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  1. #1
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    Unhappy Monks Unarmed. No dex to dmg DDO fail

    Okay this has been bugging me. Finally got VIP and went to do a dex to dmg unarmed monk to find out its impossible. DDO insist that unarmed damage is just that unarmed and aren't really considered weapons. Well this was kind of a kick in the face to me. DDO is based off of 3.5E if I'm right. Which means on page 41 of the players handbook. This was ignored. "A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons (such as the magic fang and magic weapon spells)." Also somewhere in there it also states that an unarmed strike is considered a light melee weapon. I even found it on D&D wiki here. http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Unarmed_Strike Its also considered to be TWF. Now can I get a DDO QA person to tell me why exactly I can't take a couple levels in ranger and get dex to dmg. Seriously. hurt and confused here.
    Last edited by risenfall; 02-13-2014 at 02:31 PM.

  2. #2
    Community Member Munkenmo's Avatar
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    It's working as intended. because since the introduction of monks as a class, and unarmed as a combat style, there has not been a developer employed by turbine who has been capable of actually coding as handwraps a weapon.

    They won't call hand wrap issues bugs as they can't fix them.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by fTdOmen View Post
    It's working as intended. because since the introduction of monks as a class, and unarmed as a combat style, there has not been a developer employed by turbine who has been capable of actually coding as handwraps a weapon.

    They won't call hand wrap issues bugs as they can't fix them.
    I think that's more than a bit disingenuous.

    When unarmed, a Monk's body is the weapon, and Turbine parallels (though isn't required to follow) similar principles in D&D rules for their body's skills and stats to generate damage. An experienced Monk player can enter a quest completely naked and decimate the place with the right application of ki because their fighting prowess isn't entirely wired to a weapon.

    Thus, handwraps augment unarmed damage but are purposefully not coded as weapons since this would create two weapon damage modifiers (weapon and unarmed) on a Monk.

    While we still haven't seen Green Steel handwraps, the reason for this is less likely a coding challenge but that there are many other options to get potent handwraps that use other crafting systems, such as Alchemical crafting, and the developer's time to update the GS system isn't there. With all the goodies at-hand, I'm OK on this now.

    Monks DO get Dexterity to Damage if you train as a Ninja Spy and use piercing/slashing weapons as the requirement. DEX is used as the modifier for attack as well. While Monks don't get Two Weapon Fighting feats automatically, they do benefit greatly from it with better off-hand attacks.

    Please don't try to force-fit DDO rules with D&D--the rules of live gameplay differ because DDO isn't a turn-by-turn based game as it's Pen-and-Paper inspiration. A MMORPG has to play things a little differently. I've played the Neverwinter Nights game series and their Monks aren't the same either. I just accept the conditions and win because of or despite of them.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Official Known Issues
    The Deepwood Stalker enhancement "Improved Weapon Finesse" is not applying to Unarmed attacks or Handwraps.
    Maybe we'll get a fix someday.
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    Quote Originally Posted by risenfall View Post
    Okay this has been bugging me. I got VIP to do a dex to dmg unarmed monk to find out its impossible. DDO insist that unarmed damage is just that unarmed and aren't really considered weapons. Well this was kind of a kick in the face to me. DDO is based off of 3.5E if I'm right. Which means on page 41 of the players handbook. This was ignored. "A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons (such as the magic fang and magic weapon spells)." Also somewhere in there it also states that an unarmed strike is considered a light melee weapon. I even found it on D&D wiki here. http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Unarmed_Strike Its also considered to be TWF. Now can I get a DDO QA person to tell me why exactly I can't take a couple levels in ranger and get dex to dmg. Seriously. hurt and confused here.

    DDO has evvolved away and no longer uses D&D as gospel, more of a bathroom reading material.

    Lots of stuff has changed.. like Vorpal is no longer Slashing based weapons.. you can get vorpal on any weapon now.
    Last edited by JOTMON; 02-13-2014 at 11:00 AM.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by fTdOmen View Post
    It's working as intended. because since the introduction of monks as a class, and unarmed as a combat style, there has not been a developer employed by turbine who has been capable of actually coding as handwraps a weapon.

    They won't call hand wrap issues bugs as they can't fix them.
    I doubt it would be a coding issue. Like the quote below this sentence. Handwraps aren't considered weapons but more as augments. all basic attack rolls and damage would come from the unarmed strike itself. not the handwraps. So the reason we can't get dex to dmg for unarmed combat is because DDO refuses to accept unarmed strikes as a natural melee weapon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spencerian View Post
    I think that's more than a bit disingenuous.

    When unarmed, a Monk's body is the weapon, and Turbine parallels (though isn't required to follow) similar principles in D&D rules for their body's skills and stats to generate damage. An experienced Monk player can enter a quest completely naked and decimate the place with the right application of ki because their fighting prowess isn't entirely wired to a weapon.

    Thus, handwraps augment unarmed damage but are purposefully not coded as weapons since this would create two weapon damage modifiers (weapon and unarmed) on a Monk.

    While we still haven't seen Green Steel handwraps, the reason for this is less likely a coding challenge but that there are many other options to get potent handwraps that use other crafting systems, such as Alchemical crafting, and the developer's time to update the GS system isn't there. With all the goodies at-hand, I'm OK on this now.

    Monks DO get Dexterity to Damage if you train as a Ninja Spy and use piercing/slashing weapons as the requirement. DEX is used as the modifier for attack as well. While Monks don't get Two Weapon Fighting feats automatically, they do benefit greatly from it with better off-hand attacks.

    Please don't try to force-fit DDO rules with D&D--the rules of live gameplay differ because DDO isn't a turn-by-turn based game as it's Pen-and-Paper inspiration. A MMORPG has to play things a little differently. I've played the Neverwinter Nights game series and their Monks aren't the same either. I just accept the conditions and win because of or despite of them.


    Seems all we can is accept it. I just love dex based characters and well when I made a monk expecting to get that full on dex to dmg unarmed bada$$ to find out I couldn't well as a nerd it was heart breaking. I think the only other way I could get this heart breakage is if someone took my legacy of the drow book opened it and took a dump on it. tho the person would end up dead. id still be heart broken.

  7. #7
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    gotta do something to rein in the OP monks....

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    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    gotta do something to rein in the OP monks....
    Well, that's sort of true. If Monks had Dex to Unarmed they could just max Wis/Dex (with acceptable Con) and be done with it. Requiring Str for melee helps spread things out. Sure, Ninja Spy can use Dex for attack/damage now, but then they can't Stunning Fist or Quivering Palm, kinda balances things out.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by risenfall View Post
    I doubt it would be a coding issue. Like the quote below this sentence. Handwraps aren't considered weapons but more as augments. all basic attack rolls and damage would come from the unarmed strike itself. not the handwraps. So the reason we can't get dex to dmg for unarmed combat is because DDO refuses to accept unarmed strikes as a natural melee weapon.

    Seems all we can is accept it. I just love dex based characters and well when I made a monk expecting to get that full on dex to dmg unarmed bada$$ to find out I couldn't well as a nerd it was heart breaking. I think the only other way I could get this heart breakage is if someone took my legacy of the drow book opened it and took a dump on it. tho the person would end up dead. id still be heart broken.
    You can still try the Weapon Finesse feat to work this in with unarmed damage, but many feel this feat isn't particularly effective.

    Quote Originally Posted by ddorimble View Post
    Well, that's sort of true. If Monks had Dex to Unarmed they could just max Wis/Dex (with acceptable Con) and be done with it. Requiring Str for melee helps spread things out. Sure, Ninja Spy can use Dex for attack/damage now, but then they can't Stunning Fist or Quivering Palm, kinda balances things out.
    That's not entirely accurate.

    While Stunning Fist strictly requires unarmed attack, Ninja Spies are no less effective with it if they are going unarmed, with the right WIS. Quivering Palm now works while armed as well, and its DCs are improved by items/feats/enhancements that improve Sunder DCs as well as WIS modifiers.

    EDIT: The Ninjas are apparently getting ninja'd with Update 21, however, where Quivering Palm DCs are returning to the WIS modifier only, but on fail, there is a temporary DC bonus to try again until a kill is recorded.
    Last edited by Spencerian; 02-13-2014 at 12:01 PM. Reason: Correction
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spencerian View Post
    You can still try the Weapon Finesse feat to work this in with unarmed damage, but many feel this feat isn't particularly effective.
    Yeah its not very effective because weapon finesse only changes the attack roll to dex and not the damage roll. so it would be easier to stay with strength based attack rolls if your damage is going to apply to that same stat

  11. #11
    Community Member Munkenmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by risenfall View Post
    I doubt it would be a coding issue. Like the quote below this sentence. Handwraps aren't considered weapons but more as augments. all basic attack rolls and damage would come from the unarmed strike itself. not the handwraps. So the reason we can't get dex to dmg for unarmed combat is because DDO refuses to accept unarmed strikes as a natural melee weapon.
    The entire reason wraps were made "buff type weapons" in the first place is because the devs are incapable of adding new weapon types to the game.

    There has not been a single new type of weapon added ever. It's 100% a coding issue.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by fTdOmen View Post
    The entire reason wraps were made "buff type weapons" in the first place is because the devs are incapable of adding new weapon types to the game.

    There has not been a single new type of weapon added ever. It's 100% a coding issue.
    Nah I can tell you it's not. I'm an independent programmer. This game was built with c/c++ and databases most likely an mySQL database. If that was the issue I could simply fix this by throwing a few commands to the database to add to the categories and add a function which would allow wraps to become weapons. Although they arent weapons but more augments. I would add unarmed as a weapon type because that is the issue not the handwraps.

    Edit* This was a choice by DDO which can easily be fixed.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spencerian View Post
    While Stunning Fist strictly requires unarmed attack, Ninja Spies are no less effective with it if they are going unarmed, with the right WIS. Quivering Palm now works while armed as well, and its DCs are improved by items/feats/enhancements that improve Sunder DCs as well as WIS modifiers.
    I was pointing out they cannot get Dex to Attack/Damage while simultaneously being able to use Stunning Fist/Quivering Palm, not that they suck at it. I was wrong about QP, I missed that change. If Stunning Fist starts working with weapons...that's huge...I would be all over that with a Dex/Wis Ninja Spy Monk...

  14. #14

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    well, for what it is worth, you can use two (only two, AFAIK) handwraps that use the Ninja Spy slashing/piercing dex to damage. One is the level 4 out of 3BC, the other are the Ivy wraps. It is a very limited selection, and they do not come with a stun bonus. I do not believe handwraps with are spiked work. Spencerian do you know if they do?

    Otherwise, ninjas get great use out of short swords and get dex to damage with them. You just can't do stunning fist of course.
    I recommend for low levels the overpowered Tiefling's Assassin blade (also from 3BC). It comes with a crazy threat range (15-20), wounding and poison, so it works strongly in concert with the ninja enhancements (like Sting etc).

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  15. #15
    Community Member Munkenmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by risenfall View Post
    Nah I can tell you it's not. I'm an independent programmer. This game was built with c/c++ and databases most likely an mySQL database. If that was the issue I could simply fix this by throwing a few commands to the database to add to the categories and add a function which would allow wraps to become weapons. Although they arent weapons but more augments. I would add unarmed as a weapon type because that is the issue not the handwraps.

    Edit* This was a choice by DDO which can easily be fixed.

    HAHAHA.

    Given all the bugs handwraps have had over the years, do you honestly believe turbine wouldn't have changed and fixed them if they were capable of doing so.

    There's a lot of client side files that you could browse to see what a mess their databases are.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saekee View Post
    well, for what it is worth, you can use two (only two, AFAIK) handwraps that use the Ninja Spy slashing/piercing dex to damage. One is the level 4 out of 3BC, the other are the Ivy wraps. It is a very limited selection, and they do not come with a stun bonus. I do not believe handwraps with are spiked work.
    They only bypass piercing damage reduction, sadly the ninja spy enhancements don't count them as piercing weapons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fTdOmen View Post
    HAHAHA.

    Given all the bugs handwraps have had over the years, do you honestly believe turbine wouldn't have changed and fixed them if they were capable of doing so.

    There's a lot of client side files that you could browse to see what a mess their databases are.
    You seem to be missing my point. Handwraps aren't the issue. They are meant to only modify unarmed damage. They are not weapons however unarmed is considered a melee weapon type. If they would fix this and give unarmed striking(not handwraps) its proper place in light weapons. The issue with dex to dmg with handwraps would go away. because the dex to dmg would apply to unarmed combat while with handwraps would still get the modified damage. So essientially is what im trying to get across is giving unarmed combat the dex to dmg and then applying the handwrap modifiers. would immediately fix the problem. Again to make sure you get it this time. HANDWRAPS ARE NOT WEAPONS

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    Quote Originally Posted by fTdOmen View Post
    They only bypass piercing damage reduction, sadly the ninja spy enhancements don't count them as piercing weapons.
    Yeah, pretty sure they fixed the Ninja Spy stuff to work off the normal damage type of a weapon. So out are Ivy Wraps and that slashing Quarterstaff, in is Celestia, and I don't know what else.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by ddorimble View Post
    Yeah, pretty sure they fixed the Ninja Spy stuff to work off the normal damage type of a weapon. So out are Ivy Wraps and that slashing Quarterstaff, in is Celestia, and I don't know what else.
    The language in Sting of the Ninja description says it all, purposefully restricting it to work with shortswords, kamas and shuriken only, if I recall (I'm not in-game at present). That's still a pretty large list of weapons.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spencerian View Post
    The language in Sting of the Ninja description says it all, purposefully restricting it to work with shortswords, kamas and shuriken only, if I recall (I'm not in-game at present). That's still a pretty large list of weapons.
    I think they were talking about
    Advanced Ninja Training: While you are centered, you can use your Dexterity modifier for damage with piercing and slashing weapons. You also gain a chance based on your Dexterity score to throw an extra shuriken per attack.

    It used to allow the ivy wraps (which do have peircing damage type) to give dex to damage, the cove gloves never did as they applied a d4 piercing damage rather then adding piercing type to the weapon. They have since changed it so it doesnt work with any handwraps, including the ivy wraps. (the lower lvl scorched wraps have the same named effect, but... not sure if they worked or not. I know first hand the ivy wraps did at one point, but never had a pair of the scorched to try)

    however, we did have a mention to get vorpal strikes to get looked at and possible applied to it... but, since they changed ivy wraps to not work with it I doubt they will get around to that.

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