it is not even that it doesn't have a precedent.

    Maybe dying cut off 30 minutes of the buff timer? I don't know if is possible to code something like that.
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  16. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    It costs about 100k to redo the buffs on our guild ship.
    Not anymore; nowadays they are much cheaper. Nibel's estimates are correct, and I alluded earlier that I don't think it's WAI but since they're redoing guild ships anyway I don't think the devs care.

    A brand new buff now lasts 5 weeks instead of 3 days, and replacing a buff with a different one makes it brand new. So, just for an example, on the 1st of every month replace the +2 strength shrine with a mailbox then replace that mailbox with a +2 strength shrine and you now have a 5-week +2 strength shrine for 2500 plat. For crewmen use the silver flame dude as your placeholder. For larges, the cheapest xp shrine. (I think; possibly the stone of change.)

    Doing this costs around 40k for the level 55 astral ship and around 75-80k for the level 85 astral ship. (I'm in two guilds, one with a 55 ship and one with an 85, and I extend the buffs on both every month.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrinityTurtle View Post
    I can't disagree with you more. Just as the richest of players should not be the only ones taken into account for an idea like this, neither should the poorest of players. The median, average players plat piles should be what drives this. Good plat sinks appropriate for the level of toons facing them ARE healthy for a game. People demand insane amounts in trade and in the ah's because they know buyers have the plat available to them. Not juts a few clever or hardcore players, but the average masses. What this does is keeps the good gear to the players who have been around a long time and aren't wasteful with their plat.

    If you have been around longer than most, and truly have only a couple of hundred plat between all your characters (no idea how many that is) you need to realize that your plat management skills aren't the average at all. You can make half your total plat amount in a run through of inspired quarter and dreaming dark purely with vender trashing things. My average there is about 125k platinum. That is just one example, there are a lot of ways to earn plat. My average auction house income is 40k on my lowbie toons, 100k on midranges, and 200+k on high level toons. And I'm not talking hard to farm stuff, just decent items that drop outta my chests and end rewards. I'm not in any way unusual here, I just take the time to throw everything I Don't want on the ah for double it's base price buyout and forget about it til the plat shows up in my mailbox. And very little goes back out other than on spell mats, heal & res scrolls, and some other miscellaneous pots and scrolls as needed to rely less on overworked healers and more on myself.

    This game is desperate for plat sinks. But good ones, that give an actual benefit that the players actually want to buy and not just the kind like the ah where the money goes poof to go poof. Potions of healing that work realistic healing against the actual damage people take without steep penalties to help barbarians and fighters join the byoh groups off the top of my head as an example. Potions of healing amplification would be lovely too.

    The problem with the op here is that it would really be dependent on the pricing being altered by toon level to be in any way equitable for lower level toons that don't have big brother and sister toons to supplement them while they grow. Also, given that we have had them in the current status, it would feel very much like a taking away of plat vs. something that players actually want to buy. Better to come up with someone new to use in order to get the plat out of the game without creating bad player feeling.
    I have zero interest in the AH and I never really pull anything worth selling there and don't desire to waste my limited time on it. We don't need a plat sink just because some players have tons of plat

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uska View Post
    We don't need a plat sink just because some players have tons of plat
    That is not the reason why we need a plat sink.

    So many people having tons of plat is the consequence of a lack of plat sink. Back when Amrath was endgame (to use an example), less people had capped plat all the time because those same people were constantly wasting it on Yugo pots, Heal scrolls, and GS mats. Now they just let the plat pile up because they don't have anything to buy that is not using Astral Shards.
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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    A brand new buff now lasts 5 weeks instead of 3 days, and replacing a buff with a different one makes it brand new.
    I didn't know this until recently. Kind of annoyed I didn't know about it earlier. It doesn't make any sense either... extending an existing buff should be cheaper, but oh well. That's turbine.

    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    • All guild buffs will stack with every other buff.
    Doing that across the board without balancing all other sources would make guild buffs too powerful, and if you did try to balance it, that would then make guild buffs a requirement. Bad. They should generally be kept as an added convenience, not a flat-across-the-board unique source of buffs.

    I'm interested to see what turbine has planned for ships myself. Maybe we'll be able to invite others to the ship if no one's aboard?

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post

    The game need a plat sink. .
    The game may need a plat sink but individuals paying every time they buff is not the way to do it. It is a guild ship and therefore it should be a guild investment. The cost of buying and maintaining the buffs could be high but once purchased they should be free to use by the guild members. It would be nice if there was a way to implement a guild bank account where guild members could donate plat towards ship buffs. Only guild leaders and officers would be able to withdraw from that account and they would only be able to purchase guild ship amenities from that account.

    Non-guild members using a guild's ship buffs could be charged a small amount to use them and the plat from that would go directly into the guild's bank account.

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