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  1. #41
    Hero LOOON375's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Impaqt View Post
    There is already enough "Incentive" for EE.

    1: Its more challenging. Isnt this whats really wanted? I see people claim this constantly.... But then we see threads like this pop up. So I'm guessing the challenge really is secondary?
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by ishr View Post
    You have no evidence to support this argument, you use an a posteriori argument to prove causation which is faulty logic, there is much more at play than just loot when it comes to how dev's decide to structure new content. Furthermore, "this is how it's been done" is not a valid argument for why it should continue to be done (kind of the whole reason lamannia exists in the first place). If every new idea was met with the rebuttal "but that's not how it was done in the past, and that proves that we shouldn't try it in the future," there would be no need for feedback.
    huh? I'm using the loot we have been presented with by the devs. Not sure how I could produce any more positive evidence.

    there is no tiered loot in U21. I argued against it when I first saw it . and I'm glad to see it go. Turbine tried it and it apparently failed to produce the desired outcome.

    If they reintroduce it later, I'l argue against it then. In the meantime. I've got no reason to defend it because its done.


    I think you are confusing poor raid design with poor loot design. This misses the point of this thread. Nobody is asking for a crappy EE raid, in fact nobody is even talking about changing the CONTENT of the EE version to begin with (by all accounts on lamannia so far the raids themselves are quite fun!). What we are asking for is a MINOR change to the incentive system to encourage players to pursue EE/EH instead of just the normal EN beatdown, and if lamannia is any indication, EN is definitely going to be a cakewalk once this hits live and all the fully-geared, correctly built characters have at it. We aren't asking for EE to be handing out hammers of Thor, we just want a perk here or there, really ANY reason to reward the extra effort. The hope being that ultimately it will give the raid more staying power and maybe even encourage some players to become more invested in the game than they previously were... $$$
    Nope. I actually find FoT to be a brilliant design. I love the raid itself.

    My comment was that for EE, Raid leaders want it to be all Self healing Ranged toons. Because that makes it the easiest to beat. Its not about strategy.... It realy cant be when your geting hit for 1000+ points of damage.

    The raid isnt a poor design. the insane scaling is. it makes the raid so Un-Fun and now people need different reasons to run it.

    You want special loot. I dont.
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  3. #43
    Hopeless Romantic dunklezhan's Avatar
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    Isn't this how lob and ma work? I also swore it would be good idea but does anyone run those raids?
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Impaqt View Post
    I actually find FoT to be a brilliant design. I love the raid itself.

    You want special loot. I dont.
    So you're not completely opposed to a tiered loot system? I love FOT's design as it allowed players to work up to EE gear.

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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasparion View Post
    You mean drop rates of:

    Normal: 0.1%
    Hard: 0.3%
    Elite: 0.5%

    For the exact same loot isnt enough to have you run on EE?

    How about if they take away the 20th reward list and you can only get the loot in the end chest? That 0.5% is looking mighty nice about now, eh?
    I just wanted to circle back to this math...

    Assuming you get it on your 20th run anyway, the odds of you getting it before that, using those numbers, are:

    N: 1-.99^20 = 18.2%
    H: 1-.97^20 = 45.6%
    E: 1-.95^20 = 64.2%

    So you have 27% more chance to get a loot going from N->H but only 18% more going from H->E. Take into account the real chance of failure on Elite vs Hard, and the cost:benefit ratio for that extra 18% chance becomes questionable. Plus, although its a bit of circular logic, it takes longer to fill an Elite run because most people prefer just grinding through Hard without a real chance of wipe, they'll take the sure thing over the maybe.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackdoguk View Post
    So you're not completely opposed to a tiered loot system? I love FOT's design as it allowed players to work up to EE gear.

    Correct. I have no issue with EE Bonus's that are not exclusive to EE.

    EE Takes a LOT more time.. Bump XP up 25% or more. No Problem.

    Guarantee more comms. THats great.

    Provide a chance for higher teir loot to drop. Wonderful.

    Provide loot that cannot be obtained any other way. No. I will never get onboard with a system like that.
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  7. #47
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Impaqt View Post
    huh? I'm using the loot we have been presented with by the devs. Not sure how I could produce any more positive evidence.

    there is no tiered loot in U21. I argued against it when I first saw it . and I'm glad to see it go. Turbine tried it and it apparently failed to produce the desired outcome.

    If they reintroduce it later, I'l argue against it then. In the meantime. I've got no reason to defend it because its done.


    Nope. I actually find FoT to be a brilliant design. I love the raid itself.

    My comment was that for EE, Raid leaders want it to be all Self healing Ranged toons. Because that makes it the easiest to beat. Its not about strategy.... It realy cant be when your geting hit for 1000+ points of damage.

    The raid isnt a poor design. the insane scaling is. it makes the raid so Un-Fun and now people need different reasons to run it.

    You want special loot. I dont.
    So, in your opinion, raids should be possible to complete during a lunch break?
    Because IMO, something like this don't deserve to be called raid.
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  8. #48
    Community Member blackdoguk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Impaqt View Post
    Correct. I have no issue with EE Bonus's that are not exclusive to EE.

    EE Takes a LOT more time.. Bump XP up 25% or more. No Problem.

    Guarantee more comms. THats great.

    Provide a chance for higher teir loot to drop. Wonderful.

    Provide loot that cannot be obtained any other way. No. I will never get onboard with a system like that.
    Agreed on this! Outcome is bleak however

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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    So, in your opinion, raids should be possible to complete during a lunch break?
    I guess that would depend on your lunch break... I feel 30-45 Minutes is more than reasonable to complete a raid with 1 hour really pushing it.

    I think I'm in a pretty significant majority with that opinion. I guarantee you that if MA and LoB entrances were moves so we didnt have to spend 15+ minutes just getting to the quest they would get run significantly more. that silly run is a Huge time waster and pushed the average completion time of that raid to over 45 minutes.
    Because IMO, something like this don't deserve to be called raid.
    You are certainly entitled to that opinion.
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  10. #50
    2014 DDO Players Council ishr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Impaqt View Post
    I think I'm in a pretty significant majority with that opinion. I guarantee you that if MA and LoB entrances were moves so we didnt have to spend 15+ minutes just getting to the quest they would get run significantly more. that silly run is a Huge time waster and pushed the average completion time of that raid to over 45 minutes.
    you keep saying this and yet you're one of the few in this thread who is absolutely refusing any semblance of EE offering any kind of unique reward, even a token effort such as a one or two items that are minimally better than EN.
    Last edited by ishr; 02-13-2014 at 04:32 PM.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by ishr View Post
    you keep saying this and yet you're one of the few in this thread who is absolutely refusing any semblance of EE offering any kind of unique reward, even a token effort such as a one or two items that are minimally better than EN.
    I think the real question here is Why should it?

  12. #52
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    Default One of the reasons why I want better EE loot

    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    I think the real question here is Why should it?
    Many people here have already explained multiple reasons on multiple occasions regarding why.

    To explain again, here's one of my reasons for why: incentive. The incentive loot would actually be lower ML of the same EN loot, or it would be new augments, or it would be extra effects added to the EN loot.

    Now assume for a while with me...assume incentive works on getting mass quantities of players actually playing the quest or raid for years instead of months. That it gets more of the players of EN and EH characters to develop their characters into EE capable characters to reliably farm for the EE loot.

    The effect of incentive would then be:
    longevity of mass quantities of players actually playing the quest or raid
    which translates to the longevity of an end game
    which translates to the longevity of DDO.

    Now assume for a while with me...assume incentive does not work. Please help me list the negatives due to the extra EE incentive loot (the incentive loot could actually be lower ML of the same EN loot, or it could be new augments, or it could be extra effects added to the EN loot):
    1) it causes more elitism divisions between the DDO community.
    2) ?
    3) ?
    4) ? <--help me out here... Seriously ...maybe I'm really missing your ideas or knowledge...maybe I skimmed over something important.

  13. #53

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    My vote is to set all raid chest loot % the same for all difficulties:

    EN: 1 chest
    EH: 2 chests
    EE: 4 chests

    Shroud did the incentive system right, so just use that going forward. EE is a much bigger jump from EH than HE is from HH, though, so instead of three chests make it four.

    EDIT: This assumes the loot is the same on all difficulties, which I think they should be. It should just be way easier to get the loot you want on EE than it is on EH or EN. Significantly, visibly easier. An increased % isn't visible. Two more chests is visible.

  14. #54
    2014 DDO Players Council ishr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    It should just be way easier to get the loot you want on EE than it is on EH or EN. Significantly, visibly easier. An increased % isn't visible. Two more chests is visible.
    yeah especially when that increase is 0.3% (though i dont have this substantiated, its what someone else posted)

  15. #55
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    The generation of just "give me" no work no effort just " give me" give me now give me every thing "give me give me"

    Die already
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  16. #56
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamode_Corebasher View Post
    Many people here have already explained multiple reasons on multiple occasions regarding why.
    I have read their reasoning, but, I disagree with it.

    As opposed to saying "hey, here is how we do it" lets try another approach: Lets ask you to re-look at your own points:

    To explain again, here's one of my reasons for why: incentive. The incentive loot would actually be lower ML of the same EN loot, or it would be new augments, or it would be extra effects added to the EN loot.
    Small Correction: This is not a reason for the Incentive, this is simply the Incentive Itself. Just saying on this.

    Now assume for a while with me...assume incentive works on getting mass quantities of players actually playing the quest or raid for years instead of months.
    What IF, this has the opposite effect, and players opt to give up quickly once they realize they need to do EE or not bother

    IE: They simply opt out of even bothering at all, because they realize they can't do EE, and thus, really, in the end, have no incentive to run the raid, because all that they will get for their efforts will be second-class gear.

    That it gets more of the players of EN and EH characters to develop their characters into EE capable characters to reliably farm for the EE loot.
    What if: It does the exact opposite, and like the Bravery Bonus which forced people to do elite due to incentives, it ultimately turns people off from even bothering with the end game.

    The effect of incentive would then be:
    longevity of mass quantities of players actually playing the quest or raid
    which translates to the longevity of an end game
    which translates to the longevity of DDO.
    What if: It has the Opposite Effect, and Translates into less people even bothering to buy the raid/adventure pack/expansion, because they don't want to have to settle for second-class gear and items.

    Now assume for a while with me...assume incentive does not work. Please help me list the negatives due to the extra EE incentive loot (the incentive loot could actually be lower ML of the same EN loot, or it could be new augments, or it could be extra effects added to the EN loot):
    1) it causes more elitism divisions between the DDO community.
    This is a good start:

    So what else do think could happen?

    Do you think the less then top players who would be willing to risk the new raids will be tossed into the Deep end of the pool as opposed to hand held into it, where they will be expected to do elite or go home, because no vet in their right mind would do EH or EN because the loot is not even worth it, and thus perhaps this will turn off even more players from the game? Is that a Possibility?

    Do think it will hurt the availability of the end game to the masses, because their gear (No matter how close to the EE, EH gear it is) will be viewed as Second-Class gear, the items of a failure, and thus turn even more players off? Is that a Possibility?

    Do you think it will hurt sales, because a large chunk of the players base will realize with the tiered loot, they will be required to go elite, or go home, and will opt to Go Home. Is that a Possibility?

    Just Wondering.

    I mean, you have your feelings on it, if you think that there is no downside, that nothing can go wrong with this, and it will be all for the better, then keep at it, and I'll hope you're right.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    My vote is to set all raid chest loot % the same for all difficulties:

    EN: 1 chest
    EH: 2 chests
    EE: 4 chests

    Shroud did the incentive system right, so just use that going forward. EE is a much bigger jump from EH than HE is from HH, though, so instead of three chests make it four.

    EDIT: This assumes the loot is the same on all difficulties, which I think they should be. It should just be way easier to get the loot you want on EE than it is on EH or EN. Significantly, visibly easier. An increased % isn't visible. Two more chests is visible.
    This^
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  18. #58
    2014 DDO Players Council ishr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    I have read their reasoning, but, I disagree with it.

    As opposed to saying "hey, here is how we do it" lets try another approach: Lets ask you to re-look at your own points:



    Small Correction: This is not a reason for the Incentive, this is simply the Incentive Itself. Just saying on this.



    What IF, this has the opposite effect, and players opt to give up quickly once they realize they need to do EE or not bother

    IE: They simply opt out of even bothering at all, because they realize they can't do EE, and thus, really, in the end, have no incentive to run the raid, because all that they will get for their efforts will be second-class gear.



    What if: It does the exact opposite, and like the Bravery Bonus which forced people to do elite due to incentives, it ultimately turns people off from even bothering with the end game.



    What if: It has the Opposite Effect, and Translates into less people even bothering to buy the raid/adventure pack/expansion, because they don't want to have to settle for second-class gear and items.



    This is a good start:

    So what else do think could happen?

    Do you think the less then top players who would be willing to risk the new raids will be tossed into the Deep end of the pool as opposed to hand held into it, where they will be expected to do elite or go home, because no vet in their right mind would do EH or EN because the loot is not even worth it, and thus perhaps this will turn off even more players from the game? Is that a Possibility?

    Do think it will hurt the availability of the end game to the masses, because their gear (No matter how close to the EE, EH gear it is) will be viewed as Second-Class gear, the items of a failure, and thus turn even more players off? Is that a Possibility?

    Do you think it will hurt sales, because a large chunk of the players base will realize with the tiered loot, they will be required to go elite, or go home, and will opt to Go Home. Is that a Possibility?

    Just Wondering.

    I mean, you have your feelings on it, if you think that there is no downside, that nothing can go wrong with this, and it will be all for the better, then keep at it, and I'll hope you're right.
    Solution: make the EE rewards a nice perk but not worlds better than EN. incremental rewards for a much greater challenge. that way nobody is at a severe disadvantage if they don't run EE, and there's no pressure of YOU HAVE TO RUN EE or you're missing out in some major way. a green slot instead of yellow. +11 instead of +10. oh wait, that's already how they're doing it, and it works and people are happy with it! why change this formula for a raid? i don't know.

  19. #59
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ishr View Post
    Solution: make the EE rewards a nice perk but not worlds better than EN. incremental rewards for a much greater challenge. that way nobody is at a severe disadvantage if they don't run EE, and there's no pressure of YOU HAVE TO RUN EE or you're missing out in some major way. a green slot instead of yellow. +11 instead of +10. oh wait, that's already how they're doing it, and it works and people are happy with it! why change this formula for a raid? i don't know.
    Does it really work?

    Is the majority of the player base in fact happy with it?

    That I guess is a matter of your perspective on it, if that is what you believe due to your sampling, I'll leave you to it, and thus you can champion your stand.

    The fact that there are people on this very topic that passionately disagree with you, might be indicative that it's not working as well as you might think it is, just saying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    I have read their reasoning, but, I disagree with it.

    As opposed to saying "hey, here is how we do it" lets try another approach: Lets ask you to re-look at your own points:



    Small Correction: This is not a reason for the Incentive, this is simply the Incentive Itself. Just saying on this.



    What IF, this has the opposite effect, and players opt to give up quickly once they realize they need to do EE or not bother

    IE: They simply opt out of even bothering at all, because they realize they can't do EE, and thus, really, in the end, have no incentive to run the raid, because all that they will get for their efforts will be second-class gear.



    What if: It does the exact opposite, and like the Bravery Bonus which forced people to do elite due to incentives, it ultimately turns people off from even bothering with the end game.



    What if: It has the Opposite Effect, and Translates into less people even bothering to buy the raid/adventure pack/expansion, because they don't want to have to settle for second-class gear and items.



    This is a good start:

    So what else do think could happen?

    Do you think the less then top players who would be willing to risk the new raids will be tossed into the Deep end of the pool as opposed to hand held into it, where they will be expected to do elite or go home, because no vet in their right mind would do EH or EN because the loot is not even worth it, and thus perhaps this will turn off even more players from the game? Is that a Possibility?

    Do think it will hurt the availability of the end game to the masses, because their gear (No matter how close to the EE, EH gear it is) will be viewed as Second-Class gear, the items of a failure, and thus turn even more players off? Is that a Possibility?

    Do you think it will hurt sales, because a large chunk of the players base will realize with the tiered loot, they will be required to go elite, or go home, and will opt to Go Home. Is that a Possibility?

    Just Wondering.

    I mean, you have your feelings on it, if you think that there is no downside, that nothing can go wrong with this, and it will be all for the better, then keep at it, and I'll hope you're right.
    Good points and thanks for your perspective...and I agree that your "What IFs" are present and actual for some players.
    I also feel that more good will come from adding incentives to keep us coming back to replay the content.
    That more good will come from adding incentives for newer players or typical EN and EH players will strive for.
    I know that without incentives, I will play the content for fun and enjoyment and challenge at first, and then to help friends and guildies get that one piece they need. Then every so often (once every other month maybe) join a pug to help the community. So after the fun/enjoyment/challenge is gone (at most, 20 runs each), I won't be hosting or filling many LFMs...and from my experiences and observations, neither will others...
    ...and LFM's taking too much time to fill...I'm sure you've probably experienced those...not fun.
    Also, I really believe the incentive should not be an Uber jump in item power.

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