I don't make the game, I just beat it by its own rules as best I can. Most of us succeed, perceived imbalances or not.
I shout out when there's a significant bug or issue, but if I have to stoop to complaining about the game overall design, I'm only wasting my time and should be playing something else. You should consider this as well.
If there is anyone to "blame," the players themselves are to be in the sense that imbalance would be demonstrated by the players who maximize the ability and then spread the word to others.
In short, the "Fight Club" rule is continually violated, so it's a matter of time before the devs spot the activity and compare it to other classes (or have other reasons in terms of mechanics) and then decide to nerf it for balance. Again, their game, their rules. We all generally beat the game, either way.
I'm still not sure why Turbine did not code the wraps as tiny weaps that are holded by monks.. if they do so we could even see the weap effects on the monk's hands.. (like holy or poison...)
It would eliminate all the wraps are not weap and would be also a lot easy to code stuff i guess.. ( not as easy as change the descriptions tho )
The reason why handwraps aren't coded as weapons is because the Monk's body is coded as the weapon. Look at the Monk article on the DDO Wiki to see what I mean. One column separates Monks from most; the Unarmed Damage column. Here, even if you fight completely barehanded (no handwraps at all), you still deal incredible damage, and can add any ki elemental and special attack. Your innate unarmed damage works as other weapons might, increasing as you level. The Monk augments the handwraps, not the other way around.
The Monk, by design, is the only class that can fight without a stitch of gear on, at-level, yet still prevail and survive. Not that I'd like to do so, but it can be done.
You can see what your Monk does in terms of damage with handwraps on, in the Detail of your Inventory, as you would with any other weapon. In particularly, the weapon damage modifier is shown and other information. Again, you don't see the general damage because that's part of the Monk itself.
Because of this, early on, the idea of Green Steel handwraps was a PiTA for the devs. Now with Cannith crafting and other special ways to generate handwraps, its not as much as a problem. But we'll likely never see GS wraps as that is older (and stable) code that doesn't need changing for Monks and possibly borking Shroud crafting for everyone else.
The Monk, by design, is the only class that can fight without a stitch of gear on, at-level, yet still prevail and survive. Not that I'd like to do so, but it can be done.[/QUOTE]
Really? An animal form druid works just aswell with healing a pet and summons to boot.
In any content a naked monk could contribute a self healing caster would likely be just as effective too.
@risenfall - If you're willing to splash 3 levels of rogue and use the Weapon Finesse feat, you can spend 6AP on getting dex to damage with light weapons. I am not sure if this works with unarmed, but I would hope it does, given the investment. Update: Nevermind, the wiki says it doesn't work with unarmed or handwraps. Pfft.
And for the record, I'm with fTdOmen on this, the reason why this, and a lot of EDs don't work with unarmed is due to the code. Turbine clearly don't have the resources to sort it out effectively.
Last edited by HGM-Chi; 05-22-2014 at 06:13 PM. Reason: Correction
It's fascinating to me when I see posters complain that the developers must not have this or that and then rail how they're failing. If you don't like the game or its implementation--and can't get employed there to fix what you think is wrong--why play it? I won't spend time complaining about game mechanics that work (even if imperfectly) nor insult the good work that Turbine has done with their resources (or get infractions for speaking nasty).
I'm not sure whether Turbine is just stubborn or they honestly thought they could figure out and stabilize the hw bug issues, but let's face it they made a bad choice. And it's a common mistake when people make bad choices to say "well, we already started down this path" but the truth is the argument for recoding hw as weapons is just as logical/true today as it was back a few year's ago.
Coding hw as weapons doesn't make "the monk is the weapon" not work. For example, if an Epic destiny can add the cold iron property to any weapon wielded than certainly the code can be set up "if Shintao monk is using handwraps then add cold iron property" just as easily. The +w change took care of the "changing base damage for unarmed attacks with monk level" problem. If hw were coded like all other weapons we wouldn't have to to check if every single effect added to the game from here to eternity either is incorrectly being applied to hw when it's not supposed to be, or isn't being applied to hw when it should be.
Annikka (Sorc), Dannikka (F), Jannikka (Rgr)
Tamikka (Bard), Famikka (Rgr)
Bellynda (Cl), Mellynda (M)
The problem with handwraps began with the coding for unarmed strikes itself. Most weapons have a crit profile and base damage as well as modifiers as part of the base weapon itself. Monks with unarmed strike do not use a base weapon for damage and crit profile. Instead they use a value that is coded into the character itself, and modified by the feat, separate from how other weapons are used. Now this was before the change to make everything X[W] based for damage, so unarmed attacks were given a set value for damage, and a crit profile of 20x2 to be modified when needed. This meant that unarmed attacks had to have specific pointers that affected ONLY the unarmed values, and handwraps simply added effects to your attacks.
The problem arose in how to modify the unarmed attacks in the same way that weapons are modified. The coding is built from the ground up, so simply changing handwraps to a weapon type and having feats and enhancements change that weapons values would not be feasible, would end up being clunky and would require an overhaul on nearly every monk implementation so far. So the other option would be to add additional conditions to all modifiers so that they affect the characters unarmed attacks directly as well as normal weapons separately. This leads to having one bonus affect too many different aspects of the game. Ultimately they decided that the current state of handwraps with the available options was perfectly acceptable, and even that those limitations and benefits worked out fine. Up until the large nerfs to Wisdom based monk builds this was for the most part true, as monks gave up being able to cap raw damage with the ability to access special attacks that gave a wide range of utility and power to unarmed builds, with the option to use a weapon. Since the massive nerf to QP and a few other changes I no longer agree with unarmed being in a good place.
And for anyone that wants to even remotely argue that having X thing for Y monk not work because it does in PNP, HANDWRAPS DO NOT EXIST IN PNP. All those nice modifiers and bonuses, that holy burst and other effects would never be added to your weapons, and you have very very very limited options for being able to get magical effects on unarmed attacks in PNP. So stop spitting out your holier than thou attitude because one aspect of PNP doesn't apply to what you want to do in a game that has massively improved upon monks from PNP.
There are some variant rules for enchanting natural weapons in PnP somewhere IIRC, which I imahgine is where handwraps came out of.
Seems to me that monk's coding needs a total overhaul.
The devs did have the choice when they introduced monks to make handwraps a weapon like any other. Handwraps adding values on top of unarmed is more faithful to PnP unarmed strikes, which would be great if they could have done it without issues, but they couldn't and still can't. There's absolutely no need to have the unarmed strike do the base damage and then add the modifiers from handwraps on top in DDO since players will always be equipping handwraps for unarmed fighting. (Whether hw exist or not in PnP isn't relevant).
But you are probably right, I'm probably completely missing something about coding. Maybe it's not possible to do the following:
- if no weapon is equipped, treat the character as if he/she had base handwraps equipped
- monks get + r/s/t/u/v to damage (or 0.5w increments now) at levels a/b/c/d/e
- if handwraps are equipped, certain feats/skills/enhancements add modifiers to damage or other properties to the handwraps (or the character)
Annikka (Sorc), Dannikka (F), Jannikka (Rgr)
Tamikka (Bard), Famikka (Rgr)
Bellynda (Cl), Mellynda (M)
Old monks used to have a die progression that looked something like this:
With this system each time a monk gained unarmed strikes from their granted class feats their unarmed damage base would increase. Old weapons had to be given a base value on the weapon itself, so in the case of handwraps their base damage would have been the lowest possible, or 1d3 because of non-monks. The ONLY WAY to do what you are suggesting to have been such a simple and easy way to solve an issue that wasn't even created yet would have been to code the handwraps to change their base damage for each unarmed strike feat the player had learned.
For perspective that would mean they would have to add the base damage for every tier to each and every handwrap in the game, make a modifier that would have to check the players feats everytime it was equipped, and properly shift this damage to one of 7 possible base damage numbers. Now you may not think this is a lot, but it is. And something like that would have caused WAY MORE ISSUES than it would have solved, which is none. It wouldn't have solved any issues because the only problem with unarmed and handwraps was created in the players minds. While some bugs and the lack of greensteel wraps was possibly a direct result of this change, their overall use was not crippled by any means, ToD rings were still extremely powerful and useful, and a lot of handwrap bugs actually created benefits for the monks.
Last edited by Amideus; 08-06-2014 at 07:19 PM.
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